The great big Generals Handbook 2019 Discussion Topic

[Zanzou]

2 hours ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

I have pre-ordered it anyway, hope there is still unleaked work.....

I don't see how, reviewers have gone through page by page on youtube.

[whispersofblood]

11 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

Haven't read through all the new battle plans, but weren't most of the power builds already pretty movement intensive.  If this puts even more emphasis on movement isn't this just going to make shooting heavy lists even less efficient, making things like FEC even stronger?

The short answer is mostly yes, but slightly no. I think DoK are a very good example of this, they are the personification of great over short distances. They are very fast, across medium distances, going forward. But take a battleplan like the new shifting objectives, where you are generally ok in the middle, but that could change on a die roll. Now they have to move laterally (the objectives are further apart now) , stay in range of your buff heroes, and generate enough attacks to kill big units, or not get chaffed up. You can see how there is a lot more play in there for non-top tier factions to play the mission.  Arcane power, the objective is available to any hero now, so factions have a lot more flexibility in how they take on the Cauldron or Morathi when they are sat on an objective, and they aren't exactly going to take yours with one of their Hags. You can see how these small changes in the battleplan open up space for strategies to be a little more applicable even when the distance between the factions remain large. 

IDK got two of its most important pieces when it comes to mobility hit by point increases, the soulscryer and Morrsarr

We are still waiting for Skaven and FEC of course.

SCE got a boost to their vanguard which gives them very good mobility

[TheCovenLord]

On 6/18/2019 at 10:42 PM, Qrow said:

Ahh... so the archregent is a 30 point model, that is totally balanced and in no way breaks any semblance of point efficiency 😣

Yeah, no idea what GW was thinking these past few battletomes. Feels like they just decided to completely change the baseline power of the game and somehow thought it wouldn't frustrate the rest of us.

I won't lie. I think this is exactly what happened. Somewhere, someone made the decision to switch to DoK (esque) as being the new baseline (so it seems). No longer are base infantry hittings and wounding on 4's, it seems to be quite a shift to 3's (anecdotal, I am basing my assumption on feeling and what I play against), which used to be reserved for elites or the factions have been given cheap/free ways to buff it to those levels (still from the factions I play against).

 

I don't think its inherently wrong or bad, I do prefer slower games but if the new baseline is more aggressive than all the other factions have to be buffed to keep up. We just happen to be in that awkward transition period coupled with some non issues on GW's part on making decisions for which factions will/won't be truly supported. I really hope they just slash the compendium factions completely if there are no real plans for a tome/boosts to power levels they are just a trap for new players. 

 

On that note I have to say I hoped that GW would utilize the app they made as more of a "living" ruleset. Its one of the things I miss about privateer press. Faction changes were dropped and the community allowed to test them and give live feedback. The rules were all on the app and changes made several times before full release. GW really needs to do this if they want their game to make larger strides towards relative balance. 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by TheCovenLord

[5kaven5lave]

I guess the question is are Skaven and FEC new baseline though? Looking at Khorne and Fyreslayers (maybe Gitz if you like though it came out first) it looks more and more like those 2 books are undercosted / overpowered exceptions to me. 

[Dead Scribe]

Back to back undercosted and over powered exceptions at that

[prochuvi]

1 hour ago, 5kaven5lave said:

I guess the question is are Skaven and FEC new baseline though? Looking at Khorne and Fyreslayers (maybe Gitz if you like though it came out first) it looks more and more like those 2 books are undercosted / overpowered exceptions to me. 

Those two books seems overpower and out of balance,easier nerf HARD ( not the joke nerf of this gh to idk per example)those 2 books than buff the other tomes.

Fec need get the free sumon nerfed,the 1-3 extra attack spell need be as 2 or 3 more hard to cast.and the comand trait to double attack must dissapear or only work for weak units as gouls because a dragon with 3 extra attacks,double attacking and allways attack first cant be and isnt aceptable 

Skavens with a increase of 40-80 to verminlords and to every warp weapon is fine

[Tropical Ghost General]

1 hour ago, prochuvi said:

Fec need get the free sumon nerfed,the 1-3 extra attack spell need be as 2 or 3 more hard to cast.and the comand trait to double attack must dissapear or only work for weak units as gouls because a dragon with 3 extra attacks,double attacking and allways attack first cant be and isnt aceptable 

So if all of that is done to FEC, what are they left with as an army? 

