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RuneBrush

The great big Generals Handbook 2019 Discussion Topic

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This looks like an amazing general's handbook.  The more videos and podcasts from the preview mechanic the more hyped I am to generate some armies and play some campaign games in Alixia.  I'm even going to start doing matched play as a regular thing with a meeting engagement league that's starting up nearby.  I'm sure I'll get stomped by anyone with a more competitive gearing, but I'm still going to just take the stuff I wanted to paint.

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11 hours ago, Matador said:

oh contraire mon frere, 

The Guard get's +1 at 20, +2 at 30, and +3 at 40.  More importantly, they have the militia weapon option that gives them 14" range attack! and the melee attack as well and remember units shoot through themselves so the entire unit will fire a volley at 2 or 3 to hit before piling in with a 2 to hit. That's twice the attacks on your turn.  Also, the guard have counter charge which can buy you some sweet free movements on your opponent's turn. Finally if need be you can pick the halberd build for -1 rend if you want, or the sword build for 4 saves, rerolling 1's for both with shields, but honestly I always pick the militia for the much high damage output.   

  Granted, the warriors have much better beards. 

In case of the -1 Rend. Warriors have Double-Handed Duardin Axes to fill that role (wounding on 3+) that Halberts have for Freeguild Guard. And if you need 30 models to hit as well as Warriors do with there axes or hammers (even after losing one model) it means, that you have to pay 3 times the price. So you can basicly fill the entire battleline of 2000 points for the same amount of points one Unit of Freeguild would cost to play effectivly and the rest of the 1760 Points can be invested in constantly stronger stuff (thats most likely the point why warriors get a little more expensive, even it is not much).

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+++ MOD HAT +++

Come on folks, let's keep this on track here - this is a thread for discussing the new Generals Handbook.  It's not a thread for discussion where the new handbook has got it wrong - it's not even out yet...

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13 hours ago, Matador said:

Skip the rest and go with the last Mate!  my Chariot list "Billy Blake and the Blue Boys Batallion"   

Picked up an extra 140 free points to play with, and it was magic before. The one bit of advice is don't get suckered into using the points to pick up the Warpflame host... its a mug's move.  The host's positioning needs conflict with the strength of the list.  

I remember your list and it looks really strong, but dude, I have 3 charriots and I am not willing to buy the rest to get the dozen needed for the list... Too many projects on going at the same time.

Anyways keep us posted on your results, maybe I will change my mind ^^ 
Also, curious to see a picture of your army, might be nice to just have so many charriots

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, prochuvi said:

2053414898_ScreenShot2019-06-18at11_44_5

Sorry but slanesh is overpower,they have skyrocket in tournaments and every tournament they get more and more wins,soon they gonna be at the top with skaven,fec and dok

Interesting rankings, don't completely agree but AA is prob where slaanesh belongs.  As for the statistics, their win percentage is certainly putting the book in the top 4 or 5, though that is a bit misleading as they were doing extremely well before the new book came out; I wish honest wargamer would seperate out their stats pre and post book releases.  Especially in regards to the # of high tourney placings they have had most of the 2.2 placing's they got were actually before the new book came out.  They are certainly a strong book, but I wouldn't call them broken.  They have potentially 3 or 4 top 3 finishes in the 2 months since the new book came out, 2 of which came in the exact same 33 person tournament, the other being a 3rd place finish.  They also had a 1st place finish the week after the book was released in a 22 person tourney (EDIT: confirmed that this 1st place occured under pre-tome rules so it doesn't count).  That is simultaneously a very small sample and not nearly as impressive as FEC, LoN, and DoK in same timeframe.  Heck even the Khorne book you were saying was so much worse, has only 1 less top 3 finish in the same time frame.  Seems pretty balanced to me in comparison to the other new books that have come out this year.  They are clearly a very strong book, but I think your definition of "OP" is a bit too broad.

 

Edit: I would absolutely put them in the AA tier, but I would not define that tier as broken.  S is where broken books belong.  Also There is no way Nurgle and SCE are at the same level as deepkin or fireslayers, Both of the latter should be at the AA tier with slaanesh imo, while A tier should be expanded.

Edited by tripchimeras
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2 hours ago, tripchimeras said:

There is no way Nurgle and SCE are at the same level as deepkin or fireslayers, Both of the latter should be at the AA tier with slaanesh imo, while A tier should be expanded.

Nice post,i didnt expend so many time reading slanesh results so maybe they arent so broken as i tougth.

