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5 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

For me, it killed interest in Warcry. Fits the GW rules scheme though.

To be fair the rules are readily available online everywhere and these new books would most likely not replace the existing cards. If you are interested in a campaign system you don’t mind paying for your own GA book, if you just want to play then you just need 30£ warband or if you already have an army an even cheaper set of cards. 
To answer @Kramer you don’t need Tome of Champions, these books most likely will replace it. Otherwise in theory should come a new one towards the end of the year. But to complete a full campaign with a warband takes time so with one GA book you should be good for quite some time.

I personally look forward to get the Death one, Nighthaunt suffer from the same AoS syndrome with underpowered rules and amazing models, but FEC and OBR are solid warbands.

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9 hours ago, Matrindur said:

ASxV2YFCl3DqbVLF.png

We don't have any Lumineth with swords like that at the moment so maybe a tease whats coming next for them?

Not necessarily. The Fyreslayers and Sylvaneth Warbands both have weapons that don’t exist in the books

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The Slaanesh warband is great indeed. I hope we'll get a Tzeentch warrior like that one day (maybe when they redo the Curseling or something) as these specific warrior designs are a joy to look at in general... The Slaangor is also very nice. The distinctly persian vibe they gave Slaanesh since the last wave works well. 

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4 hours ago, Lhurgoyf said:

Would also be absolutely gutting if 4 months down the road they just release another Tome of Champions (like they said they would last year) that just has all the GA stuff in it.

I think you are underestimating what was in the Tome of Champions 2019, how much additional stuff they can add to each GA book, and don’t realize how big a Tome of Champions with all of that plus more stuff would be.

For me, it literally comes down to whether they set a respectable price, or go full Sons of Behemat.

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9 hours ago, sandlemad said:

Those new Slaanesh models are exquisite. So many good details, from the scarification and mismatched boots of the champion to the eerie little masks of the grunts. The peacock feather-fletched arrows. The matching shoulderpads. The matching discs with their god's emblem on the right of their chest, classic Slaaneshi asymmetry. The similarities between the champion's spear and the grunt's glaive, with their ridged concave spear-butts and corkscrew hafts. The teeth on the bottom of the champion's shield matching the teeth on the bottom of his armour.

The Lumineth by comparison are just ok. I like base scenery in general and don't put much credit in the idea that they pin down the model to specific battlefield positions or whatever but having them all stand on their own individual sets of rocks with individual bonsai trees... eh.

The mage is cool, I like his mildly silly esoteric stance even if his facial expression is odd and vacant. The stoneguard looks appropriately stoic and has a good variation on the poses you get with the regular AoS models. The archer's pose is weird, like she's standing on her tiptoes atop the rocks. Doesn't really work. Either something bracing after the shot, something solid, or a Namarti-style running and jumping pose would be better. The swordswoman isn't great.  No flow to the stance, just sort of staring into space, chunky details on the banner and bannerpole. They're a mixed bag.

Ruleswise... The Slaanesh crew look strong. Damn.

I have an other take on the Sentinel. It's to show how much she is in control of her body, right after she has shot. I really like it. Besides the tip-toeing on the rock (which wouldn't make sense for a human archer), the pose looks pretty much like what you see when actual archers have shot an arrow. The bow hand relaxes a bit while the hand holding the arrow is kept in position for a moment. 

It does at least work as well as a barefooted archer with a sight-impeding mask on his face, and no string on his bow (and I really like the Slaanesh archer as well, I think the model looks great. It's just you can always find a rationalization for models you do like). 

I agree with the sword woman, her pose also doesn't work well for me. I think it's because they have settled on the Lumineth to almost always be shown a  reflective, on-guard position, because it fits with their description of the Teclian culture. They are always meant to be shown as calm, solemn, unmoving, not only the Stoneguard. And sometimes that sadly doesn't work that well, like with the great sword wielder. If we'll ever see Tyrionic models, I'm sure they'll look more energetic and aggressive, that's what his side of the Lumineth is all about. 

All in all though, two really great looking new warbands. Excited to find out what the other 6 will be. 

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9 hours ago, Kramer said:

What are people’s thoughts on the Warcry books?

seems a bit harsh to charge a book per GA. Although it would be a nice pick up for new players like me. 

although it also would mean 3 GA books, time of champions, and core book if I want to be able to play my aos armies. That’s a bit much. 