[Kelsicle]

16 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

So if all of that is done to FEC, what are they left with as an army? 

Agreed, that seems a bit of a heavy handed approach. The problem with FEC is Gristlegore, and the problem with Gristlegore is that it allows all these powerful buffs to be stacked. In my opinion it would be enough  to take away either always attacks first OR attack twice. Combine this with a rework of the points to better accomodate the summoning and I think they will fall back in line.

Skaven are the bigger issue, I don’t think points adjustments will be enough to fix that circus.

[PJetski]

I think the best way to nerf FEC is to limit their summoning to 1 unit per turn, regardless of how many summons they have available.

[prochuvi]

49 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

So if all of that is done to FEC, what are they left with as an army? 

Not all those changues at the same time,i said those are the over the top things

[Qrow]

So what about the upcoming fyreslayers nerf? I have seen people calling for/expecting to see hearthguard beserkers go up 20 points AND lose their horde bonus, but if they did that it would be the single biggest nerf to a unit in all AoS, it would be a 240 point increase in the cost of the unit.

While I understand it is overperforming, I can't imagine FS remaining competetative with such a big nerf. I could see the horde bonus going or an increase in cost, but both together would be overkill.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Qrow

[Chikout]

FEC already got a slight nerf with the command point changes. There are a few subtle changes that would help. Moving the mount trait to reroll wounds would prevent fishing for sixes. The arch regent should go up to at least 250 points and the terrorgheist should go up to 450 or so. To deal with the gristlegore problem I would make the general have the option to strike first or use feeding frenzy but not both in the same combat phase. 

As for Skaven I would rework the endless spell to have a much smaller range and remove the modifiers for being in range of more than one vortex. I would move the Grey seer to one cast and increase points on the plague monks, all the vermin Lords and the bell.

Slaanesh is more difficult. They have some very strong abilities but their fragility is a very obvious weakness. I see Slaanesh losing all their heroes before they summon being a very common problem. Maybe changing the dice roll on the locus, but that end up being too big a nerf. 

Fyreslayers having a single death star unit with limited mobility in a game that usually has multiple objectives are not unreasonably powerful overall. 

As for the new base line,  there are three books out the 13 aos 2 books that are out of whack. The other 10 books are pretty well balanced against each other. They have already brought Dok down a bit. We may yet see a FAQ change that brings them down more. If GW can bring Skaven and FEC into line, the game will be in a very good place going forward.  With at least four more books to come this year if they can keep those with khorne, Gloomspite and Sylvaneth rather than FEC and Skaven we could end the year with a very interesting competitive scene. 

It really does hinge on what gw does in the FAQ. If GW can get it out as soon as possible it would be great. 

[Kitsumy]

1 hour ago, Qrow said:

So what about the upcoming fyreslayers nerf? I have seen people calling for/expecting to see hearthguard beserkers go up 20 points AND lose their horde bonus, but if they did that it would be the single biggest nerf to a unit in all AoS, it would be a 240 point increase in the cost of the unit.

While I understand it is overperforming, I can't imagine FS remaining competetative with such a big nerf. I could see the horde bonus going or an increase in cost, but both together would be overkill.

Hearthguard berserkers need +40 point increase. Or +20 and remove the atack 2 times batallion. Rigth now they are absurd. Every elite unit ( tipical unit with around 20 atacks at 3+3+ -1rend) usually cost around 130-140 with 10ws and 4 or 5 save. But bersekers do that dmg plus the 5 trhowing axes. Have 2" range on his weapons( thats absolute huge with  bases bigger than 25) have 10w. And a 5 armor. But... If they are cloose to a hero they get a 4+ fnp....

 

So rigth now they are the tankiest elite unit on the game. With the best dps in the game. And u could think they would be most expensive one. But noo.they are the cheapest one. And to add salt there they have a batallion to atack 2 times omg. So yeah. They must be 140 minimun without chance to atack 2 times or 160 and keeping the batallion.

 

But also have to change the vulkites. They should go down to 140 i think. Cant go lower since they have 20w at 5+ doing 11 dmg at melee and having the throwing axes. But if they balance the hearthguard i think the vulkites could get some love since even with those op hearthguard fyreslayer arent cloose to fec.skaven.dok.lon. levels tourneywise. At least untill now

[Qrow]

2 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

Hearthguard berserkers need +40 point increase. Or +20 and remove the atack 2 times batallion. Rigth now they are absurd. Every elite unit ( tipical unit with around 20 atacks at 3+3+ -1rend) usually cost around 130-140 with 10ws and 4 or 5 save. But bersekers do that dmg plus the 5 trhowing axes. Have 2" range on his weapons( thats absolute huge with  bases bigger than 25) have 10w. And a 5 armor. But... If they are cloose to a hero they get a 4+ fnp....

