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8 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

"You uncultured swine, let me put you in a cage, rip your skin off and eat your heart. You know, like civilized people."

Alarielle is a vain and fickle goddess, Kurnoth systematically comes as brutally honest to main character in the book.

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7 minutes ago, Sorrow said:

Still, it does not change the fact that followers of Kurnoth kill followers of Alarielle on sight, and vica versa. Even humans devoted to one of them kill each other in Dark Harvest.

 

 

Yes, they are definitely enemies in the lore, enough to be counted as a separate faction, but rules wise they would share some units.

But there is precedent for battletomes to share units with Tzeentch and Beasts of Chaos, so wouldn't be surprised to see it happen. 

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I think people should not put too much hope in BL novel like Dark Harvest, though myself adore it.

It’s more like a seconded-creation by Josh rather than some thing from GW’s own lore studio.

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The bit of Kurnoth we see in Dark Harvest - the bit that is opposed to Alarielle and whose followers attack/were attacked by Sylvaneth on sight is not the bulk of the being that was Kurnoth for most of the Age of Sigmar timeline though, and not the same "Kurnoth" that was used to make the Sylvaneth/Wanderer Kurnothi

The "Kurnothi" as we have seen them in Underworlds/Cursed City are the children of the Sylvaneth Kurnoth - the Huntsman-Warrior and consort of the Everqueen. This Kurnoth is still capable of savery - as are the Sylvaneth as a whole - and is still a god of beasts and hunting, just not one solely concerned with finding prey and vengeance. Those fragments were cut out when Alarielle remade him. Those parts are the parts we see in the book - the Old Stag.

I like the Old Stag, and I would love to see a Destruction faction built around it - an army of human and aelven cultists who have forsworn Sigmar's pantheon in favour of something they see as more immediate and primal, joined by fenbeasts and supernatural hounds of Orion - or even a way to play Cities of Sigmar with different allegiance abilities to show their worship of the Old Stag. Its one of the coolest god-ish level beings in the setting, and I loved Dark Harvest and everything about the Old Stag.

But, what the Old Stag is not is Kurnoth. It is not even a god. It could be a god again - and indeed that does appear to be its hope and its plan - but it is, for now, just an impossibly powerful magical being. It is the fragments of Kurnoth that would not kneel, thrown away because the Everqueen did not feel they would be useful and given an eon to brood and stew and scream in hate. But Kurnoth - the consort of Alarielle - went on without it, and the Kurnothi are drawn from Kurnoth, not the Old Stag.

Some people have suggested that the Kurnothi could be a dual-allegiance faction: Order when they serve Alarielle, Destruction when they don't. And that could be a way to get both flavours people want - there could even be an arc of the Old Stag learning of the death of Kurnoth and moving towards claiming his throne as the "true"/remaining Kurnoth, if the main settings writers decide to lean into the Dark Harvest material.

However, saying that Dark Harvest is the only lore that defines Kurnoth and should dictate what the Kurnothi are ignores everything else we have seen of Kurnoth in the Battletomes and Side Games, and indeed much of what we learn about Kurnoth and the Old Stag in Dark Harvest itself.


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Honestly as long as they arrive in some form I'll be happy. I'm interested in how Kragnos plays out- with Alarielle holding Kurnoth's spear perhaps Kragnos takes his mantle and Kurnoth stays absent. Or perhaps he's something different altogether, perhaps even faction less. 

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I will be delighted if we get Kurnothi,  no matter if we get them with Sylvaneth or not.

It would be amusing if our Kurnothi talks end up being rubbish and they never come.

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I don't understand why there seems to be so many people who what Kurnothi to be these savage forest dwelling animal men who hate Sylvaneth. We already have that, its called Beast of Chaos.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see Kurnothi expanded as either their own force or a branch of Sylvaneth, but I would like them to be their own thing and not just Beast of Chaos but elves and better, because you know they would be.

