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29 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

I feel like the Lumineth release will tie to Broken Realms and that the Mounted Model is possibly Tyrion. However, I could absolutely be wrong and it could be more substantial. What was the biggest release to come out of Psychic Awakening? I know Admech got some cool new things but that is pretty much the beginning and end of my knowledge of new units being released. I know some Eldar models were updated and a few named characters got updates as well.

For my part I'm more inclined to believe that the BR Lumineth release will only be a few models (and probably generic heroes) just to fill in the gaps a little, and the next wave will come later.

That said, I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

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1 hour ago, Acrozatarim said:

Lumineth also had an unusually tiny number of warscrolls with their initial release, iirc, even by small faction standards.

Yeah is that true? (genuine question)
To me as someone who isn't all to interested in them it doesnt feel like it. But maybe it's more the variation rather than the amount. It has cavalry, defensive and offensive infantry, ranged, big centrepiece model, named characters, support characters. It's only missing a generic combat character, i feel. (10 warscrolls right? Not counting endless spells)

If I look at other AoS specific released armies I collect or am looking at:
DoK 5 kits + a morathi as the centrepiece. but all but one have two build options. (harpies, snakes, witches, cauldrons, warlocks but some of them old models)
Stormcast: ungodly amount of kits. 
Kharadron: 3 ships, two units of infantry, "cavalry" with two builds, 3 support characters and a named character.
(not really interested in, but quick counting on release AoS armies comes to: Ironjawz: 8 warscrolls, Fyreslayers 13, (but 6 of those are just the same mounted vs unmounted hero), Was Sylvaneth released specific for AoS? 13 warscrolls for them. 

So yeah smaller than I thought but it's definitely the most rounded off the small factions. But the factions converted from the old world are massive in comparison. 

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Posted (edited)

Lumineth didn't get fifty thousand varieties of Hero like other new armies, which shrunk their Warscroll count but if you're going by actual units - which, lets be fair, is what really counts in the opinion of this Fyreslayer player - they didn't come out of the launch too badly compared to the other AoS-only armies.

Edited by Clan's Cynic
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It lacks unamed heroes and number of Warscrolls. Also the list building has some synergy limitations that makes the roster feel smaller.

Lumineth  got:

3 named heroes (Teclis, Eltharion and Avalenor)

2 unamed ones (mage and cow mage)

4 troops (1 batteline and other conditional one) (Spear/Bow/Cav/Cow hammers)

1 non hero behemoth. (unnamed cow)

Only the Behemoth kit is a dual kit.  10 Warscrolls.

 

Rulewise, there isnt much incentive to mix Alarith with Vanari, so most lists will have little variation, specially on gameplay. Boils down to Teclis/No Teclis, Spears or hammers, Cow faction/not.

The result is: Teclis(maybe)+Spears+bunch of archers or Full cow+ bunch of archers, and both play kinda the same. Slow moving castle. 

 

Cant make a cavalry army for example because there is only 1 fast unit in the whole army. Eltharion looks good on paper but kinda do not fit the gameplay of the army itself, so most lists dont use it.

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11 hours ago, alghero81 said:

That’s why Glaivewraith Stalkers despite potentially being the first Skaven undead they are just garbage with uninteresting lore. They could fix them easily with 2 wounds to make them elite, rend on charge, etc but why fixing an 8£ unit?

Can we do that "horse vs rat skull" thing again? I know the whole debate died like... two years ago, but I'm always for bringing back pointless drama.

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54 minutes ago, Thiagoma said:

It lacks unamed heroes and number of Warscrolls. Also the list building has some synergy limitations that makes the roster feel smaller.

Lumineth  got:

3 named heroes (Teclis, Eltharion and Avalenor)

2 unamed ones (mage and cow mage)

4 troops (1 batteline and other conditional one) (Spear/Bow/Cav/Cow hammers)

1 non hero behemoth. (unnamed cow)

Only the Behemoth kit is a dual kit.  10 Warscrolls.

 

Rulewise, there isnt much incentive to mix Alarith with Vanari, so most lists will have little variation, specially on gameplay. Boils down to Teclis/No Teclis, Spears or hammers, Cow faction/not.

