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It's very interesting tactics by GW..... like Sleboda and thier tomb kings, I had a massive collection of orcs and goblins when archaon (some guy and his accountants) destroyed 8th edition and the world that was however, I decided to move along with the times and try out this 4 page rules, none mapped game with fantasy space marines wearing gold masks.......yeah at first there was lots of grumbling and wondering why all my battles where just two armies that met in the middle of a battlefield with the winner being the one who rolled best on the day, but now.......I flippin love this game! Everything I play with (all destruction armies ) seem to have a pretty good points balance IMO, all my games now are 50% tactics and 50%luck of the dice which is how I like it, I'm proper into the fluff now too......I like the idea of realm gates taking us wherever we want as it opens up much more ideas for creative gameplay and model artwork. And the best part is, going back to my old orc and goblin army, I have used loads of bits and pieces to incorporate into my ironjawz and mawtribes armies, and when new players see my army they all want to know who that massive ard boy is who's always the last to die (grimgor ironhide mate....and he gave archaon a good kickin once haha). So to conclude this ramble, I'd say GW did take a gamble but knew that the players would fix the issues for themselves.....after all this hobby is aimed at promoting creativity and that's what we do best, and look at the annual turnover for them, its gets better every year.

 

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39 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

You'll be Scrooge Mcduck with all those nickels!! I have lots of hope to give!!

1. Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

2. (From the TV show Community) Hope is pouting in advance. Hope is faith's richer, bitchier sister. Hope is the deformed addict bound incest monster offspring of entitlement and fear.

 

:)

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Posted (edited)

So I have been thinking about the inclusion of terrain in the new 9th edition 40k Start Collecting Box and it made me think of AOS and the possible content of a 3rd edition box. I feel like GW included the terrain as a means of encouraging players to learn the brand new and really interesting terrain rules. I am one of the people who is looking forward to the possibility of more refined siege rules in AOS and for those rules to be really expanded in 3rd edition. Then it occurred to me, what if we end up having a small watchtower or small walled gatehouse in the starter set, but somewhat fewer models?

They could initially do a push of a collectors box like Indomitus before shifting to the starter set to allow people a chance to quickly build the starter armies. Personally I think this would be a fun incentive to buy the starter sets even for players not directly interested in the armies provided. However, people may not be happy with fewer models. Also if they took inspiration from 40k, the smaller sets with cardboard scenery may be less than impressive.

Presumably it would be themed around a defender and attacker. I think the obvious lore choices would be Stormcast vs. Orruk Warclans, but I think that making it Duardin vs Grots might be really cool and lower the amount of plastic in the box.  I know that this is not likely to happen and if terrain were included it would likely be some ruins—but I think a siege of Azyr Starter Set would be amazing.

Edited by Neverchosen
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3 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

One of them is usually the poster boys, stormcast. Pretty sure we won't have the gobs, the DoK, the Lizards and nighthaunts...(which have been done last year).

Yeah but didn't all AoS armies have battleforces already? Bonereapers, Ogors, Lumineth and SoB are the only (?) ones left. Hope they don't quit releasing battleforces. Maybe they will start a second wave with armies that received those great boxes in the past.

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13 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

So I have been thinking about the inclusion of terrain in the new 9th edition 40k Start Collecting Box and it made me think of AOS and the possible content of a 3rd edition box. I feel like GW included the terrain as a means of encouraging players to learn the brand new and really interesting terrain rules. I am one of the people who is looking forward to the possibility of more refined siege rules in AOS and for those rules to be really expanded in 3rd edition. Then it occurred to me, what if we end up having a small watchtower or small walled gatehouse in the starter set, but somewhat fewer models?

They could initially do a push of a collectors box like Indomitus before shifting to the starter set to allow people a chance to quickly build the starter armies. Personally I think this would be a fun incentive to buy the starter sets even for players not directly interested in the armies provided. However, people may not be happy with fewer models. Also if they took inspiration from 40k, the smaller sets with cardboard scenery may be less than impressive.

Presumably it would be themed around a defender and attacker. I think the obvious lore choices would be Stormcast vs. Orruk Warclans, but I think that making it Duardin vs Grots might be really cool and lower the amount of plastic in the box.  I know that this is not likely to happen and if terrain were included it would likely be some ruins—but I think a siege of Azyr Starter Set would be amazing.

I would love if AOS 3.0 has a massive focus on Sieges, I just love the whole aesthetic of it all and the conversions people will bring about!! Will also be a great excuse for an army of Gatebreakers...

On topic of the Rumour Engine, this one has me the most excited since our Mega Gargant teases!! It could very well end up being a part of the Mega Gargant kit, the Kraken Eater has a Sharks jaw bone around his neck, perhaps this is more of the same? Extra bit for the Gargants box!!

Or just as exciting is either a Terrain piece or new model for Bonesplitterz or Ironjawz!!

