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17 minutes ago, Frowny said:

I love that this conversation all ended up in a respectful debate about the history and future of war games and GW. What a nice forum!

Back to rumors, I'm actually quite worried about these new cruel boys model complexity for a horde ish army. The level of different colors and details on kragnos' tiny effigy will be brutal and unpleasant to paint if you are needing dozens of them on little figures with robes/armor etc. As well. 

It's kinda like the new zombies-i like the models and the detail but will never ever play or buy them because I don't want to paint 120 of them. I'm worried the kruel Boyz will be similar

I'd hope if it's a starter set force, that it will be relatively simple in terms of design, especially if there is a unit of basic troops. Then they can turn up the style and details on the heroes. 

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2 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Starship Troopers the movie already had people agreeing with the fascism in it, and its satire is miles thicker than current era Black Library writing. If there even is satire left in that.

you don't think there is satire left in it? (sorry mods, this is just interesting!) I don't read a lot of BL stuff and sometimes I worry.

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53 minutes ago, Dawnmane said:

I just wanted to comment on the whole "this could be a Star Wars League IP": I'm pretty sure it can't. Fans of Warhammer games tend to forget that they only work because fans are able to read the satirical subtext (or don't care about it, which can be a bit worrying). Star Wars is a universe that speaks to a monomythical human desire to fight against oppression, become the person you were meant to be, and happy, reconciliatory endings. Star Trek is (or used to be) to some extent a story about the triumph of humanism. Marvel is about finding your identity and finding value in your flaws in order to protect society.

Warhammer, on the other hand, is about death, destruction, militarism and violence. It's ALSO a criticism of those things, definitely, but Warhammer fiction outside of its somewhat cutesy plastic miniature iteration will never be summer blockbuster material. That's not because of bad marketing or because people haven't discovered it yet, but because it really leaves no room for the "believe in yourself and be a good person and things will be alright" stories that all the other big franchises rely upon. Also, the fascistoid aesthetic of the Imperium is not going to work in Western cinema, either (I hope!)

Maybe someone will make a cult hit of a movie out of it, or a grimdark HBO-esque TV series, but it's never going near the big franchises without fundamentally changing what it's about. 

[edit: had to add this] also: Warhammer is satire, which is not something you can succesfully export to global popular culture without a lot of unfortunate misunderstandings happening. And if it's not satire, it instead becomes a very problematic narrative universe promoting values that aren't getting anywhere near Hollywood in such an unmasked form.

It dosent need to be Star Wars level. Star Wars is a bit like the Beatles in that the precise circumstances that allowed for a moment in which a single thing could come into being and dominate popular culture on a near global scale- I'm not sure that can ever happen again.

But you can be not Star Wars and still make money hand over a fist at a level which dwarfs GW's current revenue.

Thing is though, re the Sattire thing- I think this is likely to be the biggest issue. A license without clear goodies and baddies is unlikely to appeal on the aforementioned scale. A media empire based around fictions in which *all* protagonists are at best pretty much irredeemable and at worst existentially appaling and awful is not just going to be challenging, its likely to come across as boring.

The closest analogue to something like that which has succeeded is Game of Thrones. But while it was excessivley and expertly morally grey, the reality of life in Westeros would be a positive Nirvana for the subjects of the Imperium.

 

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8 minutes ago, Nos said:

It dosent need to be Star Wars level. Star Wars is a bit like the Beatles in that the precise circumstances that allowed for a moment in which a single thing could come into being and dominate popular culture on a near global scale- I'm not sure that can ever happen again.

But you can be not Star Wars and still make money hand over a fist at a level which dwarfs GW's current revenue.

Thing is though, re the Sattire thing- I think this is likely to be the biggest issue. A license without clear goodies and baddies is unlikely to appeal on the aforementioned scale. A media empire based around fictions in which *all* protagonists are at best pretty much irredeemable and at worst existentially appaling and awful is not just going to be challenging, its likely to come across as boring.

The closest analogue to something like that which has succeeded is Game of Thrones. But while it was excessivley and expertly morally grey, the reality of life in Westeros would be a positive Nirvana for the subjects of the Imperium.

 

good points! And yes, Game of Thrones is the best comparison, but the culture has even moved on since then. I don't think anyone would greenlight Game of Thrones in the form we saw it today. And to some extent, I think that's okay (but that's beside the point here).

