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The great big Generals Handbook 2019 Discussion Topic

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51 minutes ago, warhammernerd said:

Same,  this is HUGE for Soulblight and LoB. They are a decent unit way overpointed. Only issue is now I need to buy yet another 5 of Gamezones mournful knights, cos gw sculpts suck donkey balls and dragon princes painted red is so 90’s. Lol

Dont just paint them red. Convert them.

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12 hours ago, MitGas said:

I've read a few of the coming changes... sound quite good but why oh why didn't they reinvent (or reduce the points of) Screamers of Tzeentch? Lovely, lovely models but pretty much a bad pick 95% of the time.

Yup gotta agree Mitty,  I have one set simply for use if I want a cheap early summon to run chaff. Otherwise I'd never pay that much for em. 

 

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11 hours ago, Undeadly said:

 

 

Side note: very interested in seeing that they'll be putting actual new warscrolls in the book, with the Phoenix temple units. That opens a lot of doors for revised or entirely new units.

 

 

Yeah, neck beards are still salty about that fellow winning the GT two years ago! lol

 

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points review is up.

 

idoneth: 

reavers and thralls :130

The Lev: 350

Aspect of the sea: 420

soulrender: 80

Scryer: 130

morsarr: 170

lotann: 80

Allopex: 120

Rest unchanged.

 

personal opinion: buuh! Such low discounts on the Big overcosted offenders change nothing. The scryer increase is excessive. And The caster Eidolon is still a „why would I pay 460 pts for a mediocre unit?“

 

Edited by JackStreicher

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I think GW may finally realised that a lot of the units people complain about actually need warscroll changes. I wouldn't take Lotann if he was a 20 pt upgrade on thralls, not because of his stats but because he doesn't do anything. 

Same with the Allopex it just doesn't offer enough to really consider. Not because of what it does, but because of what it fundamentally is. 

With infantry or infantry analogs points can do a lot. But I'm not sure the designers know what the players are looking for out of units like the Allopex, fiends or a gunhauler. And that shows up in the warscroll not the points. 

As always the models are amazing and AoS is making great progress. I just wish internally a bit more critical as to the function of units in the narrative and how that would translate into how the game is played by that faction. 

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That drop in Sequitors was unexpected.

 

In general the drops in the Vanguard Units are nice. I always likes the Palladors and now they seem quite conciderable to use for like 180 Pts for 3.

Edited by Charleston
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Haven't heard too much noise on KO yet, so I'll start some...

We still need a Battle Tome.  These points don't "fix" the army at all.  And yet - these adjustments are some huge steps towards making army a lot more functional.

Not sure the Ironclad is cheap enough, but still - I'll take it.  On the other hand, 200 points for a Frigate is a competitive points cost, and for 130, I actually like the Gunhauler.

Sky Wardens dropped back down to 100 pts for 3, and I think that's great.  They were appropriately costed at that price.  As I think about it, just about every unit in the Escort Wing detachment got a points drop.  This will go a long way towards getting some list variety out there, IMO

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The most bizzaire changes I've seen are:

Neferata down to 380 (-20)

Bloodseeker Palanquin 300 (-20)

Court of Nulmia (+40)

.....so literally no discounts for the battalion then hahaha! Was it THAT good? Is +4" movement and reroll hits for Nef against heroes worth that? Admittedly there is combo potential with the Palanquin's +1A to Soulblight Aura if a hero dies but.... Eh.

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I agree about idoneth warscrolls. It's interesting that the two big armies released as brand new for AoS, other than stormcast, kharadron and idoneth both struggle with their core design. 

I suspect that both these armies will need to wait for their second book before becoming more stable across their range. 

I also believe idoneth suffered by releasing just before aos 2, so they don't quite fit the rules philosophy of either edition. 

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1 minute ago, HollowHills said:

I agree about idoneth warscrolls. It's interesting that the two big armies released as brand new for AoS, other than stormcast, kharadron and idoneth both struggle with their core design. 

I suspect that both these armies will need to wait for their second book before becoming more stable across their range. 

I also believe idoneth suffered by releasing just before aos 2, so they don't quite fit the rules philosophy of either edition. 

Not surprised about Kharadron.  Their play style is completely unique in all of AoS.  I am sure GW had issues balancing them

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33 minutes ago, Charleston said:

That drop in Sequitors was unexpected.

 

In general the drops in the Vanguard Units are nice. I always likes the Palladors and now they seem quite conciderable to use for like 180 Pts for 3.