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I very much doubt it as GW is notoriously sloppy with translations. Ironjawz is also mostly original AOS sculpts.

______

On another topic, notch me down as another person who really does not care about DOK durability. They are an almost entirely foot based army (the cav and fliers are very niche and not capable as a main attack/defense unit). It would be very difficult for the army to be balanced in a world where they don't have the durability buffs. Turn 2-3 units with paper defense are just not good in AOS as it's too easy to cripple them with shooting, charges, or any unit that messes up turn priority.

Even if we stick entirely to real world reasoning and ignore supernatural tropes like magic tattoos and shields of faith it's entirely plausible for lightly armored units to be very tough.

The classical sarissa phalanx is an excellent example. They used relatively small shields and modest armor. Greek hoplites also used little armor and somewhat larger shields. Granted their spears were a large part of their defensive  prowess (which DoK don't have), but the point that gigantic shields and thick metal plates are the only way to survival on the battlefield is incorrect.

If any of you have trained in classical martial arts (either HEMA or a Japanese koryu style for example) you'll know how defensively capable swords, daggers and small shields are. If you're just sitting there and taking square blows head on you're doing it wrong. A major part of defense is getting into a distance where your weapons are maximally effective and your opponent's weapons are ineffective (see also: legionary vs. phalanx). A gigantic sword or maul is much less scary super close in because even if they hit you you are likely to suffer far less damage because the weapon is moving much more slowly closer to the wielder's hands and the weighting is also disadvantageous to the wielder at that range. If you are trying to intercept an attack with your weapon or shield (or even armor), you much prefer to cause a glance than to just absorb the blow. You can parry a much larger weapon with a smaller one this way, and bucklers/daggers are great as they are very light and can be placed at the correct angle very quickly.

Perhaps DoK are extremely adept at these techniques -- using their speed and agility to maintain ideal distancing, disrupt the timing of enemy attacks and achieve very precise parries and deflections.

I agree with all of this but it's rather missing my point about them being elite. I never had an issue with their absence of armour etc for the reasons you state.

But this style of fighting you mention is precisley that-elite. It requires a dedication to a combat and physical training as an art.  It requires space to perform, it requires independence of thought and action.  

It is in short the antithesis of what most soldiers are taught- how to fight as one, in unison, to do simple things effectively in concert so as to be stronger than the sum of their parts. 

Yet in AOS the DOK are most effective  in the sort of numbers you expect of skaven and goblins while apparently all whirling around in confined spaces like helicopters.

Simultaneously in a blood frenzy which allows them to ward off pain and renders them insensible while also being somehow conscious enough to maintain the discipline and precision and clarity of martial thought and application  exhibited by the greatest of Samurai. Sure, why not.

They are an elite who also operate in enormous numbers, which is the complete opposite of what elite means. Aesthetically the way in which their force multipliers work makes a complete nonsense of them. An elite army of frenzied, psychotic but also somehow incredibly professional and disciplined sardines.

Edited by Nos

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27 minutes ago, Aeryenn said:

Yeah but didn't all AoS armies have battleforces already? Bonereapers, Ogors, Lumineth and SoB are the only (?) ones left. Hope they don't quit releasing battleforces. Maybe they will start a second wave with armies that received those great boxes in the past.

Ogors already had one (via beastclaw raiders). Amho , Bonereaper is super probable. SoB super improbable except if they do a speacial launch box with several Behemats/giants in it.

 

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I don't think fyreslayers have had a battleforce have they? Certainly not in the last three or so years that I can (semi) clearly remember.

Wait... why are we speculating about christmas battleforce boxes during a heat wave in August! That's just wrong folks.

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So... Kharadron skyport or Chamon Ironjawz encampment? 

DE0712BB-CFB4-43C8-B370-EBDAEB8311B8.jpeg

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16 hours ago, badnewsbeers said:

Which armies are the next to be abandoned do we think?

There is currently no real evidence that any army is going to be abandoned. Some have stretched the fact that Cities of Sigmar have not gotten the Warcry treatment as evidence that they are going to go, but I find this to be super uncompelling. For one, the two systems are separate. More importantly there are just a stupid number of warscrolls in Cities and it would take a lot of resources for GW to develop the faction for Warcry. Cities also makes relatively little sense in the context of the Warcry setting. TBH if any faction is a bad enough fit to get left out of Warcry it's Cities.

16 hours ago, Ggom said:

Cool insight, appreciate this. Off topic, but I imagine its much harder to train a person to fight this way (relying on reflexes, timing and dexterity) than to train them to have the strength to wield a larger shield and fight in formation. Its probably appropriate that the “army” armies of mortals would be reliant on these “more easily learned” tactic, but elves, being elves, can master the alternative approaches to defence at the rank and file level.

Nevertheless, my objections are purely on the basis of cost and painting effort.  