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52 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

A lot of those offers were probably "Join us, or get a C&D anyway." 

...or probably not. How can you be so certain to even make this claim?

I can ignore your weakness for conspiracies and fallacies but you should be aware that your priggish "healthy scepticism" towards GW now also includes those contracted animators, who allegedly had this
 

1 hour ago, Clan's Cynic said:

blind expectation it will be good just because it's got 'Warhammer' and 'Games Workshop' in the title.

 

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8 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Starship Troopers the movie already had people agreeing with the fascism in it, and its satire is miles thicker than current era Black Library writing. If there even is satire left in that.

Sorry but if people take the fictional fascism by the Imperials in 40k (or even Starship Troopers) at face value, they should not be allowed to read those novels as they're clearly not smart enough. You also find people out there that agree with you if you proclaimed ourplanet is flat. Fools are fools, you can't help those that lack common sense. You make it sound like the writers are fascists themselves because they don't depict those tones in an even more absurd manner.

What's next, we'll forbid people from watching Star Wars cause the galactic empire is clearly fascist as well (lots of people find the empire cool, that is problematic too)? Give me a break, this is fiction and no normal person will become a right-winger because of it. And those that think that way, will think like that even without those books. It simply reinforces their opinion, with the irony of it being lost on them. Extreme left-wing is just as bad too and we have no discussions about it, and putting moderate right-wingers or the political middle into the same basket as true fascists is also a dangerous practice and only divides people more, something we all don't need. Extremes are usually bad (unless it's extreme talent!). Y'know, you can have different political ideas and still get along with others well (I got friends on both sides of the political spectrum and it doesn't matter and negatively affect our friendship) - minus the extremists on all sides of the spectrum. What society is currently doing is creating pressure where a tiny fraction of the political spectrum gets seen as the only true way. You do know which political form employs such methods, right?

I hope that common sense will prevail but it's unlikely when I read some things online... seriously, being worried that books that have let's say less than ideal protagonists influence mentally sound people is an absolutely ridiculous notion and actually dangerous. I've heard that line of thinking with videogames. It's not the media, it's the person as 99,9999999% don't kill others because they play shooters (or whatever else gets blamed, I can remember the outcry when MK was released). And the next "preventive" step is exactly what you're worried about - fascism. 

Some really smart bloke from the UK said it best: “The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists.” So yeah, please let writers create less than ideal worlds to simply enjoy, they're not asking you or anyone to think like that. Y'know, the houses in Game of Thrones weren't ideal either. neither was Sauron. There needs to be a point where things can just "be". It would be better to make sure our educational systems are better and then the media stops preaching their political agendas. 

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Posted (edited)

Think the biggest issue with warhammer TV shows is the creative restrictions over the way the protagnoists act.

Space Marines are just dull as ditchwater, they think and talk about honour, loyalty and devotion, and not a lot else. They don't question their place in the universe, or the brutality of their creation. They don't eat, drink, defecate, laugh or ******. 

All that means when they talk to each other, it makes me cringe so hard I feel like I could turn inside out. This is already bad in audiobook format and it'll be even worse in a live action format.

AOS has exactly the same problem in its stormcast, who become less human (and therefore less relateable) every time they're reforged.

If w+ is going to be successful, it needs to focus on the humans of both worlds. The freeguild infantryman fighting alongside a stormcast host, or the captain of a space marine battlebarge (think lotara sarrin). Otherwise its just going to be unwatchable cheese.

Edited by Jagged Red Lines
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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Starship Troopers the movie already had people agreeing with the fascism in it, and its satire is miles thicker than current era Black Library writing. If there even is satire left in that.

I mean there are an absolutely terrifying number of Star Wars fans that ideologically support the Empire and First Order. Star Wars is extremely upfront about the fact that these organizations are blatantly and objectively evil. 

Warhammer fans in particular get into a strange territory of identifying with the politics of their armies. Which is really uncomfortable in a setting in which everyone is meant to be seen as the villain to everyone else. There are some fun and interesting transgressive politics at play dating back to their roots in British counterculture, steeped in a heavy dose of irony... but those parodic elements have begun to erode as more and more people have become invested in the world and characters. Now there is an uncomfortable tension that exists within the narrative between the satirical take on Sci-fi/fantasy tropes and the audience that earnestly identifies with the things being satirized. The Imperium was clearly a satire of real world imperialism taken to an intergalactic scale. AOS is less outwardly problematic or one dimensional but it still makes me a touch uncomfortable that people really want to identify with their plastic army.