I'm mixed. I mean, I own all the cards, and the quests (or whatever they are called) in the existing materials are good enough for me, so I'm not seeing the value in them (for me), but if they have fixes (like the gitz OP rule that I firmly believe is an error), then I feel like I'm gonna have to buy them.  Plus, with the new starter set coming, I'm assuming these will be out of date in no time at all.

 

So, mixed.

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1 hour ago, Fairbanks said:

I think you are underestimating what was in the Tome of Champions 2019, how much additional stuff they can add to each GA book, and don’t realize how big a Tome of Champions with all of that plus more stuff would be.

For me, it literally comes down to whether they set a respectable price, or go full Sons of Behemat.

Yeah ToC 19 was sweet. I'm just not convinced the quality of last year's release means much for this year. Wotc does this all the time for Magic, where they release a product with excellent value, only to bring it back the next year with less effort trying to coast on reputation (challenger decks is a recent example).

 

Hopefully we learn more about them tomorrow to clear the air on what exactly they'll bring to the table. 

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7 hours ago, Greasygeek said:

@Neverchosen & @KingBrodd

You guys are too cool, the positive vibes you spread always brings a smile to my face.

Keep doing what you do😎🔥

Oh wow, that is really fantastic to hear. I never would have guessed that my silly posts on this forum could have a positive real world impact. 😇
I really look forward to sharing my thoughts and hearing the thoughts of this community on all of the news that comes out. COVID has been really rough particularly as we are all invested in a social hobby. So it is nice to have a friendly medium in which we can commiserate and share.  

Returning to rumours, were any rumour engine images uncovered by any of todays reveals? 

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1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

I'm mixed. I mean, I own all the cards, and the quests (or whatever they are called) in the existing materials are good enough for me, so I'm not seeing the value in them (for me), but if they have fixes (like the gitz OP rule that I firmly believe is an error), then I feel like I'm gonna have to buy them.  Plus, with the new starter set coming, I'm assuming these will be out of date in no time at all.

 

So, mixed.

What does this come to... $200 worth of rules in 2 years to play a game with 7 models per side?

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7 hours ago, alghero81 said:

To answer @Kramer you don’t need Tome of Champions, these books most likely will replace it. Otherwise in theory should come a new one towards the end of the year. But to complete a full campaign with a warband takes time so with one GA book you should be good for quite some time.

Let’s hope so. And I understand that it takes time to complete the quests. 
but it does limit, depending on the price, easy acces to a variety of war that I can have at home for friends to play. 
if the books are about the price of two or three card packs it’s fine for me. 
but even if they replace the time of champions you’re still 2 to 6 books deep when you start the game and that allows you acces to 1/4 of the roster. 

but it is the next chapter in a constantly expanding book of GW making it more and more expensive to get the full experience of their games. 
and when it is models that get more expensive it’s one thing. When it’s the rules it starts to feel like a videogame with DLC on release day. A bit of a money grab. 

and as a final note, to me it seems weird to make the ‘get into the hobby’ game that initial investment heavy. 

Edited by Kramer
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3 hours ago, Neverchosen said:

Oh wow, that is really fantastic to hear. I never would have guessed that my silly posts on this forum could have a positive real world impact. 😇
I really look forward to sharing my thoughts and hearing the thoughts of this community on all of the news that comes out. COVID has been really rough particularly as we are all invested in a social hobby. So it is nice to have a friendly medium in which we can commiserate and share.  

Returning to rumours, were any rumour engine images uncovered by any of todays reveals? 

Yeah, we got a couple of rumour engines yesterday, both from the Warcry warbands. 

image.png.b7dd035863abe9f3d256d524d06aa22d.png

image.png.91de2dab770a97798d0b41fbc340f5cc.png

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8 hours ago, alghero81 said:

To be fair the rules are readily available online everywhere and these new books would most likely not replace the existing cards. If you are interested in a campaign system you don’t mind paying for your own GA book, if you just want to play then you just need 30£ warband or if you already have an army an even cheaper set of cards. 
To answer @Kramer you don’t need Tome of Champions, these books most likely will replace it. Otherwise in theory should come a new one towards the end of the year. But to complete a full campaign with a warband takes time so with one GA book you should be good for quite some time.