The result is: Teclis(maybe)+Spears+bunch of archers or Full cow+ bunch of archers, and both play kinda the same. Slow moving castle. 

 

Cant make a cavalry army for example because there is only 1 fast unit in the whole army. Eltharion looks good on paper but kinda do not fit the gameplay of the army itself, so most lists dont use it.

It is not a bug, it is a feature. 
 

It seems to me that GW doesnt want us to play a single AoS army, but rather collect a whole bunch of very specialized and diverse armies. It feels like a skirmish game that you play with large unit sizes.

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I mean purely in terms of warcrolls,  Lumineth is (currently) the the smallest faction next to Sons of Behemat.

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It's a bug resultant of the fact that GW cannot release armies the size of Skaven every month so that AoS could have every army be that big. Some got it - Nighthaunt, Stormcast, Gloomspite Gitz - whilst others have it as a hold-over - Skaven, Seraphon. 

The rest are armies waiting for more. Daughters of Khaine have had a couple of new kits; Slaanesh is getting a nice chunky second wave. I'm sure there are many others. Thing is GW is not going to give it to everyone at once. WE just have to wait it out and see what comes.

 

 

Heck most armies lack an artillery option; many don't have monstrous creatures that aren't leaders etc... Basically there are gaps all over the place and we just have to wait it out. Most of the small armies can justify a big update of models and I'm sure GW is aware of that; its just timing and waiting it out. Some armies are going to get lucky and some are going to have to wait a long time. Best we can hope is that GW keeps drip feeding models into the game so that those who don't get a big update still get a nice number of smaller updates in the waiting period. 

 

 

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They choose to introduce factions this way, they could go slower and have larger releases. I’m fine, of the new sculpts, I’m getting gitz and slowly fyreslayers. So one bad draw and one with decent unit variety (not in actual playing lists, but in the collection) . But I can still see it for what it is. 

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10 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

They choose to introduce factions this way, they could go slower and have larger releases. I’m fine, of the new sculpts, I’m getting gitz and slowly fyreslayers. So one bad draw and one with decent unit variety (not in actual playing lists, but in the collection) . But I can still see it for what it is. 

I figure GW's pattern is to get lots of armies out to start with and then grow them steadily over time. That means smaller armies have a chance of building at least a modest fanbase for when they do get big lauches. It reduces the risk that GW releases 20 new Ossiarch Bonereaper models in one massive go and - no one likes them. Or rather that no one likes them enough. Which means GW has to then invest even more marketing to push for that army above others. 

 

It's much easier to slow-grow and get a steady buying market and expand upon that. Which is pretty much how most armies have come around. Heck Necrons used to have only a handful of models for a long while before they got any major updates. 

 

Stormcast are a vast exception being a totally new army that got a massive range of releases; but at the same time they were THE marketing focus and even now are heavily marketed. There just isn't room to do that for every single faction in the game and it honestly can produce a huge swingy release scheme that sees one army get a lions share of everything at the detriment to the others.

 

 

I'm sure there's a sweet spot for models, but its hard to see right now after Corona messed up a lot of plans last year (and thus year). 

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

It is not a bug, it is a feature. 
 

It seems to me that GW doesnt want us to play a single AoS army, but rather collect a whole bunch of very specialized and diverse armies. It feels like a skirmish game that you play with large unit sizes.

Are you referring to allies?  Lumineth have a very, very short list of other factions they will allow to ally with them.

More accurately, I assume you build one army, finish it, then build another army?  Games Workshop can try all they like, but a customer is only going to buy what they want.  You and I might want a second, third or fifth army, but just by participating on this forum, it shows we probably are a bit more involved in the hobby compared to the average player.  I suspect there are far more people out there that stick with a 'main' army and less commonly build another one.  Especially to the same size of their 'main.'  If I was to hazard a guess, I would say GW is leaving money on the table not expanding armies after a while.  Many new collectors often wait for these milestone release waves or occasionally become enamored with an additional wave unit that finally has them start an army.  I did it with Primaris space marines with the expansion of Phobos (the scout, tacticool looking armor) marines.  Heck, my Slaves to Darkness army was initiated in part by the announcement of a Start Collecting and new battletome.

