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1 minute ago, Neverchosen said:

This is why I am typically in favour of soups to be honest, it means that low selling armies will still get rules support and possibly have people give it a second look to add to their larger collection.

I have said this a number of times regarding Choas Dwarves. They could get a lot of support in a Slaves to Darkness army as it is a popular range with dedicated fans and they would gladly add some models to their collection. Furthermore with the right rules you could run a pure Chaos Dwarf army providing fans with the ability to play their preferred faction. It would also not be hard to justify from a lore perspective permitting Chaos Dwarves to be a distinct culture that Archaon has allied with in promise of rewards for the Duardins and firepower for the Slaves to Darkness. 

Didn’t work out for Bonesplitterz though so can’t say I agree with you

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28 minutes ago, Lord Veshnakar said:

Controversial take I am sure, but this happened with Chaos Dwarfs from Forgeworld and it would likely happen with Tomb Kings and Bretonnians as well. The sales just weren't there, and I heard it a thousand times from GW reps. 

People had been screaming for Chaos Dwarfs forever, but then when Forgeworld had finally released them, and the Tamurkhan book, people in the Chaos Dwarf forum said the price point was prohibitive and were finding any way they could to convert Chaos Dwarfs from Battle for Skull Pass dwarfs, buy third party Mantic Chaos Dwarfs, etc etc.  despite the price point was entirely in line with the other armies out at the time. Then they were surprised/flipped out when forge world stopped developing the Chaos Dwarf range.

Despite how much you personally love a range does not change that money (and how you spend it with GW) talks. It's why Space Marines, Stormcast, and Aelves/elves get so much support from GW.

Speaking as someone with a forgeworld Chaos Dwarf army, the price point is not comparable to other WFB armies from the time. The Battleline troops were hugely expensive compared to regular troops (though AoS models have since caught up. I have one unit of each, and never even considered getting any more, because it was far easier to fill out the army with cheaper alternatives from other companies. Every other model is close to being a big centrepiece, which again was less common back then. They are great, and I love them, but they were in no way an easy army to collect, so its no surprise that more affordable alternatives are common.

 

 

As to AoS vs WFB. I've often summed it up thus:

The Old World is a bad idea executed to perfection.
It is a carbon copy of earth crammed with a mishmash of fantasy cliches. It shouldn't work, except that some talented game writers spent thirty years adding so much hidden depth that it became a classic. You only have to scratch the surface to see how it cleverly deconstructs and plays with its most cliched tropes. It will always be beloved.

Age of Sigmar is a brilliant idea, executed quite badly.

It has massive potential, and they have really done well at fleshing out as much of it as they have as quickly as they have. The scale and scope of the setting, and the diversity and variety which it allows really makes it stand out. However, its still in its early days, and is still haunted by the legacy of the undefined vagueness, which put people off at the start. The silly names and unclear history make it a very hard sell for a lot of people who would love it if they gave it a chance.

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6 hours ago, Vomikron said:

I have a really hard time wrapping my head around AoS lore because of its lack of grounding in a real world. The Mortal Realms seem to be a place where anything can, and will, happen. I think that this has its pros and its cons.


I can sit and read 40K lore for hours, though it’s the absurdly far future it’s still set in our realm of comprehension. The mortal realms are just so vague and ill defined. Game system wise I much prefer AoS but I find myself consistently going back to 40K armies for their lore and deep history.

I think it is a draw, for sure. If you know the lore, you know exactly what Kislev stands for and what their motivations are -act as a speedbump to Archaon stop Chaos no matter what. No matter if you read a novella or create lore for your armies, that previous knowledge gives you something tangible to anchor yourself to. I am sure AoS will reach similar heights when it has more history - both in terms of written lore and just having had a community for decades. But for now, I really understand why many still prefer the setting of Old World vs. Mortal Realms.

42 minutes ago, Lord Veshnakar said:

Controversial take I am sure, but this happened with Chaos Dwarfs from Forgeworld and it would likely happen with Tomb Kings and Bretonnians as well. The sales just weren't there, and I heard it a thousand times from GW reps. 

People had been screaming for Chaos Dwarfs forever, but then when Forgeworld had finally released them, and the Tamurkhan book, people in the Chaos Dwarf forum said the price point was prohibitive and were finding any way they could to convert Chaos Dwarfs from Battle for Skull Pass dwarfs, buy third party Mantic Chaos Dwarfs, etc etc.  despite the price point was entirely in line with the other armies out at the time. Then they were surprised/flipped out when forge world stopped developing the Chaos Dwarf range.

Despite how much you personally love a range does not change that money (and how you spend it with GW) talks. It's why Space Marines, Stormcast, and Aelves/elves get so much support from GW.