Sequitors went up by 10/5

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Just now, PrimeElectrid said:

Sequitors went up by 10/5

Wait...oh...damn, you are right 😮 I am sorry, had them somehow confused to be 140/480

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Also new command abilities apparently.

Re-roll 1s to hit for shooting or combat I believe for 1CP

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I am torn about the Seraphon changes.

Some are cool.

Our most overpriced stuff like Saurus Warriors, Knights, Guards, Troglodon, Stegadon, Kroak, Starseer, Chameleon  Skinks and Kroxigor all got a bit cheaper.

But for example for Guards or the Starseer I still think they are probably not worth it, they need warscroll changes.

The Razordons got an expected increase, same for the EotG. Not severe IMO. The Skinks point increase hurts a bit more.

Overall I am a bit disappointed because I think Saurus armies are still not worth it.

But who knows, probably GW surprises us with some more changes that make them more worthwhile.

Edited by Aginor

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10 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

Yes is nuts. Thats a 30% increase when in contrast totally overpriced units like the turtle got something like a 8% decrease or magic avatar got a 4,5% decrease. Those units were absurdly overcosted before. But now being 1 point cheaper will be autoinclude for sure haha.

 

So a tipical tourney list with 30 baldys and eel spam will have like 100points less. That is 1 unit less. And that list wasnt toping charts. Was 5-6 place tournement wise. So it will go down sligthy.

So our top list ( that wasnt so great) will be worse. But my mixed list with things like turtle.40 baldys. Sharks etc ( friendly list that was pretty bad before) only got 40p cheaper. Thats nothing. Only a usseless triumph! Yay

 

I think the points changes should have been bigger. Like bigger nerf on eels and even greater reduction on the others units in order to get a balanced army. Rigth now we totally rely on eels. Since i dont see any reason to get thralls at 130points when swordmasters are better and now will cost 110-120 points.

You are underrating Deepkin's place in the meta I think.  They are a top 6 army, tourney wise.  Not sure you can ask for much more from a book that is well over a year old now.  I don't think our competitiveness is at issue here, I think our list diversity has always been the issue. 

I really like the 30pt increase to soulscryers, what they did was undercosted and it almost makes up for the fact that the 10pt increase to morrsarr does not change much.  All the 30pt increase means is you will probably stop seeing 2 soulscryer tourney lists,  and may even see some no deepstrike experimentation at the top.  which isn't a big deal and is probably for the best. 

I think overall the deepkin changes were much more positive then I was expecting based on the community article.  30pt decreases to leviadon, 20pt decreases to sharks, 10pts for all the infantry, 20pt decrease to soulrenders and the aspect of the sea, all Okish starts.  Assuming that we are moving to 3-6month release schedules I think we are 1 release away from getting the list diversity in tourney play our book has sorely been lacking.   Already I am seeing some interesting combos with the new points getting posted on twitter that were not possible before, not sure we are in competitive territory yet with most of these units, but we are much closer then the community article made it seem. 

I think infantry are just about where they need to be (though reavers probably need another 10pts discounted in the future).  The sharks are actually pretty close with the 20pt decrease, think they probably need 10-20pts more, but I very well may start experimenting with them some more, which is more then I could say before.    The leviadon is still probably 30pts away from being competitive, but the 30pt decrease is 10-20 more then I was expecting from community article so I'll take it at this point.  Aspect of Sea needed a 40pt decrease I think, but 20pts might be just enough to make it competitively viable as its rules really are quite good.

Overall I understand why you choose to break down point costs as percentages, but I think you are doing yourself a disservice by looking at it from a % of unit cost alone.   At the end of the day the power build increased by 70-100pts, but that is significantly less then the hit DoK took which is one of our prime competitors at the top.  Looks like FEC, fyreslayers, and skaven are going to get dealt with next month too, so if all of them end up increasing more then us, which I suspect they will, its a net positive.  Additionally that 100pt increase suggest that the previous power build is still our best build, and I think the core of it still is.  What I now wonder about is whether it doesn't make sense now to use the 100-200pts that were previously going to soulscryers on something else now.  In a lot of games I found that the deepstrike in the aggregate really wasn't even necessary, it was just point efficient and made your opponent sweat.  Certainly the psycological element was very nice, but I wonder if there isn't now a more efficient way forward, given that you were already pretty much able to hit with the morrsarr on turn 2, which is when you need them to with tideflip anyways.  I think this update definitely introduces some nice ripples, and will lead to some experimentations we weren't seeing before, which is a great start.  If there is going to be another update in the next 6 months, I think if they go in the same direction (increasing eels another 10-20pts) and continuing to widdle down points on the units they decreased this time we are going to be golden.  Not quite what I wanted, but quite a bit better then I was dreading 24 hours ago.