I personally think a combination of new factions and expansions with the occasional refresh to existing factions is probably the most optimal way to make money in a miniatures wargame.  There's probably a time when there gets to be too many factions and/or a faction becomes too bloated with units.  Which I think arguments in 40k can be made for both occurring.  For Age of Sigmar, I don't think there are too many factions, and I also don't think any faction is too bloated with units yet.  Though, I think the number of factions is getting there, but many a faction could use a second wave infusion of models.

Edited by Saturmorn Carvilli

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1 hour ago, KriticalKhan said:

Can we do that "horse vs rat skull" thing again? I know the whole debate died like... two years ago, but I'm always for bringing back pointless drama.

Ahah, why? No one uses them anyway. Tried to sell few without success for months now...

Lumineth mountain temple (Alarith) is made of 3 kits and 4 warscrolls. The wind temple could be the same and we already saw at least 2 models, it’s possible one is dual and we have a similar size. Multiply by 4 and add Tyrion and his side of the Vanari or whatever they will be called and you actually have a huge army with many options in few years. Skaven was not built in a day...

Patience my aelementari...

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I think, judging from lifespan, it's hard to judge AOS for bloat just yet - right now imo, everything is been fairly gucci.

We are 5 years in, after all, and it is only in the past 2/3 that AOS has really 'found itself' and fixed the obvious teething problems.

I would say that we have only reached 'maximum capacity' once it becomes a struggle for each faction to have a 'reasonable' release over an edition.

In my opinion, 'reasonable' on the standards of at least one new sculpt/model and new battletome per edition.

If we reach a point in 3rd or 4th where that's not happening - where factions - like has been previous trends in 40k - with factions living multiple editions out-of-date - then yes, wind back.

But right now?

Bloat us with shiny new stuff - take my wallet idc - gimme.

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50 minutes ago, Overread said:

Stormcast are a vast exception being a totally new army that got a massive range of releases; but at the same time they were THE marketing focus and even now are heavily marketed. There just isn't room to do that for every single faction in the game and it honestly can produce a huge swingy release scheme that sees one army get a lions share of everything at the detriment to the others.

And even Stormcast initial release wasn't that masive. 

Paladins and Prosecutors had several build options, but there were basically 5 units. Liberators, gryph hounds, Judicators, Paladins and Prosecutors. 

I think is the enormous rooster of characters (9) that they started with and that they released Extremis Chamber within a year  that makes Stormcast release look that big.

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Well, if GW wants people's love, they better start releasing fewer Aelves and more stuff for other races. Orruks and Dwarves got almost nothing useful for AoS in a LOOOOONG time now. Skaven and Seraphon desperately need updates. Meanwhile we got Fish Aelves, arguably Tree-Aelves, Daughters of Khaine, Buck-aelves, Light Aelves, Shadow Aelves in Warcry...(with the real Shadow Daemon-Aelves coming one day) now we get more Light Aelves.  Aelves are AoS space marines now. xD 

I dunno how it is with you guys but in my region Aelves are no more popular than Dwarfs. And both of those groups are small compared to Ork, Chaos and human players.

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14 hours ago, Austin said:

So, new models are great for sure.  BUT- does this Lumineth business not make people at all perturbed? 

All this is assuming the new models are in fact Lumineth.  Am I the only one who thinks that is a less than ideal business practice? 

If we all assume, and I think this has been taken as truth for a while, that models are made well in advance of release, why in the world weren't these models in the army book?  I thought that Slaanesh was a bit close, hard to  believe that the mortals weren't in development then, but if this pans out it will be a new level.  Although we have people on these forums who claim the Lumineth was a complete release, all you have to do is read the book to know it isn't, and this potential new release proves it.

It sure looks to  me like GW is trying to find the minimum sized release and squeeze money out of people with multiple book releases.  So you can be happy with new models, but I would rather GW doesn't try to nickel and dime us (hundred and thousand us it more like it haha).  Just a thought.  The answer of course is to print books with models they are still working on....and quit running scared from the Chapterhouse saga.