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7 hours ago, Chaos Shepard said:

I don't understand why there seems to be so many people who what Kurnothi to be these savage forest dwelling animal men who hate Sylvaneth. We already have that, its called Beast of Chaos.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see Kurnothi expanded as either their own force or a branch of Sylvaneth, but I would like them to be their own thing and not just Beast of Chaos but elves and better, because you know they would be.

My problem with the Lore of the BoC is that almost all their motivations resembles a Destruction faction to me. 🤔

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1 hour ago, Nezzhil said:

My problem with the Lore of the BoC is that almost all their motivations resembles a Destruction faction to me. 🤔

I interpret that Destruction Factions more so cause Destruction for want of a good fight or is just a bi product of their actions. Warclans just love a good scrap, Ogor Mawtribes constant search for food causes them to Destroy what they need to, Sons of Behemat cause Destruction by simply being, where they go Destruction happens. Gloomspite Gits are the only ones who seemingly have a plan in wanting the Bad Moon to take over the Realms.

BOC want Destruction for Chaotic means, they dont want a fight or are searching for something they want everything to burn to the ground, no civilisation, no order, nothing but the Wilderness and Chaotic wilds. In that sense they are more Chaotic than the Grand 4. They literally want to watch the world burn.

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22 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

I interpret that Destruction Factions more so cause Destruction for want of a good fight or is just a bi product of their actions. Warclans just love a good scrap, Ogor Mawtribes constant search for food causes them to Destroy what they need to, Sons of Behemat cause Destruction by simply being, where they go Destruction happens. Gloomspite Gits are the only ones who seemingly have a plan in wanting the Bad Moon to take over the Realms.

BOC want Destruction for Chaotic means, they dont want a fight or are searching for something they want everything to burn to the ground, no civilisation, no order, nothing but the Wilderness and Chaotic wilds. In that sense they are more Chaotic than the Grand 4. They literally want to watch the world burn.

Destruction is not only fight, the big monsters or the elemental incarnates are affiliated to Destruction too. Destruction is the wild hunting, the law of the strongest and surveillance over the civilization. 

Ogors rule big cities where they eat and they have big parties. Gloomspite have big underworld empires and both factions are good crafters. I think Destruction don't understand Order, but they are not stupid savages most of the time.

Druids and shamanic humans could be a Destruction faction too.

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9 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

Destruction is not only fight, the big monsters or the elemental incarnates are affiliated to Destruction too. Destruction is the wild hunting, the law of the strongest and surveillance over the civilization. 

Ogors rule big cities where they eat and they have big parties. Gloomspite have big underworld empires and both factions are good crafters. I think Destruction don't understand Order, but they are not stupid savages most of the time.

Druids and shamanic humans could be a Destruction faction too.

Oh I never considered  Destruction to be stupid or savage. The Great Gutfort in Ghur rivals a lot of Free Cities in size and the Gits have Empires that are vast kingdoms as you say. I wasn't talking about culture per say just how they view the world. Gordrakk himself has amassed a Waaagh larger than any before in AOS and indeed far larger than any from WHFB, you dont get to that sort of position from being a dumb brute. 

As they say Might makes Right.

I would love to see a Destruction based Human faction, there are definitely mortals out there who dont want to worship the God King and why would they he abandoned them and why join Chaos? They would surely rather die in combat. 

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3 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

Oh I never considered  Destruction to be stupid or savage. The Great Gutfort in Ghur rivals a lot of Free Cities in size and the Gits have Empires that are vast kingdoms as you say. I wasn't talking about culture per say just how they view the world. Gordrakk himself has amassed a Waaagh larger than any before in AOS and indeed far larger than any from WHFB, you dont get to that sort of position from being a dumb brute. 

As they say Might makes Right.

I would love to see a Destruction based Human faction, there are definitely mortals out there who dont want to worship the God King and why would they he abandoned them and why join Chaos? They would surely rather die in combat. 

Well, In my opinion Gordrakk is a big problem for the evolution of the Grand Alliance Destruction. My hope is that Kragnos becomes the rival of the Big Waaagh and we can see lads worshiping Kragnos over Gorkamorka.