Also i agree 100% with you idoneth and fyreslayers must be at aa also i would put goblins and khorne  at "a" but didnt did this tier,i copy\paste it from other user but was pretty close to the meta.

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18 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Come on folks, let's keep this on track here - this is a thread for discussing the new Generals Handbook.  It's not a thread for discussion where the new handbook has got it wrong - it's not even out yet...

Serious respect for the mods here and a steering away from being contrary is understood (I've been accused more than once 😂) but a discussion about the book has to be things that are good and things that are bad right?   Otherwise it's just a list of things in the book.

As a fellow sushi player I was pretty upset with the changes and as someone who plays against death on a regular basis I just cannot wrap my head around the graveguard discount.    These are things I think are definitely bad.  I admit though, the split on discussion is not 50/50.

I think the changes to seraphon are well deserved!  I've always loved them and enjoyed playing them BUT...I will admit I was disappointed to see their updates at the same time.  I think that any hope for a battletome is lost.  

Overall, I think people are never going to be happy with underperforming units regardless of cost so the problem with the general's handbook is you will likely only ever get one side of the coin.  You have good units that were undercosted comparatively which are slowly made worse with point adjustments or bad units that are still pretty uninteresting regardless of what their points are.  There's a very fine line of mediocre units that are a little expensive that get cheaper so people are like "Alright, I guess I can see that."

It's really hard to have an overall positive discussions in that environment.  However, even given that I think this is going to be a very good year, just like every sigmar year!!

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Idk on same tier than nagash or slanesh would be a joke. They are better than stormcast for sure. But they are far far faaaar worse than lon or slanesh.

 

So idk arent higher than A On any world. And that is being forced to play only 1 list.

 

Gloomspite arent so far neither. I would even say they should be A. Still dont get how arent they doing better with those fanatics,goblin knights, trolls, manglers etc

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4 hours ago, Vextol said:

Serious respect for the mods here and a steering away from being contrary is understood (I've been accused more than once 😂) but a discussion about the book has to be things that are good and things that are bad right?   Otherwise it's just a list of things in the book.

+++ MOD HAT +++ Fully expect there to be discussion about things that people aren't happy about.  All I'm saying is let's keep away from saying the book is garbage before we've actually read it ourselves - currently I'm reading a lot of kneejerk reactions based on somebody else's review or video, or in some cases a blurry leaked picture!

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Posted (edited)

For a game where apparently normal people openly discuss the damage output of their little models to several decimal places, as if that was a normal thing to do, people are just straight up embarrassing themselves with these garbage, unscientific, rankings. Let's be a little less basic please. Anyway I propose...


Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann Tier: Daughters of Khaine
Skyfather Tier: Flesh Eater Courts
Demi-god Tier: Legions of Nagash
AAA Tier: Skaven
AA Tier: Fyreslayers
BDSM Tier: Hedonites of Slaanesh
The Seventh Wave: Idoneth Deepkin
Magic 8 Ball Tier: Maggotkin of Nurgle
Stop! Hammer Tier: Stormcast Eternal
Branchline Tier: Sylvaneth
A Tier: Blades of Khorne
B Tier: Disciples of Tzeentch 
B.1 Tier: Gloomspite Gitz
B.2 Tier: Beasts of Chaos
Obsidian Tier: Seraphon
Tiers for Fears: Nighthaunt
Oh look at me I'm really different Tier: Legion of Azgorh
C Tier: Bonesplitterz
Chris Tomlin Tier: Phoenix Temple
π Tier: Gutbusters
Salty Privatier: Scourge Privateers
I'm Only Here for the Beer Tier: Ironjawz
Tiers of a Clown: Kharadron Overlords
Refusing to buy new models Tier: Free People
2 Start Collecting sets and I'm done Tier: Beastclaw Raiders
Z Tier: Wanderers
Trash Panda Tier: Darkling Covens
BrexiTier: Slaves to Darkness
I now have kids older than I was when I started playing this game Tier: Fimir
American Healthcare Tier: Dispossesed 
Stop It, Get Some Help Tier: Aelves
Dead never ever coming back, please get over it Tier: Bretonnians & Tomb Kings

 

Edited by JPjr
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Posted (edited)

I think we are still missing the bigger part of the picture. Over the last few years the biggest nerfs to powerful builds has come through faqs not points. A very simple change like making the keeper locus on a 3+ instead of 2+ could have a very big impact on that army. 

We will not get a remotely accurate sense of the new army tiers until we have seen the points for the new books and the summer FAQ. 

