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1 hour ago, Rob Hawkins said:

That's the point I was making, too.  We literally had a new Marine codex LAST YEAR, with all the chapter supplements, and it's already trash.  Glad I decided to skip it, especially since I play Templars, and would have had to get a $40 Psychic Awakening book for the Templar rules, which are now a free PDF on the Community site. 

If GW wants to maintain a "living" rules set with publications that have shorter lifespans than a dayfly, that's fine... but then they shouldn't be $40 full-color, hardcover books.  They should be softcover B&W with a color insert at a much cheaper price.  If the rules are this disposable, then the books should be disposable.  I thought we were entering the age of "free online rules" but it turns out that players are practically spending more on rulebooks than they are on models to play these games.  (That's certainly the case with Warcry).

This is just a fact. 
I try not to buy any GW books anymore since they turn out to be trash paper quicker than you can playtest it. And the rules quality is, as usual, all over the place.

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1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

This is just a fact. 
I try not to buy any GW books anymore since they turn out to be trash paper quicker than you can playtest it. And the rules quality is, as usual, all over the place.

Just a minor quibble, and certainly not directed specifically at you (it's just that you reminded me of it) :

 

Playtesting is what is done pre-release to refine the rules before publication. This is what the designers and the, well, playtesters do.

 

Playing is what is done after release to enjoy the finished product. This is what players do.

 

Like so many other "get off my lawn" things, this one irks me. :)

 

As you were.

 

Edited by Sleboda
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So as far as a soulblight army is concerned, there were some hints in the blood bowl presentation on Saturday that there’s a classic horror team on the way. Sadly that could explain all the vampire and werewolf rumor threads we’ve been seeing. I hope I’m wrong, as is really like a soulblight AOS army.

 

the next issue of Spike magazine is supposed to feature a new necromantic army, and there’s a Frankenstein’s Monster on the cover

Edited by Gothmaug

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4 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

So as far as a soulblight army is concerned, there were some hints in the blood bowl presentation on Saturday that there’s a classic horror team on the way. Sadly that could explain all the vampire and werewolf rumor threads we’ve been seeing. I hope I’m wrong, as is really like a soulblight AOS army

i think it for the Necrmantic team that they revealed in August

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/07/terrifying-touchdowns-from-beyond-the-grave/

on a side note, i have notice that Bloodbowl and other certain specialist games generally don't get rumor engine teases

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8 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

So as far as a soulblight army is concerned, there were some hints in the blood bowl presentation on Saturday that there’s a classic horror team on the way. Sadly that could explain all the vampire and werewolf rumor threads we’ve been seeing. I hope I’m wrong, as is really like a soulblight AOS army

That team has already been leaked. It doesn't solve any of the rumour engines.

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2 hours ago, Verminlord said:

There goes my hopes for a warcry rat ogor resculpt😢

Yeah these starter boxes are nice [depending on price] but I was hoping for dedicated new sculpts- hopefully they are coming to supplement these kits ..

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50 minutes ago, novakai said:

i think it for the Necrmantic team that they revealed in August

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/07/terrifying-touchdowns-from-beyond-the-grave/

on a side note, i have notice that Bloodbowl and other certain specialist games generally don't get rumor engine teases

Great! Here’s hoping that AOS soulblight becomes a reality

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Been working on my black Library submission, now that I'm finally free, I have to say the new slaanesh warband is making my wallet weep in pain. Still, GW have nailed the aesthetic. 

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8 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Playing is what is done after release to enjoy the finished product. This is what players do.

Mhm, are you sure? English isn‘t my native language but I think one, as a player can playtest given rules to get a picture of how those rules work and to judge said rules, can‘t you? Just playing would not take into account that you are actively testing a given ruleset. :)
 

playtest translates to „Testspiel/Spieltest“ which at least, in German, is not necessarily an activity only the game designers and testers undertake.

Edited by JackStreicher
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7 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Mhm, are you sure? English isn‘t my native language but I think one, as a player can playtest given rules to get a picture of how those rules work and to judge said rules, can‘t you? Just playing would not take into account that you are actively testing a given ruleset. :)
 

playtest translates to „Testspiel/Spieltest“ which at least, in German, is not necessarily an activity only the game designers and testers undertake.

I agree. Every new d&d edition after 2nd, a group of fellow DM's run a few test games to see what's what. We also call these test games (or Rage, Loot and Pillage, after the first three characters we tested).

But then, I'm also not native English.

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14 hours ago, KingBrodd said:

What are we guessing the Catacombs box to be priced at? £80?

The first Warcry starter was £100, I’m expecting at least the same, if not more. 

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I don't wish to put words in @Sleboda's mouth, but what I believe he's saying is that "playtesting" is a stage of development carried out by "playtesters" chosen by the company before a product is released. Playtesting is done to see if the game runs as intended or if things need tweaking before its released.  

Once you own the released product, you play using the rules and test things but wouldn't generally call that "playtesting".  It might seem like semantics, but in this context playing a game to test things is slightly different from something being "playtested".  