I will often joke that Chaos are a progressive and inclusive faction but I know they are also a uniformed army dedicated to the worship of Evil Gods wishing to undo the fabric of reality. The narrative I developed for my army is that they were religious crusaders of Sigmar who entered the Eightpoints and upon seeing the might of Chaos determined they were following the wrong God. Now they return to the mortal realms to convert the forces of order to their new faith. The army does not remotely match my politics but it does function as a critique of they way religion is often used to justify war. 

Edited by Neverchosen
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5 minutes ago, Bayul said:

...or probably not. How can you be so certain to even make this claim?

I can ignore your weakness for conspiracies and fallacies but you should be aware that your priggish "healthy scepticism" towards GW now also includes those contracted animators, who allegedly had this
 

 

Considering the animations that've been pulled down have both posted very similar statements and how much the Astartes creator was making off Patreon (£20,000 monthly) with the creative freedom that brings (GW isn't exactly known for it's high salaries), it's not unreasonable to assume GW aren't just 'trying to nurture talent' and especially when their being taken down should coincide with a Warhammer-only streaming service. 

It's not as if GW don't have a history of sending lawyers after people now is it?

It's funny you should call me priggish considering you were pulling the usual condescending attitude towards people who don't gobble up The New Thing, but given how pervasive that attitude is here I can't be too surprised to see it.

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6 minutes ago, Jagged Red Lines said:

Think the biggest issue with warhammer TV shows is the creative restrictions over the way the protagnoists act.

Space Marines are just dull as ditchwater, they think and talk about honour, loyalty and devotion, and not a lot else. They don't question their place in the universe, or the brutality of their creation. They don't eat, drink, defecate, laugh or ******. 

All that means when they talk to each other, it makes me cringe so hard I feel like I could turn inside out. This is already bad in audiobook format and it'll be even worse in a live action format.

AOS has exactly the same problem in its stormcast, who become less human (and therefore less relateable) every time they're reforged.

If w+ is going to be successful, it needs to focus on the humans of both worlds. The freeguild infantryman fighting alongside a stormcast host, or the captain of a space marine battlebarge (think lotara sarrin). Otherwise its just going to be unwatchable cheese.

For the most part I agree with a lot of Space Marines being boring, but the Horus Heresy gave me some of my favourite marine characters that aren't all just duty and honour, such as Kharn, Sevetar, Amit, etc.

Necromunda could have promise for a TV series, seeing the different lives of the different layers of the hive play out, how the different gangs interact.

For AoS/Fantasy, you could play the long game with a Nagash series on his rise to power back in the old world. 

 

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2 minutes ago, SunStorm said:

For AoS/Fantasy, you could play the long game with a Nagash series on his rise to power back in the old world. 

 

Considering how well vermintide, skaven Total war warhammer (I’m very certain that it is the difficulty level to play them that makes them so no interesting)

The ratties could be a great start to support an aos series

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55 minutes ago, SunStorm said:

I'd hope if it's a starter set force, that it will be relatively simple in terms of design, especially if there is a unit of basic troops. Then they can turn up the style and details on the heroes. 

I am debating whether the hand grenade rumor engine is it's own dedicated unit (Some sort of Hobgob GobLobber) or if it is a special weapon for the basic Kroolboyz. With all the vials and bottles we have seen so far I wouldn't be surprised if one of their units throws witch's brew with different effects (like a Orruk version of the Alchemist from Tactics Ogre). So far from rumors/stuff we sort of can guess;

  • Warboss on some sort of Squig-Warg.
  • Squig-Warg riders.
  • Shaman with cauldron who splashes volatile brew
  • Basic Kroolboyz on foot
  • Maybe the rumored Hobgobs are their ranged unit. Bomb/Potion throwers?

Since Starter sets tend to have 6-7 units per side I am a bit short. Maybe a small artillery piece or a third hero?