In terms of the actual content of the book aside from the terrain rules,  pretty much everything is a positive change for the game. 

Living in Japan,  the move to embrace smaller table sizes is extremely welcome and looks like it has been done in a smart way. The mercenaries rules have avoided most people's biggest concerning while introducing some fun dogs of war style options for narrative play. 

I personally don't have many opportunities to be involved in a campaign but the options they have included look pretty great. 

In terms of actual content,  this looks like the best ghb yet.

Edited by Chikout
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1 hour ago, Chikout said:

I think we are still missing the bigger part of the picture. Over the last few years the biggest nerfs to powerful builds has come through faqs not points. A very simple change like making the keeper locus on a 3+ instead of 2+ could have a very big impact on that army. 

We will not get a remotely accurate sense of the new army tiers until we have seen the points for the new books and the summer FAQ. 

In terms of the actual content of the book aside from the terrain rules,  pretty much everything is a positive change for the game. 

Living in Japan,  the move to embrace smaller table sizes is extremely welcome and looks like it has been done in a smart way. The mercenaries rules have avoided most people's biggest concerning while introducing some fun dogs of war style options for narrative play. 

I personally don't have many opportunities to be involved in a campaign but the options they have included look pretty great. 

In terms of actual content,  this looks like the best ghb yet.

This!  Speaking only about factions with books, it's going to be hard for a GHB to fix warscrolls when it doesn't do anything about them (thunderers  😡....still thunderers....but you know what I mean).   

The GHB is icing on a cake.  Sure, it can mess with the appearance and flavor of the cake but the underlying cake is pretty much unchanged.   Battletomes are the cake.  FAQs are the filling.   A decent cake (BCR) can be made dreaddul with a bad filling and ugly decoration.

Anyway, I agree.  GHB looks good, hope for the FAQ to really balance everything out, fear that the FAQ will nerf units that were increased in points (history supports this).

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Posted (edited)
 
 
5
On 6/18/2019 at 11:24 PM, EMMachine said:

In case of the -1 Rend. Warriors have Double-Handed Duardin Axes to fill that role (wounding on 3+) that Halberts have for Freeguild Guard. And if you need 30 models to hit as well as Warriors do with there axes or hammers (even after losing one model) it means, that you have to pay 3 times the price. So you can basicly fill the entire battleline of 2000 points for the same amount of points one Unit of Freeguild would cost to play effectivly and the rest of the 1760 Points can be invested in constantly stronger stuff (thats most likely the point why warriors get a little more expensive, even it is not much).

 

Ha! that's funny bud! they way you zero'd in on the rend aspect I addressed only in passing and ignored the range attack/melee attack, better to hit, and ability to turtle em up. Great stuff! maybe next time just post: "me like dwarves, me no need facts!" Have a great day!

 

*NOTE: jokes aside, It's cool you are into your dwarves, everyone should barrack for their army. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Matador

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On 6/19/2019 at 12:12 AM, Asimov said:

I remember your list and it looks really strong, but dude, I have 3 charriots and I am not willing to buy the rest to get the dozen needed for the list... Too many projects on going at the same time.

Anyways keep us posted on your results, maybe I will change my mind ^^ 
Also, curious to see a picture of your army, might be nice to just have so many charriots

Will do mate!  on road for another week now but will when I get home. In fact how about I post a couple pics of my list with the substitute units I had to use while waiting on the GW's chariots getting painted?  Made em out of foam and plastic and I still think they are better looking than the official models LOL (I believe I've posted elsewhere just how much I detest the look of the GW version haha).  

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Posted (edited)
On 6/18/2019 at 11:54 PM, RuneBrush said:

+++ MOD HAT +++

Come on folks, let's keep this on track here - this is a thread for discussing the new Generals Handbook.  It's not a thread for discussion where the new handbook has got it wrong - it's not even out yet...

Hey the split book for points is cool, I'm hoping it's sturdy though because my GHB seems to get picked up and left just about everywhere on my property and usually is left face down open.  In fact, not sure about them splitting it after all as it's having it all together was pretty handy.. you know what I mean oh mighty moderator?

Let's see otherwise, pumped about the points for legacy units being in the book! How cool was it to knock up a proper section to run tournaments? although the paint points being included is a bit grubby.  While I'm not thrilled that GW continues to ignore the old core (DC, DP, FP, SP, WND, etc...) when it comes to battletomes and figures I do appreciate the consistency of carrying last year's allegiances through to this year.  Gotta love all the new battle plans. 