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In English we'd call those trial games, learning games or maybe test games. However that is not the same as playtesting which is specifically done as part of the development of the game. It is equivalent to what computer games call the Alpha and Beta testing. So you are only playtesting if your feedback is actually going to be collated by the designers and used to write the battle tome. 

If the book is already published then it could be a test game for you, but GW neither knows or cares, and isn't paying you to try it out , so it's not play testing.

Now a lot of RPG companies have adopted a much more open approach where they release a beta version of the rules six months to a year early and get feedback from a massive open play test process. They then feed that back into final development and incorporate it into the finwl book. GW don't do that. THey kind of accept feedback just after a book is written and the release errata, but since they do this after you've bought the expensive unchangeable rule book rather than six months before it isn't considered part of the playtest process. That is done in house and by a small group of third party testers who sign an NDA to get an earlier version of the rules. I'd much prefer an open playtest to their publish and errata model but that doesn't seem likely.

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

I agree. Every new d&d edition after 2nd, a group of fellow DM's run a few test games to see what's what. We also call these test games (or Rage, Loot and Pillage, after the first three characters we tested).

But then, I'm also not native English.

 

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1 hour ago, Still-young said:

The first Warcry starter was £100, I’m expecting at least the same, if not more. 

In a better world it would be a bit less, has a lot more cardboard and a lot less plastic. Doubt it'll happen though.

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11 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

In a better world it would be a bit less, has a lot more cardboard and a lot less plastic. Doubt it'll happen though.

Wild guess: it‘ll be at least 150€ 🙃😵

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1 hour ago, EccentricCircle said:

In English we'd call those trial games, learning games or maybe test games. However that is not the same as playtesting which is specifically done as part of the development of the game. It is equivalent to what computer games call the Alpha and Beta testing. So you are only playtesting if your feedback is actually going to be collated by the designers and used to write the battle tome. 

If the book is already published then it could be a test game for you, but GW neither knows or cares, and isn't paying you to try it out , so it's not play testing.

Now a lot of RPG companies have adopted a much more open approach where they release a beta version of the rules six months to a year early and get feedback from a massive open play test process. They then feed that back into final development and incorporate it into the finwl book. GW don't do that. THey kind of accept feedback just after a book is written and the release errata, but since they do this after you've bought the expensive unchangeable rule book rather than six months before it isn't considered part of the playtest process. That is done in house and by a small group of third party testers who sign an NDA to get an earlier version of the rules. I'd much prefer an open playtest to their publish and errata model but that doesn't seem likely.

I think it's a case of Dutch and German having simply less words than English, which makes translating them back to English use a smaller set of words

I do prefer open testing, like WotC's UA or Pathfinder 2.

Coasters still don't have a price on it though, probably just on the site to add the SKU if you buy a big boi and to show whether they are still in stock.

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1 hour ago, EccentricCircle said:

In English we'd call those trial games, learning games or maybe test games. However that is not the same as playtesting which is specifically done as part of the development of the game. It is equivalent to what computer games call the Alpha and Beta testing. So you are only playtesting if your feedback is actually going to be collated by the designers and used to write the battle tome

Interesting!

In Germany the term is not used in that way, however the term „Playtester“ as profession is used in the way you described 🤔

Thanks for the info, I‘ll try my best not to misuse the term from now on :)

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2 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I think it's a case of Dutch and German having simply less words than English, which makes translating them back to English use a smaller set of words

I do prefer open testing, like WotC's UA or Pathfinder 2.

 

Interesting, yeah, definitely seems to be a linguistic difference.

In fact it was Pathfinder 1 that pioneered the open playtest model, or at least implemented it on a large enough scale to be significant for the first time. Paizo have been pretty open about their design process since the start, and so WotC saw that that worked, and began doing it themselves with the big "DYD next" playtests. Its become more and more common in the last decade or so since the original Pathfinder Playtest rulebook. I believe Fantasy Flight used that model for their Star Wars RPG too.

I wish that GW would take that approach rather than releasing books which they know are going to be errata'd and replaced in due course. Clearly they think that the book won't sell if people have already had access to the free rules, but I think that the success of the model elsewhere shows that that isn't the case. Paizo actually release two editions of the core rulebook, a playtest version, and then the proper version later on. They seem to sell the main version well enough, and WotC clearly haven't had a problem with people sticking with the playtest rules/

I'd think in a wargame setting, where everything is a lot more standardised and the tourney crowd obsess over using the most up to date and complete rules set, it shouldn't be a problem at all.

 

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2 minutes ago, zamerion said:

160 euros the new warcry box 🙃

Where you getting this from?

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Scary fact - so far there are no unicorns in AoS!

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45 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I think it's a case of Dutch and German having simply less words than English, which makes translating them back to English use a smaller set of words

I don't think thats true at all. Not to mention that the Dutch language incorporates a lot of english. 

Wikipedia seems to agree with me, but that's not always the most reliable source.But I can't find any source that list more words for english than dutch

1507054658_Screenshot2020-10-19at11_24_44.png.e9f1ab1e7fd90b218f033a29b157c08e.png

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