 

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10 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

Well, In my opinion Gordrakk is a big problem for the evolution of the Grand Alliance Destruction. My hope is that Kragnos becomes the rival of the Big Waaagh and we can see lads worshiping Kragnos over Gorkamorka.

 

I'd love nothing more than to have multiple Destruction gods. I really hope more do come to diversify the Alliance. 

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Think of it like this - a human, aelf, dwarf, seraphon, sylvaneth can all attain a state of living where they are at peace and feel fulfilled. They can build mighty settlements and attain a state where they be productive and happy without any combat. Indeed for most of them its the state they would ideally like to live and actual brutal combat leaves scars upon them (physically and mentally).

Destruction can't live like that as a whole race. They can for a time, but they've a wildness to them. A nature that calls in their very core for combat, fights and the struggle to be the strongest, biggest and best. Just like a dwarf can't pass by gold, they cannot pass by that physical and metal shift into combat. It's that which separates them and which draws them back toward different goals than the Order factions. 

 

I think the only Order faction that would get close are the Daughters of Khaine with their blood and heart magic and their survival of the fittest attitude. However its important to realise that those are choices they make as part of their religion and that at their core they are simply aelves. If time were different Morathi could guide them toward new concepts and ideals. Sure with their long life spans it might take a while for the "old guard" to change and settle or die off so that a new generation would bring in new ideals, but they could achieve a peaceful/less brutal way of life if it were an option. 

 

An Orruk though is an Orruk down to the marrow in its bones. 

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There has been instances of orruks in society. 

In the first realmslayer audio drama, when gotrek wakes up in a prison cell, there is a orruk in the cell next to him who was arrested for being drunk and disorderly. 

This shows he was served alcohol somewhere, wasn't killed on sight and he went with the watch when they arrested him. 

That's not to say he's tame or not dangerous of course. Or what he was doing a city. Maybe a trader or trapper. 

It was just one line in the script but that one line opens up possibilities. 

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2 hours ago, KingBrodd said:

I interpret that Destruction Factions more so cause Destruction for want of a good fight or is just a bi product of their actions. Warclans just love a good scrap, Ogor Mawtribes constant search for food causes them to Destroy what they need to, Sons of Behemat cause Destruction by simply being, where they go Destruction happens. Gloomspite Gits are the only ones who seemingly have a plan in wanting the Bad Moon to take over the Realms.

BOC want Destruction for Chaotic means, they dont want a fight or are searching for something they want everything to burn to the ground, no civilisation, no order, nothing but the Wilderness and Chaotic wilds. In that sense they are more Chaotic than the Grand 4. They literally want to watch the world burn.

Buuuut it's not too far a stretch.  If Kurnothi don't like civilization and want to burn it all to the ground, and BoC also doesn't like civilization and want to burn it all to the ground... 

I sort of believe there's little stopping BoC from being Destruction as is, besides their pedigree of chaos in the past.  They don't even really care for the four chaos gods at all.  I don't know that individual worship should dictate current alliances as much as it does, but maybe that will change in AoS 3.0.    I think the point of the poster earlier is that Kurnothi and BoC, albeit for different reasons, would have a potential lot of thematic undertones that overlap, even if there was some conspicuous differences.  Does AoS really need two factions that both have satyr/centaur/etc types that want to destroy civilizations... be it returning to nature or for chaos or destruction, it's VERY similar.

Of course, that's not to say that will be the motivation when it comes down to it, but it's a reason for a lot of BoC folks to be skeptical that it's awfully close to the same.  Who knows what GAW is going to do - there are definitely some hybrid options possible here - and frankly i feel chaos did BoC so wrong at this point they should make like the Fimir and become Beasts of Destruction.  If some angry kurnothi want to dual faction in because they hate Arielle, have at it.

 

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1 minute ago, Fyrenn said:

Buuuut it's not too far a stretch.  If Kurnothi don't like civilization and want to burn it all to the ground, and BoC also doesn't like civilization and want to burn it all to the ground... 