Have you actually bought and played the army? What makes you think they aren’t a “complete release” compared to other armies? 

The army works fine as it is. It’s not like you can’t play or win with it. You have enough tools to   cope with different situations, and there are several viable builds out there. 

Yup, it’s lacking certain elements others have, like a genuine unnamed melee hero, and that’s limiting in gameplay, and in addition it’s a problem for people who expected something else than a magic-focused Teclis army. Hence there are a lot of complaints.

But on the other hand, having some clear restrictions is also a good thing. Armies having everything are also having issues (being too good, no weaknesses, unit bloat, internal imbalance, useless units etc.). And many newer armies share the same thing. Most of them are smaller, with some aspect missing. 

I bought the army box and started painting Lumineth since then. I’m not the fasted painter, but I’m just now on the verge of finishing 2,000 points (5 archer models left). I still have 24 Mountain models left to paint. I also got a few in-person games in. If they had released even more at the start, it wouldn’t have been helpful. On the contrary, it could have been overwhelming. That’s monetary and hobby-wise. Of course you wouldn’t have to buy everything at the start, but then there is no reason to release everything at that point.

Especially if you get into the game again as such with a faction - which I think they expected a good chunk of the people to be who play Lumineth (because of how the army box was constructed). 

It’s actually pretty cool, that now, when many of us have gotten their stuff done, and got a bit used to the army, we get fresh, new things. That’s awesome. One of the best things is to speculate about the new stuff with other players. And hopefully some of the new kits will draw in additional people to the faction. 

So, no I’m not perturbed, especially not as long as I don’t know how they implement it. If they make a new Battletome, which includes all the current models and just 3 new kits, then yeah, that’d suck for me. But if they are released within Broken Realms in some form, that’d be awesome. I’d bought those books anyway.

Over time this approach has the disadvantage of having to buy more books and keeping track of where’s what, especially for people who come later to the faction, but at that point this can be rectified by a new Battletome which includes everything. At the moment, for a new army I think the gradual release approach has more advantages than disadvantages. It’s not overwhelming to start, and keeps people engaged more with them having something to look forward to every 6 months or so instead of a big release, and then nothing for several years. 

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2 hours ago, MitGas said:

Well, if GW wants people's love, they better start releasing fewer Aelves and more stuff for other races. Orruks and Dwarves got almost nothing useful for AoS in a LOOOOONG time now. Skaven and Seraphon desperately need updates. Meanwhile we got Fish Aelves, arguably Tree-Aelves, Daughters of Khaine, Buck-aelves, Light Aelves, Shadow Aelves in Warcry...(with the real Shadow Daemon-Aelves coming one day) now we get more Light Aelves.  Aelves are AoS space marines now. xD 

I dunno how it is with you guys but in my region Aelves are no more popular than Dwarfs. And both of those groups are small compared to Ork, Chaos and human players.

Leave the fish elves alone, Morathi was their first rules update since they got their book. They haven't even gotten a token character model update since they launched.

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I think that a army with only 3 units out of heros and 5 years since was released(fyreslayers) must get any new kit before armys as slanesh that got many kits less one year ago or lumineth that were released months ago.

 

It is a joke as gw is releasing new kits for these armys when fyreslayers(and ironjaws but they have bonespliters now) :

is the army with less units of the game(ok behemaths have less but....).

Is the oldest of all aos(original aos1 army)

Is the army with more monotone aesthetical(all nude dwarfs)

 

Fyreslayers need some big as cavalry,armored dwarfs,or a join tome together other dwarfs,but need something

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, MitGas said:

Well, if GW wants people's love, they better start releasing fewer Aelves and more stuff for other races. Orruks and Dwarves got almost nothing useful for AoS in a LOOOOONG time now. Skaven and Seraphon desperately need updates. Meanwhile we got Fish Aelves, arguably Tree-Aelves, Daughters of Khaine, Buck-aelves, Light Aelves, Shadow Aelves in Warcry...(with the real Shadow Daemon-Aelves coming one day) now we get more Light Aelves.  Aelves are AoS space marines now. xD 

I dunno how it is with you guys but in my region Aelves are no more popular than Dwarfs. And both of those groups are small compared to Ork, Chaos and human players.