I personally look forward to get the Death one, Nighthaunt suffer from the same AoS syndrome with underpowered rules and amazing models, but FEC and OBR are solid warbands.

The main draw Warcry had for me, would be drop in games outside of my regular group. I'd only play one or two warbands. This means that with new books coming out, chances are I'd spend as much (or more) on paper as on plastic (and that's for a fixed model game), which I don't do. I also don't pirate.

I already have a few non-progression skirmish games, so I don't need it.

Edited by zilberfrid

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I never understood that way of thinking. People had the same problem with Kill Team epansions and it doesn't make any sense. You decide what you include in your games. You can still use old cards and campaign from Tome of Champions (or just missions from core book). Warcry is still as beginner friendly as it wa.s in the beginning. You don't want to use Monsters and Mercenaries book? You can do that.  You don't want to use GA books? You can do that. No one is going to say you are doing your hobby wrong.

I'm happy that those books are made, because now  I do not have to fear that cards I wanted for my warband will go OOP.

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37 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

The main draw Warcry had for me, would be drop in games outside of my regular group. I'd only play one or two warbands. This means that with new books coming out, chances are I'd spend as much (or more) on paper as on plastic (and that's for a fixed model game), which I don't do. I also don't pirate.

I already have a few non-progression skirmish games, so I don't need it.

Fair enough, for drop in games you don’t need any of these books, hence why these books are tailored to a specific part of the community. You don’t need any book to play Warcry, and I’m not referring to download illegal material, but the core rules can be told by your pals while you play. It’s not like Warhammer Fantasy... it’s even simpler than AoS.

If you are into campaigns then you expand your game with more books. If you are not, then 30£ warband would go for it. I don’t understand why those books would raise the cost of starting Warcry. I would definitely not recommend any book to one starting Warcry. There’s no need. If you like it, a couple of books at 15-20£ are not that bad. If you have a warband from every GA and want every book, then you are as “nerd” as me and already have invested much more than just “2 more books” 😂😂

TLTR to start Warcry you don’t need any book but a pal to explain you how to play. If you like it then you can expand with the campaign system for which one book is enough (per warband). If you love it then yeah costs raise fast (scenery, more warbands, all books...)

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1 hour ago, michu said:

I never understood that way of thinking. People had the same problem with Kill Team epansions and it doesn't make any sense. You decide what you include in your games. You can still use old cards and campaign from Tome of Champions (or just missions from core book). Warcry is still as beginner friendly as it wa.s in the beginning. You don't want to use Monsters and Mercenaries book? You can do that.  You don't want to use GA books? You can do that. No one is going to say you are doing your hobby wrong.

I'm happy that those books are made, because now  I do not have to fear that cards I wanted for my warband will go OOP.

The problem is that for a lot of communities, if it's published material then it's absolutely fair game to include it. From groups who have a crippling fear of houseruling to those who want any published material to literally any advantage it gives them.  This isn't all groups, but it's been enough for me to notice it. .

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1 hour ago, michu said:

 

I never understood that way of thinking. People had the same problem with Kill Team epansions and it doesn't make any sense. You decide what you include in your games. You can still use old cards and campaign from Tome of Champions (or just missions from core book). Warcry is still as beginner friendly as it wa.s in the beginning

 

Might be the case. But that’s not how it looks from the outside to me. 
so I do get that way of thinking. 
But I’m looking at a skirmish game in which I can use the models from my armies.  So friends come over, don’t have time for a full game, grab a skirmish game. 
That’s how it looks from the outside. 

Then I look into what I need. So I need a core Rulebook, terrain set, card pack per army. If I want the full experience with challenge battles, campaign rules for those factions, monster and mercenary rules if I want to play together vs a big beast. etc I need a lot more. 

now the GA books replacing the card packs going to depend on price. Because it saves me the tome  of champions and the card packs, I hope. So that can be a good change if you have a lot of armies and are just now jumping in like me. On the other hand, it’s hard to imagine it’s going to be cheaper. I have armies I’d like to play across three different GA’s. But that’s super situational, I agree with that.

so from my perspective, and I’m usually the person hosting so I want to offer the full experience, I need quite a bit. 
you can tell me that, for example, I don’t need terrain cards/sets and just set up a table and skip that step. And you’re probably right, if you say so. But I don’t know that until I play it. Same for mercenaries, champions and anything else you argue that you don’t need. I don’t know that until I try it.

so to me, and I realise that I’m the kind of guy that wants the full experience, The rules I want feel fragmented and DLC like. Buy super smash bros, but you get that greyed out character that you actually wanted to play as a kid, so you need to pay an extra 20% of the full price per extra character.  