 

Edited by Matador

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37 minutes ago, Matador said:

Ha! that's funny bud! they way you zero'd in on the rend aspect I addressed only in passing and ignored the range attack/melee attack, better to hit, and ability to turtle em up. Great stuff! maybe next time just post: "me like dwarves, me no need facts!" Have a great day!

 

*NOTE: jokes aside, It's cool you are into your dwarves, everyone should barrack for their army.

Actually, I do have a WHFB dwarf army and a non build Kharadron Overlord Army but for AoS I don't even have a dispossessed army (I'm actually planning to make one, but only with 8. Edition models, so no Warriors, Quarrellers or Thunderers)

But my Free People Tribesmen are actually 20-30 points cheaper than before even with the raised points of the general on Griffon.

 

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Personally I prefer playing 1K games on larger board sizes, as you get more opportunity for movement .  

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If the GHB was finished before the new books, how is it that the new GHB has those very same points?

And then why the need for a pdf udate?

 

Or am I being really dumb?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Vextol said:

This!  Speaking only about factions with books, it's going to be hard for a GHB to fix warscrolls when it doesn't do anything about them (thunderers  😡....still thunderers....but you know what I mean).   

The GHB is icing on a cake.  Sure, it can mess with the appearance and flavor of the cake but the underlying cake is pretty much unchanged.   Battletomes are the cake.  FAQs are the filling.   A decent cake (BCR) can be made dreaddul with a bad filling and ugly decoration.

Anyway, I agree.  GHB looks good, hope for the FAQ to really balance everything out, fear that the FAQ will nerf units that were increased in points (history supports this).

I definitely agree with this.  The GHB can't solve the biggest issues through points.  I think GW severely underutilizes FAQ's to fix things.  Idk if its that they are afraid of admitting their mistakes or they are afraid including too many pivotal things will confuse too many people or if its just that they only see FAQ's as a way to clarify rules rather then fix them, but given the prevalence of online rules/ epub versions this should become increasingly less of an issue in my mind and they should use FAQ's to fix badly designed units and unforeseen consequences.  GW needs to be much more willing to make significant changes through FAQ.  It would be so easy to fix the biggest FEC issue with a pretty strait forward change in a FAQ for example.  I know they've made pretty sizeable changes from time to time in FAQ, but I think they are far too rarely used to do this.  The FAQ's over the years have consistently dissapointed and been conservatively/lazilly implemented imo.  I guess we will have to see if that trend is changed when the next set get released.

Edited by tripchimeras

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The problem is not only about points.....From leaked source, the 19 GHB  leave many things unchanged, the new battleplan is just somewhat a modification version from 18 GHB, many big issue did not get fixed or clarified, the allegiance ability for many fractions did not changed at all.....Compared with CA2019 for 40k, it is really really little changes that I cannot believe they really put much effort into it.......Therefore it is very disappointing.... 

I have pre-ordered it anyway, hope there is still unleaked work.....

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13 minutes ago, The Nameless One said:

If the GHB was finished before the new books, how is it that the new GHB has those very same points?

And then why the need for a pdf udate?

 

Or am I being really dumb?

The ghb was written after the recent battletomes but before they were released and played by the wider community. By publishing a points pdf they can take the very latest feedback into account (hopefully). 

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1 hour ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

The problem is not only about points.....From leaked source, the 19 GHB  leave many things unchanged, the new battleplan is just somewhat a modification version from 18 GHB, many big issue did not get fixed or clarified, the allegiance ability for many fractions did not changed at all.....Compared with CA2019 for 40k, it is really really little changes that I cannot believe they really put much effort into it.......Therefore it is very disappointing.... 

I have pre-ordered it anyway, hope there is still unleaked work.....

The changes to the battle plans are actually pretty significant to how the game is played, and therefor the relative utility of units. 
Where previously you could get away eschewing movement, I don't think that is viable anymore and people building for attack/defence efficiency are going to lose a lot of games on points. 

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9 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

The changes to the battle plans are actually pretty significant to how the game is played, and therefor the relative utility of units. 
Where previously you could get away eschewing movement, I don't think that is viable anymore and people building for attack/defence efficiency are going to lose a lot of games on points. 

Haven't read through all the new battle plans, but weren't most of the power builds already pretty movement intensive.  If this puts even more emphasis on movement isn't this just going to make shooting heavy lists even less efficient, making things like FEC even stronger?

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