I sort of believe there's little stopping BoC from being Destruction as is, besides their pedigree of chaos in the past.  They don't even really care for the four chaos gods at all.  I don't know that individual worship should dictate current alliances as much as it does, but maybe that will change in AoS 3.0.    I think the point of the poster earlier is that Kurnothi and BoC, albeit for different reasons, would have a potential lot of thematic undertones that overlap, even if there was some conspicuous differences.  Does AoS really need two factions that both have satyr/centaur/etc types that want to destroy civilizations... be it returning to nature or for chaos or destruction, it's VERY similar.

Of course, that's not to say that will be the motivation when it comes down to it, but it's a reason for a lot of BoC folks to be skeptical that it's awfully close to the same.  Who knows what GAW is going to do - there are definitely some hybrid options possible here - and frankly i feel chaos did BoC so wrong at this point they should make like the Fimir and become Beasts of Destruction.  If some angry kurnothi want to dual faction in because they hate Arielle, have at it.

 

Personally I'd like to see BOC stay with Chaos to an extent if only to have a more animalistic interpretation present. I believe BOC is up there with Seraphon in terms of a revamp. Seraphon got the Coalesced to help define their lore and I think BOC could get something similar, not that changes them but defines them more perhaps? More importantly give them a massive model overhaul.  

New Bullgors, Gors, Ungors, Bestigors, Centigors, Dragon Ogors and especially Dragon Ogor Shaggoths. Shaggoths should be close to Mega Gargant size and bloody terrifying. 

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I like the dragon ogor kit, I think it's a long way down the list of things that need revamping. It might be nice to see another kind of dragon ogor, so that a whole thunderscorn army is more of a reasonable proposition? Ungors are prettymuch fine as well, but the current gors are a poorly thought out retool of an ancient kit and they neither cast up nor go together well. Bestigors in more than one pose would be welcome, but that's unlikely given that they're more recent. The things that are really suffering are beastlords (the resin model is smaller than a bestigor), chariots, centigors (these look nice for their age, but they're hell to assemble and they have exactly one pose) and of course the razorgor which nobody liked even when it was new. New chaos spawn would be nice, too.

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26 minutes ago, Urauloth said:

I like the dragon ogor kit, I think it's a long way down the list of things that need revamping. It might be nice to see another kind of dragon ogor, so that a whole thunderscorn army is more of a reasonable proposition? Ungors are prettymuch fine as well, but the current gors are a poorly thought out retool of an ancient kit and they neither cast up nor go together well. Bestigors in more than one pose would be welcome, but that's unlikely given that they're more recent. The things that are really suffering are beastlords (the resin model is smaller than a bestigor), chariots, centigors (these look nice for their age, but they're hell to assemble and they have exactly one pose) and of course the razorgor which nobody liked even when it was new. New chaos spawn would be nice, too.

I completely forgot about the Chaos Spawn. I'm not a fan of it at all and the Razorgor could become an incredible model if they do it correctly. Demonic Pumba mixed with a Gore Grunta. 

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27 minutes ago, Urauloth said:

I like the dragon ogor kit, I think it's a long way down the list of things that need revamping. It might be nice to see another kind of dragon ogor, so that a whole thunderscorn army is more of a reasonable proposition? Ungors are prettymuch fine as well, but the current gors are a poorly thought out retool of an ancient kit and they neither cast up nor go together well. Bestigors in more than one pose would be welcome, but that's unlikely given that they're more recent. The things that are really suffering are beastlords (the resin model is smaller than a bestigor), chariots, centigors (these look nice for their age, but they're hell to assemble and they have exactly one pose) and of course the razorgor which nobody liked even when it was new. New chaos spawn would be nice, too.

Really?

I don't mind the Gors, actually - and I feel weird about buying super old models. It's nothing compared to some of the really new stuff, but I know a painted gor still looks decent and not derpy, like the razorgor, bullgors, or even the ghorgon (in my opinion) still do.  

I'm in a  camp where i don't 'believe' in bestigors, to my own detriment.  still trying to figure out how to convert untamed beasts to beastlords or besties.  

 

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2 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

I completely forgot about the Chaos Spawn. I'm not a fan of it at all and the Razorgor could become an incredible model if they do it correctly. Demonic Pumba mixed with a Gore Grunta. 