But a lot is down to communication. Monsters and mercenaries is clearly an expansion to me. So I don’t mind getting that later. The other things feel like I need them for the full experience.
same with necromunda. The one 40k game that tempted me into getting into a 40k game. 

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2 hours ago, michu said:

I never understood that way of thinking. People had the same problem with Kill Team epansions and it doesn't make any sense. You decide what you include in your games. You can still use old cards and campaign from Tome of Champions (or just missions from core book). Warcry is still as beginner friendly as it wa.s in the beginning. You don't want to use Monsters and Mercenaries book? You can do that.  You don't want to use GA books? You can do that. No one is going to say you are doing your hobby wrong.

I'm happy that those books are made, because now  I do not have to fear that cards I wanted for my warband will go OOP.

I don't like overcomplicating rulesets, and I don't like spending a lot of money on rulesets.

At best, I'm a casual wargamer, which means about 2 games per month. This means a simpler ruleset will work fine for me. GW's rulesets have a depth to them that I'm simply not interested in. I also value balance over uniqueness, and while GW is good at uniqueness, balance is less consistent. I also prefer using my own models (or have anyone use their own models) which GW's rulesets are not designed around. Then there's the point of price, and GW is quite a bit more expensive than companies like Osprey. I will also just use my own lore, and thus have no need for GW's lore (which also puts me off tonally, except in a few cases like Goblins, half of Cities and Kharadron).

I want to know the opponent's options and understand them as well as knowing my own options and understand those. The more of these options get locked away in books, the less I am able to do that.

I'm not saying anyone else is doing their hobby wrong, but the strong suits in GW's rulesets are not that important to me, while their weakpoints are important to me.

Edited by zilberfrid

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38 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

The problem is that for a lot of communities, if it's published material then it's absolutely fair game to include it. From groups who have a crippling fear of houseruling to those who want any published material to literally any advantage it gives them.  This isn't all groups, but it's been enough for me to notice it. .

In my opinion it's the problem with those groups' inflexibility not the rules. Especially when in GHB2018 GW even endorsed houseruling with their own examples.

And TBH do those groups really expect that beginners will have every single book?

30 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Same for mercenaries, champions and anything else you argue that you don’t need. I don’t know that until I try it.

I don't understand that thinking. I believe that you should go easy on players, especially new. Don't flood them with additional rules at the beginning of campaign. Add it slowly. So at first use only core rules. Then later you might add monsters and mercenaries. Then other rules. And even if then buying those books is too much for you then there is another solution! It's not like every player in your group need every book. Create "rules library" - you buy those books for your whole group, you basically share them.

24 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I don't like overcomplicating rulesets

Those books don't make Warcry overcomplicated - they are mostly gathering of older rules in one place! With just new campaigns that you don't really need to experience the game. If you have old cards and core book you have everything to fully enjoy the game.

Oh, and last thing - you treat Warcry as only skirmish wargame - but for me (and probably GW) it's more a mix of skirmish wargame and RPG-lite.

Edited by michu
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43 minutes ago, El Antiguo Guardián said:

One question,

Next preview will be on 31st?

They haven't mentioned anything about a preview in the Warhammer Community article.. but I'm hoping- might get teasers of WarCry and Underworlds war bands maybe? They might not have mentioned it yet in case it took away from yesterdays preview.

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I think most are expecting some previews on the 31st for Warhammer day because, well, there's not really much else GW can do right now for the event. They can't run games; they can't run store promotions or such. Heck even though Warhammer World is allowing games once again its very spread out and by booked appointment only; plus its really not the time to encourage people to travel there for the event. 

 

So yeah I figure a recap of the last year's releases and events and some look toward the future would be expected for the event. Perhaps not massive previews but at least something. Heck by that point we will have the Warcry stuff out; we know what's coming for Bloodbowl and Underworld and we know what's in November for AoS fairly well. 