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3 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

I mean there are an absolutely terrifying number of Star Wars fans that ideologically support the Empire and First Order. Star Wars is extremely upfront about the fact that these organizations are blatantly and objectively evil. 

Warhammer fans in particular get into a strange territory of identifying with the politics of their armies. Which is really uncomfortable in a setting in which everyone is meant to be seen as the villain to everyone else. There are some fun and interesting transgressive politics at play dating back to their roots in British counterculture, steeped in a heavy dose of irony... but those parodic elements have begun to erode as more and more people have become invested in the world and characters. Now there is an uncomfortable tension that exists within the narrative between the satirical take on Sci-fi/fantasy tropes and the audience that earnestly identifies with the things being satirized. The Imperium was clearly a satire of real world imperialism taken to an intergalactic scale. AOS is less outwardly problematic or one dimensional but it still makes me a touch uncomfortable that people really want to identify with their plastic army.

I will often joke that Chaos are a progressive and inclusive faction but I know they are also a uniformed army dedicated to the worship of Evil Gods wishing to undo the fabric of reality. The narrative I developed for my army is that they were religious crusaders of Sigmar who entered the Eightpoints and upon seeing the might of Chaos determined they were following the wrong God. Now they return to the mortal realms to convert the forces of order their new faith. The army does not remotely match my politics but it does function as a critique of they way religion is often used to justify war. 

What people say or claim or roleplay in regards to their fiction (e.g. saying the empire is right) says nothing about what they'd be like in real life when it comes down to it though. You don't see collectors of anti-establishment fighters (let's say they're fighting a fascist regime) cause havoc on the streets either, do you? And the collectors or fans might agree with their ideals. But as soon as you (or one - not talking about you in particular) think that you are right in limiting what can be seen as art because you think it propagates idea(l)s you don't like, YOU ARE THE FASCIST. Let people think for themselves. I'm absolutely of the opinion that most people are idiots and I know better what they and society needs but guess what - that is pure fascism, even if I mean it well! It doesn't matter who's thinking it - so it's good and VERY important noone (neither person or group) can decide. 

We got a nice building with an even nicer slogan on it here: "To every age its art, to every art its freedom." As long as the allegiation can't be 100% made that something is a true danger to society, I see more danger for our society from us forbidding said content.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Jagged Red Lines said:

AOS has exactly the same problem in its stormcast, who become less human (and therefore less relateable) every time they're reforged.

I disagree with this point, I don't believe stormcast become less relateable by losing part of themselves. Yes you can say they aren't completely relateable becuae of their superhuman reforging but then that would be true of many major Marvel/DC heroes yet people have no problem relating to them. The stormcast losing parts of themselves through reforging may not be something we do specifically but I can understand, empathise and frankly be terrified of the concept especially. Also people to lose parts of themselves, dementia/alzheimers exists, brain injuries, mental illness and traumatic experience can all alter us as people. 

Plus I feel like you could definitely build a strong allegory for stormcast losing parts of themselves in service of sigmar with the mental cost (like ptsd) soldiers in the real world experience from service or even just the parts of ourselves we give up for our careers etc. 

 

Edit: all that said, Cos regular humans are probably the easier relateable protagonists/faction but maybe more boring? 

Edited by Mattrulesok
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7 minutes ago, dirkdragonslayer said:

I am debating whether the hand grenade rumor engine is it's own dedicated unit (Some sort of Hobgob GobLobber) or if it is a special weapon for the basic Kroolboyz. With all the vials and bottles we have seen so far I wouldn't be surprised if one of their units throws witch's brew with different effects (like a Orruk version of the Alchemist from Tactics Ogre). So far from rumors/stuff we sort of can guess;

  • Warboss on some sort of Squig-Warg.
  • Squig-Warg riders.
  • Shaman with cauldron who splashes volatile brew
  • Basic Kroolboyz on foot
  • Maybe the rumored Hobgobs are their ranged unit. Bomb/Potion throwers?

Since Starter sets tend to have 6-7 units per side I am a bit short. Maybe a small artillery piece or a third hero?

Yeah basic troops on foot, a unit of ranged/skirmishers, small unit of elite/mounted, plus a melee hero, mounted hero and a caster hero would be a safe bet. 