 

So rigth now they are the tankiest elite unit on the game. With the best dps in the game. And u could think they would be most expensive one. But noo.they are the cheapest one. And to add salt there they have a batallion to atack 2 times omg. So yeah. They must be 140 minimun without chance to atack 2 times or 160 and keeping the batallion.

 

But also have to change the vulkites. They should go down to 140 i think. Cant go lower since they have 20w at 5+ doing 11 dmg at melee and having the throwing axes. But if they balance the hearthguard i think the vulkites could get some love since even with those op hearthguard fyreslayer arent cloose to fec.skaven.dok.lon. levels tourneywise. At least untill now

I think you touched on a part of the problem, without the hearthguard being OP, what else do FS have? If they do increase the hearthguard then what else do FS have? They aren't touching the level of the top 4 armies and if you take away the one gimmick they have then it may just tank them completely. I would be more inclined to massively increase the cost of the battalion and then remove the horde bonus. If they increase the battalion by say... 60ish, then that alone would be a 180 point increase in the points of that build, which is higher than most other OP armies received.

If they did increase them by 40, then a max unit will cost 960 points. FS main weakness is board control at the moment, very few units and it relies solely on one unit to carry weight. I think part of the problem is that, with so few units, it become hard to balance them. If one unit is terrible, then the others must be good to make up for it.

All in all, fyreslayer need a bridging unit like gore-gruntas or something. More variety so that the entire roster isn't tanked if they nerf one unit. So come on GW, dwarfs riding smaller dragons or something.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Qrow

[prochuvi]

Easy to balance

Vulkites 130

Heqrthguard berzerker 150

Magma runesmiter 240 

Magma runeson 250

Magma runefater 260

Every stupid wholy witing changued back to within

 

 

[5kaven5lave]

Do they update the base sizes and stuff when a new GHB comes out? Can’t remember. Want to see them confirm Skryre Acolytes on 32s (or not). 

[ledha]

9 hours ago, Qrow said:

So what about the upcoming fyreslayers nerf? I have seen people calling for/expecting to see hearthguard beserkers go up 20 points AND lose their horde bonus, but if they did that it would be the single biggest nerf to a unit in all AoS, it would be a 240 point increase in the cost of the unit.

While I understand it is overperforming, I can't imagine FS remaining competetative with such a big nerf. I could see the horde bonus going or an increase in cost, but both together would be overkill.

they can remain competitive, fyreslayers players will just have to think a bit harder than throwing a deathstar unit in the middle of the ennemy army and killing everything with it. I mean, godmamnit guys, 5 hearthguard berserkers at 120 pts have nearly the same damage output than stormcast retributors at 200 pts, it's a complete joke.

Sure, the old fyreslayer book where they just had to deepstrike 90 vulkites berserker on objectives and see if the opponent could shift them over objectives (spoilers : the opponent couldn't 90% of the time) to win didn't helped them, but i'm sure there is some players here and there who can do good thing without an overpowered unit

Edited June 21, 2019 by ledha

[whispersofblood]

It's a MV 4 deathstar... And some soft, targetable heroes. I really don't see why people are struggling. If your armies only ability to attack at range is an arcane bolt that is a construction issue that you created.

[Qrow]

18 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

It's a MV 4 deathstar... And some soft, targetable heroes. I really don't see why people are struggling. If your armies only ability to attack at range is an arcane bolt that is a construction issue that you created.

To be honest, I can see the reason some people are calling for a nerf. It is the people calling for a 40 point nerf that I disagree with, especially in conjunction with removing the horde bonus.

It is also frustrating when they act like a 300+ point jump on a list is not a big deal, especially on an army that is not considered to be one of the most broken or dominating tournaments. Try telling a skaven or FeC player that you want to see there competative lists go up 300 or more points and see how popular the idea will be. Even DoK didn't jump up 300 points, and they are way more dominating than FS.