I disagree respectfully. I don't want to parrot @EccentricCircle's great points, but just the rules for Tamurkhan was ridiculously expensive - I want to say buying the book+shipping ended up being close to 80€, and this was at a time army books had jumped up in price to 25-ish euros (oh, if we'd just known how good we had it!). Yes, Tamurkhan is a so called 'premium' book and I still believe it was worth every penny; but it is quite disingeous to claim Chaos Dwarfs failed because the community was ungrateful and whining over competitive pricing when just your rules were thrice the price of a normal army book. It isn't a secret most probably would balk at such prices, especially when the models themselves were much pricier (and in resin!) compared to GW proper's armies.

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34 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

Speaking as someone with a forgeworld Chaos Dwarf army, the price point is not comparable to other WFB armies from the time. The Battleline troops were hugely expensive compared to regular troops (though AoS models have since caught up. I have one unit of each, and never even considered getting any more, because it was far easier to fill out the army with cheaper alternatives from other companies. Every other model is close to being a big centrepiece, which again was less common back then. They are great, and I love them, but they were in no way an easy army to collect, so its no surprise that more affordable alternatives are common.

 

 

As to AoS vs WFB. I've often summed it up thus:

The Old World is a bad idea executed to perfection.
It is a carbon copy of earth crammed with a mishmash of fantasy cliches. It shouldn't work, except that some talented game writers spent thirty years adding so much hidden depth that it became a classic. You only have to scratch the surface to see how it cleverly deconstructs and plays with its most cliched tropes. It will always be beloved.

Age of Sigmar is a brilliant idea, executed quite badly.

It has massive potential, and they have really done well at fleshing out as much of it as they have as quickly as they have. The scale and scope of the setting, and the diversity and variety which it allows really makes it stand out. However, its still in its early days, and is still haunted by the legacy of the undefined vagueness, which put people off at the start. The silly names and unclear history make it a very hard sell for a lot of people who would love it if they gave it a chance.

I like your arguments. Reading the Josh Reynolds Hallowed Knights I think it is better developed than the lore on warcom and wikis give away. The third ed core book has fantastic sections on the cities of sigmar. I see a lot of contemporary fantasy influences creeping in, China Mieville with the cities in Shyish and Ulugu. I think it is developing well and by design has less risk of stagnation the TOW, in terms of lore and design. So I’m hopeful. A lot of the vague elements remind me of 40k RT and using my imangination to fill in the gaps. I like this. 

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16 minutes ago, edmc78 said:

I like your arguments. Reading the Josh Reynolds Hallowed Knights I think it is better developed than the lore on warcom and wikis give away. The third ed core book has fantastic sections on the cities of sigmar. I see a lot of contemporary fantasy influences creeping in, China Mieville with the cities in Shyish and Ulugu. I think it is developing well and by design has less risk of stagnation the TOW, in terms of lore and design. So I’m hopeful. A lot of the vague elements remind me of 40k RT and using my imangination to fill in the gaps. I like this. 

The 3rd Edition Core Book is absolutely incredible at world building, building itself upon 2nd and Broken Realms and has really started to ground the setting. By 4th Editions Core book we will have most likely had another narrative event and I cant wait to see what awaits us in the future of the Mortal Realms!!

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2 hours ago, Public Universal Duardin said:

I think it is a draw, for sure. If you know the lore, you know exactly what Kislev stands for and what their motivations are -act as a speedbump to Archaon stop Chaos no matter what. No matter if you read a novella or create lore for your armies, that previous knowledge gives you something tangible to anchor yourself to. I am sure AoS will reach similar heights when it has more history - both in terms of written lore and just having had a community for decades. But for now, I really understand why many still prefer the setting of Old World vs. Mortal Realms.

I disagree respectfully. I don't want to parrot @EccentricCircle's great points, but just the rules for Tamurkhan was ridiculously expensive - I want to say buying the book+shipping ended up being close to 80€, and this was at a time army books had jumped up in price to 25-ish euros (oh, if we'd just known how good we had it!). Yes, Tamurkhan is a so called 'premium' book and I still believe it was worth every penny; but it is quite disingeous to claim Chaos Dwarfs failed because the community was ungrateful and whining over competitive pricing when just your rules were thrice the price of a normal army book. It isn't a secret most probably would balk at such prices, especially when the models themselves were much pricier (and in resin!) compared to GW proper's armies.

I'd not even thought about the book. Sadly I never did get my own copy of Tamurkhan to go with my models!

Edit: Goes to check Ebay to see what the prices are like these days... Nope. Sadly I never did get my own copy of Tarmurkhan....