 

edit: also swordmasters are absolutely not better then thralls... 

Edited by tripchimeras
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2 hours ago, Charleston said:

That drop in Sequitors was unexpected.

 

In general the drops in the Vanguard Units are nice. I always likes the Palladors and now they seem quite conciderable to use for like 180 Pts for 3.

Sequitors went up 130/440 Palladors are finally at what they should have started at. I think at 160 they'd be a staple meaty distraction unit, at 180 they're still just a little too pricey considering nothing in the army really supports them.

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1 hour ago, HollowHills said:

I agree about idoneth warscrolls. It's interesting that the two big armies released as brand new for AoS, other than stormcast, kharadron and idoneth both struggle with their core design. 

I suspect that both these armies will need to wait for their second book before becoming more stable across their range. 

I also believe idoneth suffered by releasing just before aos 2, so they don't quite fit the rules philosophy of either edition. 

Stormcast also struggle with their core design. They have 2 gimmick lists you can build (Deepstrike bomb or Longstrikes with birdies) and that's pretty much it. 50+ units and more than a dozen battalions and they have two semi-viable builds.

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1 hour ago, tripchimeras said:

really like the 30pt increase to soulscryers, what they did was undercosted and it almost makes up for the fact that the 10pt increase to morrsarr does not change much.  All the 30pt increase means is you will probably stop seeing 2 soulscryer tourney lists,  and may even see some no deepstrike experimentation at the top.  which isn't a big deal and is probably for the best

130 pts for a unit that does NOTHING except deliver 2 deepstrikes. Seems a bit much.

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Are Skaven Gnawholes going to get an errata? They can't be used because of the new terrain rules

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Seeing the ko points decreases for boats I think they are all non-viable. The models are too big and get targeted from everywhere to be this frail and have so little firepower. On top of this good luck trying to carry 4-6 ships around without them breaking lol let alone a painted army. Our models simply don’t support s horde playstyle and I am disappointed in GW for still ignoring us. With the other small units like grundstock and balloon boys drop I doubt anyone will take more boats lol. 

KO desperately need a big 2.0 update and new units to truly make them shine. A dedicated combat boat no transport capacity is needed big time. On top of that existing boats need reworks not points drops lol. They need to bring more shots to be worth it and the frigate and especially the Ironclad need better saves. I like to imagine a fluffy army is 2-3 boats + supporting infantry and other units I want to see this style of list be competitive since it’s why I got into KO not infantry. 

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Wait just realised... no core rule changes are there? 

Thats brilliant. Every year I dread re-learning core rules. Things like command abilities changed but it’s basically more options. 

Or am I missing something? 

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"This year’s General’s Handbook also contains allegiance abilities for several factions, with expanded rules for Ironjawz, Seraphon, Wanderers, Darkling Covens, Free Peoples, Slaves to Darkness and Dispossessed"
- First Teaser

I thought this meant new stuff but by and large it seems like reprinting stuff that's written elsewhere, Only 3/7 of those factions seem to have gotten significant changes. Ugh.

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27 minutes ago, Barkanaut said:

like to imagine a fluffy army is 2-3 boats + supporting infantry and other units I want to see this style of list be competitive since it’s why I got into KO not infantry

I also don’t think points are the fix for KO ships but isn’t this kind of opposites? 

You want what you consider a narrative (fluffy) army list to be Competitive. It does happen that a army  combines the two but mostly competitive lists focus on one strengths and the few units that play to that strength. 

But  the narrative approach is to look what fits your narrative. So if your vision is max ship that’s cool, but even if they buff them to the roof... it’s not going to be my fluffy lists that is suddenly competitive*, can’t have the cake and eat it I suspect ;) 

curious to hear if you see this differently  

* for me it’s the pirate aspect of the army which is the fluffy aspect. One big ship that drops raiders in a city while they tear everything down in close range fire fights. 

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1 hour ago, Aden said:


I thought this meant new stuff but by and large it seems like reprinting stuff that's written elsewhere, Only 3/7 of those factions seem to have gotten significant changes. Ugh.

I've learn to never be too optimistic whenever gw mentions big changes outside of an actual codex/BT.

Anyone here remember 40k 5th edition? When they were making "the big faq that was suppose to fix everything" especially in regards to no one having access to Skyfire+Interceptor? That was a funny time.

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