The thing is chaos spawn at least have a lot of options; while i'm sure they could make a new kit, it's the one thing i feel most comfortable proxying and so on.  Unfortunately we can't expect everything to get updated, so it's more like... if you could have 2 models updated, and 2 models new - what would you have updated?

Chaos Spawn would just never hit that list for me.  

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51 minutes ago, Fyrenn said:

I sort of believe there's little stopping BoC from being Destruction as is, besides their pedigree of chaos in the past. 

 

I see this a lot and not to pick on just you, @Fyrenn but aren't BoC THE original children of chaos? Like the very basic core of chaos energy is what makes them? So removing them would completely retcon their whole idea and lore?...

I can see where they would fit aesthetically but wouldn't this just be goat orruks and grots?

@Overread explains it well a few posts up as to why this doesnt wok.

 

 

Keep your filthy goats and goat aelves out of destro!!😅😜

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1 minute ago, Vasshpit said:

I see this a lot and not to pick on just you, @Fyrenn but aren't BoC THE original children of chaos? Like the very basic core of chaos energy is what makes them? So removing them would completely retcon their whole idea and lore?...

I can see where they would fit aesthetically but wouldn't this just be goat orruks and grots?

@Overread explains it well a few posts up as to why this doesnt wok.

 

 

Keep your filthy goats and goat aelves out of destro!!😅😜

Additionally Slaanesh just got a new BoC unit further entwining the faction with the Grand Alliance. Also more and more Beasts have been appearing in the 40k setting alongside Chaos.

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2 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

Additionally Slaanesh just got a new BoC unit further entwining the faction with the Grand Alliance. Also more and more Beasts have been appearing in the 40k setting alongside Chaos.

I believe the goats the worship the 'main' chaos gods are ostracized for doing so.  It's not pure, primordial chaos - in a way those four are a perversion of 'true' chaos.

I'd personally love to see more exclusions as well as inclusions in factions based on leaders, heroes, etc.  BoC can't even ally in the slaanesh / tzeech gors even if they've chosen to mark themselves as such.  Humans are varied, so are beasts. If some Sylvaneth can worship Arielle, and potentially some can worship Kurnoth (which I think is where this conversation sort of started?)  Why can't some beasts be the 'chaos' ones, and others be the '****** that noise, we worship true chaos, and you gods don't even know what that is'?  I think i'm advocating that the "Chaos" alliance is more the "Chaos from the interpertation of the Chaos Gods" alliance?

6 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

I see this a lot and not to pick on just you, @Fyrenn but aren't BoC THE original children of chaos? Like the very basic core of chaos energy is what makes them? So removing them would completely retcon their whole idea and lore?...

I can see where they would fit aesthetically but wouldn't this just be goat orruks and grots?

@Overread explains it well a few posts up as to why this doesnt wok.

 

 

Keep your filthy goats and goat aelves out of destro!!😅😜

No, you're absolutely right.  One of my jists was that I don't know I agree that what they worship should be the defining factor of what makes an alliance going forward.  If we accept that primordial chaos =/= the big four, 

I'm not advocating them not being beings of chaos, but since they are not controlled by the apparatus of chaos (ie, the "order" of chaos, the chaos gods or archaon, or humans that specifically worship those four)  the reason for them in the chaos grand alliance AS IS, they are already an odd duck.  

I suppose it's my bad for considering destruction more as an alliance based on motivation as opposed to religious / political beliefs.  Destruction is less about conquering, and more about destroying. So... while chaos gods and lords want to conquer, beasts want to burn and move on.    They're not motivated by being the strongest or bestests (orruks?) and grots seem way to civilized.  I think what keeps them apart is bringing all civilization, regardless of origin, down.  

I see the grand alliances collapsing and maybe the paradigm of how these alliances are set up are going to change... and if that's the case, it might not be so far fetched. 

Now... we might find that Kragnos brings back some old mythical Dragon ogor civilization of Azyr or something, but we'll ignore that.

 

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