Edited by EccentricCircle
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I was working that Wood Elf revamp and it did gangbusters in our store at least, though i had been doing rather well with my own Wood Elves at the time so it had had some decent marketing :D

The Forgeworld chaos dwarves were an excellent range, but resin is a poor material for a whole army, the only way any of them ever sold in large amounts was when it was weirdly cheaper than plastic due to the old currency conversions.

But seriously, the Forgeworld Chaos dwarves at recaster prices have long been a powerful temptation, especially now they are OOP, jussst not quite enough to cross the line to supporting that horror. (Its wildly offtopic but a mate saw a recaster operation in China and it was baaad).

If they just produced those guns and infantry in plastic? Reasonably priced, Fry would be throwing money at them :D

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9 hours ago, novakai said:

Didn’t work out for Bonesplitterz though so can’t say I agree with you

I mean if the alternative was retiring the line completely I think this is still my preferred option. But for some people not being top tier or getting regular releases is just as bad as being squatted.

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12 hours ago, Neverchosen said:

This is why I am typically in favour of soups to be honest, it means that low selling armies will still get rules support and possibly have people give it a second look to add to their larger collection.

I have said this a number of times regarding Choas Dwarves. They could get a lot of support in a Slaves to Darkness army as it is a popular range with dedicated fans and they would gladly add some models to their collection. Furthermore with the right rules you could run a pure Chaos Dwarf army providing fans with the ability to play their preferred faction. It would also not be hard to justify from a lore perspective permitting Chaos Dwarves to be a distinct culture that Archaon has allied with in promise of rewards for the Duardins and firepower for the Slaves to Darkness. 

I've been saying this for years! ... Nice to hear someone else feels the same, S2D is a perfect home for a chaos dwarf soft launch, and potentially a permanent place if the rules are right

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8 hours ago, Neverchosen said:

I mean if the alternative was retiring the line completely I think this is still my preferred option. But for some people not being top tier or getting regular releases is just as bad as being squatted.

I see, a half empty glass...

I mean, the alternative could be a new wave of models with 14 kits, new battletome and a trilogy of books from Black Library... hey, if Genestralers had a new revival, why not Bonnesplitterz!!

Edited by Beliman
fuuu
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13 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

Edit: Goes to check Ebay to see what the prices are like these days... Nope. Sadly I never did get my own copy of Tarmurkhan....

...and now I'll never re-read the book again, gotta protect my future retirement fund!

3 hours ago, CarkFish said:

I've been saying this for years! ... Nice to hear someone else feels the same, S2D is a perfect home for a chaos dwarf soft launch, and potentially a permanent place if the rules are right

I do hope we get enough to run a 'Chaos Dwarf only' army, including Hobgrot Slittaz of course. 1-2 battlelines, 1 Chaos Duardin sorcerer, maybe a Hellcanon re-release.

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3 hours ago, Beliman said:

I see, a glass half empty...

I mean, the alternative could be a new wave of models with 14 kits, new battletome and a trilogy of books from Black Library... hey, if Genestralers had a new revival, why not Bonnesplitterz!!

I mean there is nothing saying that a souped armies subfaction won't get a massive refresh down the line. Honestly I think that it actually makes it more likely to occur as it means that they are still supporting the line to some degree and therefore they are getting some community support unlike during the WHFB days of waiting entire editions for a new tome without any real model support. We already saw expansions of Troggoths and Moonclans in the Gloomspite tome and we have the small possibility of new Spiderfang with Warcry. 

However, we are all just speculating at this point as we don't know the internal choices going on, for example did Kruelboyz take precedence over the other Orruk models or would the alternative been simply a plastic hero and battletome. The reality is that we sadly do not know unless someone from the company explains the behind the scene process. Also I will confess that my optimism might be entirely misplaced and maybe spiderfang, bonesplitterz, Ironweld and Fyreslayers never get new releases. But I still remember when forrest goblins, savage orcs, steamtanks and slayers were simply parts of Orcs and Goblins, Empire and Dwarves not having dedicated subfaction rules. 

But I apologize for taking this topic further afield than usual. Lets all hope that there is some AOS related content revealed today wether it be the long awaited rest of the Stormcast or the new Underworlds set.

Edited by Neverchosen
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It all depends on what kind of potential GW sees in Chaos Dwarves. I think that demand and sales for regular Slaves to Darkness are sure to surpass anything that the dark Duardin could incite. But then again I would have thought that the new Chaos Warrriors and Knighs would sell great, but they never released them outside of the Start Collecting. 

Still I can hardly imagine a new Slaves to Darkness tome where Chaos Dwarves were the only subfaction to receive new models. 

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49 minutes ago, Maogrim said:

It all depends on what kind of potential GW sees in Chaos Dwarves. I think that demand and sales for regular Slaves to Darkness are sure to surpass anything that the dark Duardin could incite. But then again I would have thought that the new Chaos Warrriors and Knighs would sell great, but they never released them outside of the Start Collecting. 