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2 hours ago, Dawnmane said:

I just wanted to comment on the whole "this could be a Star Wars League IP": I'm pretty sure it can't. Fans of Warhammer games tend to forget that they only work because fans are able to read the satirical subtext (or don't care about it, which can be a bit worrying). Star Wars is a universe that speaks to a monomythical human desire to fight against oppression, become the person you were meant to be, and happy, reconciliatory endings. Star Trek is (or used to be) to some extent a story about the triumph of humanism. Marvel is about finding your identity and finding value in your flaws in order to protect society.

Warhammer, on the other hand, is about death, destruction, militarism and violence. It's ALSO a criticism of those things, definitely, but Warhammer fiction outside of its somewhat cutesy plastic miniature iteration will never be summer blockbuster material. That's not because of bad marketing or because people haven't discovered it yet, but because it really leaves no room for the "believe in yourself and be a good person and things will be alright" stories that all the other big franchises rely upon. Also, the fascistoid aesthetic of the Imperium is not going to work in Western cinema, either (I hope!)

Maybe someone will make a cult hit of a movie out of it, or a grimdark HBO-esque TV series, but it's never going near the big franchises without fundamentally changing what it's about. 

[edit: had to add this] also: Warhammer is satire, which is not something you can succesfully export to global popular culture without a lot of unfortunate misunderstandings happening. And if it's not satire, it instead becomes a very problematic narrative universe promoting values that aren't getting anywhere near Hollywood in such an unmasked form.

from a commercial point of view it's something that could well be of interest at some point - and I'm not talking about in the near future - I'm talking about decades away.  It's another universe or world that can be used.

As for what it is and what it isn't - I'm enough of a longbeard to see the whole of warhammer change beyond what it started out as  - I bought that very first warhammer box, and the very first rogue trader book and models.  So it's really anyone's gambit on what it will be in ten or twenty years in the same way that back in the 80's we never saw what it's become now.

That's why I think the cementing of the brand and it's identity to a as wide an audience as possible is a shrewd move, as anything can happen a decade on from now.

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2 hours ago, Bosskelot said:

I already pay for Netflix and Amazon Prime. I'm sure lots of people pay for Disney+ and Crunchyroll and whatever else on top of those.

Yet another streaming service is one too many at this point and is why a lot of them are slowly failing. We've reached peak saturation.

It might be the time that we need to jump between those services. You know, May with netflix, cancel, June with Hbo Max, cancel, July with Warhammer+...

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Apologizes in advance for joining the non-rumor discussion but im really enjoying the conversation on the merits and difficulties in expanding the GW IP's beyond the niche fanbase it has now.  

Arguably I think the easiest to market IP would be their Old World Fantasy.  Its easy to sit general audience down and say "These are the High Elves, Dwarfs and German-lite Humans, they are the good guys and these Orcs, Evil Elves and Spiky Humans are the bad guys".  And honestly I have been dreaming of a Gotrek tv series since I first read Trollslayer way too many years ago.  

Age of Sigmar on the other hand, while i've grown to love the setting and factions, seems almost too abstract and full of backstory that it would be hard to market (at first at least). 

Warhammer 40k as others have pointed out comes loaded with a whole lot of baggage that I think even GW dosen't quite realize yet.  Stuff that would work great on the table and in the novels won't work as well in a transition to a medium marketed for the general audience.  Now I'm sure they will come up with some amazing things and I'm sure ill enjoy much of it but even as someone who only somewhat keeps up with the 40k setting, i'm still conditioned to the nuance of the setting. 

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56 minutes ago, SunStorm said:

For the most part I agree with a lot of Space Marines being boring, but the Horus Heresy gave me some of my favourite marine characters that aren't all just duty and honour, such as Kharn, Sevetar, Amit, etc.

exactly! the horus heresy made not only space marines and but also the primarchs beings that aren't emotionless killing machines. they crack jokes to each other, form friendships, have their own ideas for the perfect universe and so on, even one of the first marines we get to know at the start of horus rising contradicts the stereotype that marines are just boring, that being tarik torgaddon who is far from a mindless automata

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, SilentSentinel said:

That's a pretty brutal looking axe

AoS RumourEngine6 May23 Image

 

Damn and that matches the Spear type RE from months ago as well!! Their weapons really do look like they inflict as much pain and damage as possible, some might call that Kruel...

Edited by KingBrodd
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