I think the Aelves are in a somewhat strange narrative position that Games Workshop wanted to untangle. I like the Aelven gods and their Lore. I feel narratively they are so intertwined that it seems somewhat strange to get Morathi but not Malerion, Teclis, Alarielle or Tyrion. Furthermore, I think that this all ties into the unbinding of Slaanesh. 

 

However, this justification does not resolve GW. As this narrative importance of Aelves was not shared by the other gods. I hope to see the lore expanded but I think it only will once this narrative hurdle has been somewhat resolved.

Here's hoping Grungni, Valaya, and Grimnir get as much narrative importance soon. May be if the Aelves are so deeply entwined with Slaanesh the Duardin gods can narratively tie to ancient grudges with Gorkamorka! Especially if the Siege of Azyr is the narrative start point for the next edition.

Edited by Neverchosen
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We're only one book into Broken Realms. Let's save the table flipping and claims of elf favortism for a bit later on. Right now we've just seen Morathi start the ball rolling and we don't know where it's all going to go from here.  I get it, the internet needs to be mad about something, but I don't think we know enough about the story they're telling to make judgement calls on who is or isn't getting stuff.

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Posted (edited)

If the rumored death faction is zombie focused I hope they make giant Nurgling style swarms of the dead. Moving many dozens of troops even with the aid of trays is not fun.

Edited by Eldarain
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3 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

Have you actually bought and played the army? What makes you think they aren’t a “complete release” compared to other armies? 

The army works fine as it is. It’s not like you can’t play or win with it. You have enough tools to   cope with different situations, and there are several viable builds out there. 

Yup, it’s lacking certain elements others have, like a genuine unnamed melee hero, and that’s limiting in gameplay, and in addition it’s a problem for people who expected something else than a magic-focused Teclis army. Hence there are a lot of complaints.

But on the other hand, having some clear restrictions is also a good thing. Armies having everything are also having issues (being too good, no weaknesses, unit bloat, internal imbalance, useless units etc.). And many newer armies share the same thing. Most of them are smaller, with some aspect missing. 

I am not criticizing your army.  I am criticizing the way GW has released it.  I am glad you like the army.  Can we move past the knee ****** defense?  If anything I am saying you should have gotten more.

You can surely see the difference between working fine and complete though right?

Or are you going to sit here and tell me that you are loving the Ymetrica and Syar command traits and artefacts of power on your Cathallar or your Stonemage?  That those don't suggest to you some missing melee?  You seem to understand that, but yet claim that doesn't suggest those traits were designed with a particular set of models in mind.  Or, lets not even look that deeply.  What about the other half of the pantheon the entire faction is based on?

You know what you need to play a game? A hero and some battleline.   Does that mean that GW should release a book with two units (ok ok yes Sons of Behemat)?  You could probably win a few games.

I have to admit I don't even understand your way of thinking.  You can be happy you got an army and still consider, just CONSIDER, that GW is making it more expensive than it should be by a new business model that says release the bare minimum to sell an army book and hope that apologists will make excuses or that we will just accept it without the slightest of negative feedback.  It is OK to say that GW could be better....

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, Austin said:

I am not criticizing your army.  I am criticizing the way GW has released it.  I am glad you like the army.  Can we move past the knee ****** defense?  If anything I am saying you should have gotten more.

You can surely see the difference between working fine and complete though right?

Or are you going to sit here and tell me that you are loving the Ymetrica and Syar command traits and artefacts of power on your Cathallar or your Stonemage?  That those don't suggest to you some missing melee?  You seem to understand that, but yet claim that doesn't suggest those traits were designed with a particular set of models in mind.  Or, lets not even look that deeply.  What about the other half of the pantheon the entire faction is based on?

You know what you need to play a game? A hero and some battleline.   Does that mean that GW should release a book with two units (ok ok yes Sons of Behemat)?  You could probably win a few games.