Add in that the unit is one of only three in the entire army and it is a delicate balance. Do they need a nerf? Probably, but no matter how much you say "adapt and play another way" it is difficult with such an extremely small number of units to choose from.

Hell, most of the people complain about them getting to attack twice, so just up the cost of the battalion and remove horde discount, done.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Qrow

[RuneBrush]

22 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

It's a MV 4 deathstar... And some soft, targetable heroes. I really don't see why people are struggling. If your armies only ability to attack at range is an arcane bolt that is a construction issue that you created.

I will say that for some people (myself included), building an army just to snipe out characters isn't really something that's particularly enjoyable and kind of goes against the spirit of the game.  Not saying you shouldn't include some tools, but that doesn't really resolve the actual issue that deathstar builds shouldn't be an auto-include.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

they can remain competitive, fyreslayers players will just have to think a bit harder than throwing a deathstar unit in the middle of the ennemy army and killing everything with it. I mean, godmamnit guys, 5 hearthguard berserkers at 120 pts have nearly the same damage output than stormcast retributors at 200 pts, it's a complete joke.

 

I said that Hearthguard Berzerkers would be absurd from the start and no one believed me.

next Point Update in 12 months, so they won‘t change for a year now.

anyway. I preordered the GHB for the cool rules additions. I am really stoked to try Darklings and Dispossessed in Meeting Engagement battles!

[whispersofblood]

30 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

I will say that for some people (myself included), building an army just to snipe out characters isn't really something that's particularly enjoyable and kind of goes against the spirit of the game.  Not saying you shouldn't include some tools, but that doesn't really resolve the actual issue that deathstar builds shouldn't be an auto-include.

I don't really understand the spirit of the game argument... The rules make characters targetable therefore it is within the spirit of the rules to target the characters. You don't have to build your army to do that, just take some shooting and an endless spell or two, it's 5 wound heroes with meh armour.

Making HGB beserkers more expensive doesn't change the nature of the army. Even if you don't take the attack twice wsb the deathstar remains, it just doesn't kill as fast. You'll still charge it and die, and your issue will remain. 

I had assumed we had dealt with deathstar in the mist of time. You just don't fight them.

But the question remains do you play the game to defeat the army or win the battleplan. Matched play isn't about killing the army, it's about getting more points on the board.

 

[Karragon]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

I said that Hearthguard Berzerkers would be absurd from the start and no one believed me.

next Point Update in 12 months, so they won‘t change for a year now.

anyway. I preordered the GHB for the cool rules additions. I am really stoked to try Darklings and Dispossessed in Meeting Engagement battles!

They'll be updated in the GHB FAQ in early July

Quote

We’re committed to keeping Warhammer Age of Sigmar as awesome as possible, and so, with this year’s General’s Handbook, we’ve gone the extra mile. Usually, books published in the immediate lead-up to the General’s Handbook would not see points changes. However, to make sure your Pitched Battles are as balanced as possible, we’ll be releasing an early (and free) points update to the most recent battletomes – for reference, that’s Skaven, Blades of Khorne, Fyreslayers, Gloomspite Gitz and Flesh-eater Courts. Keep an eye out for this – and the General’s Handbook 2019 FAQ – in early July.

Personally I've had no trouble with HGB death star, I just don't go near it, it's so slow that you can just run circles round it and not engage

[ledha]

1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

It's a MV 4 deathstar... And some soft, targetable heroes. I really don't see why people are struggling. If your armies only ability to attack at range is an arcane bolt that is a construction issue that you created.

A MV4 deathstar in a army with deepstrike, run+charge, bonus movement and reroll charge. Not a very valid argument. Many armies are slower

 

Edited June 21, 2019 by ledha

[whispersofblood]

2 minutes ago, ledha said:

A MV4 deathstar in a army with deepstrike, run+charge, bonus movement and reroll charge. Not a very valid argument.

 

I play DoK so I understand these mechanics. They don't deep strike because then they lose out on the save increase. You mitigate run charge by slamming something 3.1" away limiting their movement even more. They only get 5 turns of movement, if you don't limit their extra 2d6 of movement from charging they can get at best maybe 18-20" from their dz, in the whole game.

The only mission I can see as difficult would be take and hold or knife to the heart. At a tournament you just play for the minor, get your secondaries and accept you got a bad draw. 

The same way my local dealt with dwarf gunlines. Just deploy on your board edge and take the draw. Eventually people stopped bringing dwarf gunlines.