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7 hours ago, Rob Hawkins said:

What does this come to... $200 worth of rules in 2 years to play a game with 7 models per side?

If I were a single warband, single game player ... If my whole jam was Warcry, then sure, maybe. But I'm already dropping appx $300 (on low, not-much-new months) to over $1000 (on new-army-hotness months) on GW per month. That doesn't even include my spending on Monsterpocalypse, X-Wing, various Kickstarters (just got Super Fantasy Brawl and an hyped for Ankh, Bloodborne, and Massive Darkness 2), and potential new games (Marvel Crisis Protocol, Star Wars Armada, Mantic's Armada). 

 

Add in actually trying to find time to play Warcry (with the 7 warbands I enjoy) in addition to all those games plus others (Mansions of Madness, Pandemic Cthulhu, Arcadia Quest, Zombicide), and the value I would get from four books that are, essentially, reprinted info with maybe a scrap or two of updated or new info ... and yeah, $200 (on the low end, I'm guessing) is a tough ask from me.

Edited by Sleboda
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3 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I also don't pirate.

Just wanted to 👏👏👏.

It's good to find people with character out there.

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4 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

If I were a single warband, single game player ... If my whole jam was Warcry, then sure, maybe. But I'm already dropping appx $300 (on low, not-much-new months) to over $1000 (on new-army-hotness months) on GW per month. That doesn't even include my spending on Monsterpocalypse, X-Wing, various Kickstarters (just got Super Fantasy Brawl and an hyped for Ankh, Bloodborne, and Massive Darkness 2), and potential new games (Marvel Crisis Protocol, Star Wars Armada, Mantic's Armada). 

 

Add in actually trying to find time to play Warcry (with the 7 warbands I enjoy) in addition to all those games plus others (Mansions of Madness, Pandemic Cthulhu, Arcadia Quest, Zombicide), and the value I would get from four books that are, essentially, reprinted info with maybe a scrap or two of updated or new info ... and yeah, $200 (on the low end, I'm guessing) is a tough ask from me.

So as I already said, don't buy them. They are not for beginners, they are also not for veterans (that are not interested in playing new campaigns). They are for intermediate players that haven't bought neither Tome of Champions 2019 nor warband cards for new warbands yet and want to have those rules in one place.

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1 hour ago, Clan's Cynic said:

The problem is that for a lot of communities, if it's published material then it's absolutely fair game to include it. From groups who have a crippling fear of houseruling to those who want any published material to literally any advantage it gives them.  This isn't all groups, but it's been enough for me to notice it. .

It doesn't even need to be that cynical (not accusing you of being a cynic). There are plenty of people who are opposed to house rules simply because it means they would be learning "wrong" rules, and tactics based on them, that they would have to un-learn for pickup and event games. Plus, there are folks who feel bad about telling a player who wants to use the newest expanded rules that they can't.  

As much as game companies (not just GW) like to apply this friendly "it's a toolbox - pick ala carte what you want" veneer to their selling of expansions, it's really a cop out that puts the onus on their players to have the uncomfortable moments of discussion with their opponents. They sell player 1 one experience, and player 2 an equally valid but different experience, and pass the buck of resolving the conflict on to those players, which isn't cool, in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad that our games get new stuff and that the manufacturers have things to sell to keep them in business. I'm just saying that the constant cycle of tweak slightly/recycle/patch after release/sell it again a year later is bothersome. What happened to getting in nailed down prior to release, then working on something new, and maybe revisiting the original item much further down the road? 

Not to diverge to much, but it's especially awful in 40K where a new $50 codex (+ $50 in supplemental add-ons like cards, etc.) is coming for an army at a faster rate than ever before. I mean, how many versions of Marine rules are being sold and resold over a short time these days? How often is a new edition of the game coming out compared to years ago? And don't get me started on limited edition books that get replaced in short order.

 

Anyway, I don't mean to complain. I love this stuff and buy more of it than is sane. I'm just highlighting a sticking point that feels relevant to the discussion - I wish things would be less "disposable/buy the 95% the same thing again" trend I've seen lately that seems to be accelerating compared to previous experiences.

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