I have to admit I don't even understand your way of thinking.  You can be happy you got an army and still consider, just CONSIDER, that GW is making it more expensive than it should be by a new business model that says release the bare minimum to sell an army book and hope that apologists will make excuses or that we will just accept it without the slightest of negative feedback.  It is OK to say that GW could be better....

I understood what you mean. And on top of it, you can criticize the army of course. I don’t mind that (and even if so, who cares). I asked you if you bought and played the army because I wanted to know if you speak from experience or just theoretically, that’s all.  

I don’t think it’s perfect. But then no other army is as far as I can tell, and that’s not strictly tied to the numbers of kits or Warscrolls at the time of release of the army. 

I think, it’s fine that we didn’t get more at the start. As I mentioned, I prefer having smaller but more regular releases to a big one and then nothing for several years. 

No, I don’t find all the artifacts and traits great. But the army is still powerful enough, and they don’t hinder my enjoyment of the army. It’s a good book, all the factions are pretty much viable, there is no real bad warscroll in there, and the battalions are mostly useful. And yup, some of the artifacts and traits aren’t great, we could have more variety etc. it’s not perfect.

CoS has lots of units and options, are they all good, just because they had them all from the start? Weren’t CoS players happy that they got an update, and a chance to buy models with Broken Realms? Which weren’t even new... . Would they have preferred to wait for another 2 years for a bigger update with a new Battletome because they saved the money to buy BR Morathi? Wouldn’t Skaven players be happy to get new stuff during Broken Realms? 

I think the Lumineth BT was designed to work on release, and simultaneously in a way that they can easily add to it, because they likely have found out that’s a better way to do things than having one big release and then nothing for along time (or they want to try a new concept). So half the pantheon missing and some things not being great at the start isn’t a bug, but part of the concept. A lot of us who bought the Battletome thought that they will add more units to it pretty soon. The Wind Temple was one obvious candidate, as it’s almost fully described in the tome already (the only thing which made it ambiguous is because so far GW hadn’t done it in this way except for Stormcast). 

I’m not saying nothing is missing, especially for some people. I’m saying if you read the Battletome, the current lack of melee heroes and half the pantheon missing is explained sufficiently (it’s Teclis magic weirdo vanguard army). But it’s still perfectly playable in its current form. It’s doesn’t feel to me like it’s the “bare minimum”.  

To the second part of your argument. I think this is a too simplistic way of looking at it. Whatever method they chose, they can make an army more expensive. And people want regular updates for their army. Read the last two, three pages with all the people complaining about how they don’t have the chance to give GW more money, because GW prefers elves or something like that. I rather have the option to buy new models more frequently while talking with others here about all the exiting new stuff than not having that option. I don’t have to buy anything anyway. No one forces me to buy cloud mages. But having the option on a more frequent basis is great. I’d be happy to have the option in 6-9 month to buy new models for the River Temple again. 

I personally prefer this way to having one big release, and then nothing for years, with the exception of a single hero or something like that. I don’t think this is perfect, or there aren’t downsides to it (likely more people would have found the Lumineth interesting if it had Tyrion, a melee hero, flying monsters etc. from the start, or you might spend more in the end because you have to buy more books). I still think this is the better way to do it though. 

Edited by LuminethMage
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i think most people thought the LRL was an incomplete release just by comparing them to the release of Bonereapers and IDK  (4 foot heroes  compare to LRL 2  + Eltherion and  then the Leige Kavalos/ Akelian King equivalent) if the teased  units  is a mounted lord and a small hero, then it probably complete the stuff that should have been in Wave one

probably what happen was that 40k 9th edition was coming up and they had an earlier deadline to get the book done and remaining hero where just shelved until now.

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13 hours ago, Jeremierty said:

 As much as I'd love to dissert about the awesome new lumineths teases, I thought It would be glad to share this for our chaosy friends. Seems like new nurgle awesomeness is around the horizon :)

Screenshot_2021-01-02-18-13-58-933_com.facebook.katana.jpg

Thanks a thousand times!!! I hope this will come true very soon. We need this new battletome and some ugly and slimy endless spells;) And Nurglings should be battleline....

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