Still I can hardly imagine a new Slaves to Darkness tome where Chaos Dwarves were the only subfaction to receive new models. 

My dream release would be:

New Plastic Demon Prince,

Plastic Ruinstorm Styled Demons,

Chaos Warriors and Knights

Unmounted Varanguard 

Chaos Dwarf Infantry (optional melee or ranged builds)

Chaos Dwarf Sorcerror Lord

Chaos Dwarf Helcannon

Hobgrots

Chaos Dwarf Lord on Bull Taurus 

Bullcentaurs for an earlier Warcry release

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3 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

My dream release would be:

New Plastic Demon Prince,

Plastic Ruinstorm Styled Demons,

Chaos Warriors and Knights

Unmounted Varanguard 

Chaos Dwarf Infantry (optional melee or ranged builds)

Chaos Dwarf Sorcerror Lord

Chaos Dwarf Helcannon

Hobgrots

Chaos Dwarf Lord on Bull Taurus 

Bullcentaurs for an earlier Warcry release

Sounds reasonable and pretty cool! Though I personally would assume that GW will dial down on the bull theme since that is also present in Beasts of Chaos (should they remain) and Lumineth. Maybe more machinery and golem stuff?! 

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I'd love for Stormcast to get the rest of their lines and Dragons released but I have a feeling itll be Underworlds, which personally, is awesome but I feel for my Armoured brethren lovers. 

If it isnt Stormcast, social media wont be kind this week.

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So on the topic of souping tomes…

I’ve generally been vocal against souping. The reasons are obvious. I prefer each army to be as unique as possible and get as much individual attention as possible. That said, I’ve recently had a change of heart in the topic. 

The orruk warclans book, while not perfectly balanced or executed (seriously, who wrote bonesplitterz?), is actually in the vein of what I’d like to see. Why?

1) While there is a decent set of rules for soup, the most interesting rules IMO are the non-soup ones, meaning that the factions manage to retain their individual identities. 

2) Effectively, 3 armies got a book at once. (Yeah one of them was ******, but that happens to mono-army books all the time too). At this point we have ~22 more battletomes that need to come out this edition, assuming no additional souping occurs. Given Covid and international shipping issues, that might never actually happen in time for 4th edition (assuming they stick to the 3 year edition cadence). 

3) My group is being silly and doesn’t want to play PtG until “more armies get cool books and PtG rules like the new ones have. Yeah white dwarf helps there, but they’re mad about needing to buy a $10 magazine for rules (I guess a $50 book is preferable to them). 

Basically, I think souping partially can solve our new edition battletome delays as long as the amount of roles doesn’t get reduced too badly

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1 hour ago, willange said:

So on the topic of souping tomes…

I’ve generally been vocal against souping. The reasons are obvious. I prefer each army to be as unique as possible and get as much individual attention as possible. That said, I’ve recently had a change of heart in the topic. 

The orruk warclans book, while not perfectly balanced or executed (seriously, who wrote bonesplitterz?), is actually in the vein of what I’d like to see. Why?

1) While there is a decent set of rules for soup, the most interesting rules IMO are the non-soup ones, meaning that the factions manage to retain their individual identities. 

2) Effectively, 3 armies got a book at once. (Yeah one of them was ******, but that happens to mono-army books all the time too). At this point we have ~22 more battletomes that need to come out this edition, assuming no additional souping occurs. Given Covid and international shipping issues, that might never actually happen in time for 4th edition (assuming they stick to the 3 year edition cadence). 

3) My group is being silly and doesn’t want to play PtG until “more armies get cool books and PtG rules like the new ones have. Yeah white dwarf helps there, but they’re mad about needing to buy a $10 magazine for rules (I guess a $50 book is preferable to them). 

Basically, I think souping partially can solve our new edition battletome delays as long as the amount of roles doesn’t get reduced too badly

Honestly, it's why the decision of not doing a roadmap has me pulling my hair out sometimes.

At this point, just knowing what's happening in the next 6 - 12 months roughly at leasts lets me feel comfortable playing.  As a quick example, i've wanted to custom build a shaggoth because I don't like the resin shaggoth. BUT, i keep thinking there's a possibility there will be new kit, and I don't want to buy multiple kits for my mediocre skills at customizing.

So instead, I do nothing.  If I knew BoC was coming in 3 months, i'd build up other elements.  If I knew they were coming in 6 or more, i'd make my centerpieces because that's plenty of time. 

Instead, I do nothing - I sit on things, don't model, don't paint... just WAIT. constantly waiting for an inkling of what and when.

It doesn't matter if it's soup or not soup, but its maddening and sometimes hard to play at all without knowing what is happening (roughly speaking).  

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