It is definitely much harder, although fighting in a disciplined formation also takes training. There is a very good reason why the spear is the core weapon for melee combat for much of history. It's a bit safer to use and requires less training to reach competency. It's ideal for fighting in formation as the formation helps mitigate some of the spear's weaknesses. It's also just a better weapon overall in battlefield situations (and thus even highly trained elites still used spears in many historical militaries).

Even when you get down to a weapon like a sword there are major differences in training approach. A good example is the Itto ryu, one of the most famous classical Japanese sword arts. While I must give the caveat that I am not trained in the Itto-ryu, my understanding is that the core philosophy of the school resolves around a very aggressive posture and committing fully to a single decisive attack. This approach is very effective at a relatively low level of training, but perhaps less effective at highly advanced levels. It's no coincidence that the WWII era Japanese military drew heavily from the Itto-ryu when training soldiers in sword use. In comparison there are several styles contemporary to the Itto-ryu which are much more invested in disrupting the opponent's timing and/or using a more neutral stance of attack, defense, and counter-attack (examples include the Niten Ichi-ryu and the various schools that developed from the Kage-ryu)

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43 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

On topic of the Rumour Engine, this one has me the most excited since our Mega Gargant teases!! It could very well end up being a part of the Mega Gargant kit, the Kraken Eater has a Sharks jaw bone around his neck, perhaps this is more of the same? Extra bit for the Gargants box!!

Or just as exciting is either a Terrain piece or new model for Bonesplitterz or Ironjawz!!

Why can’t be a mega pet for the mega gargants? We have colossal squig already so we can have something else for the Gargants or a non-FW colossal squig! 😂 

I was also thinking about battleforces and I reckon Ossiarch will get one as historically the new army got one the year after their release like Nighthaunt and Idoneth. Lumineth is too early, it will be next year.

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7 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

There is currently no real evidence that any army is going to be abandoned. Some have stretched the fact that Cities of Sigmar have not gotten the Warcry treatment as evidence that they are going to go, but I find this to be super uncompelling. For one, the two systems are separate. More importantly there are just a stupid number of warscrolls in Cities and it would take a lot of resources for GW to develop the faction for Warcry. Cities also makes relatively little sense in the context of the Warcry setting. TBH if any faction is a bad enough fit to get left out of Warcry it's Cities.

My opinion is that they didn’t get the Warcry treatment because down the line there will be multiple specialised warbands that eventually can be used in Cities of Sigmar. A bit like Khainites will be the first specialised unit of DoK. Only Cities has so many directions they can go they didn’t get the basic one.

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21 minutes ago, Nos said:

I agree with all of this but it's rather missing my point about them being elite. I never had an issue with their absence of armour etc for the reasons you state.

But this style of fighting you mention is precisley that-elite.

...

Yet in AOS the DOK are most effective  in the sort of numbers you expect of skaven and goblins while apparently all whirling around in confined spaces like helicopters.

...

Simultaneously in a blood frenzy which allows them to ward off pain and renders them insensible while also being somehow conscious enough to maintain the discipline and precision and clarity of martial thought and application  exhibited by the greatest of Samurai. Sure, why not.

I was responding much more to @PJetski than to you, for what it's worth!

Your problem with elite units is honestly a pretty broad problem with AOS in general and not just specifically DoK. Points costs have been driven down to the point where you can easily put 100-150 "elite" models on the board if you really want to in many factions. The limiting factor for most players is not points cost but practicality. You don't see the 200-300 model true horde armies (even though those builds might actually be quite good) because you don't want to paint that many, you don't want to lug that many around, it's hard to fit that many in your deployment zone, and it takes way too long to move everything (especially under tournament time constraints).

So instead you see most players sticking to 50-100 models with maybe 150 at the very top end.

As a result, your 70-90 Witch Aelf builds look like a horde army. But a real Skaven or Goblin horde would probably put 200-300 models on the table... it's just that nobody actually does that (except maybe @Skreech Verminking, you absolute mad lad).

To me the problem is less about DoK and more about the overall point scaling in AOS.

With respect to your other points: it's not necessarily true that a high agility, short range fighting style would only work in a spread out "warrior" type formation. You can do a lot with precision and agility even in confined spaces. But I'll 100% agree that it doesn't really make sense given the frenzied, berserker slant to the fluff which certainly does match a warrior culture military much more strongly.

It's possible that their frenzy blocks their pain receptors without interfering with combat-relevant sensory perception, but I haven't read the fluff closely enough to know if that scans or not.

 

______________________________

 

@alghero81 that would be amazing.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

200-300 models on the table... it's just that nobody actually does that (except maybe @Skreech Verminking, you absolute mad lad).

I must be, considering my next list that I’m using has less then 200models

Edited by Skreech Verminking
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17 hours ago, badnewsbeers said:

Which armies are the next to be abandoned do we think?

Legion of azgorh 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I was responding much more to @PJetski than to you, for what it's worth!

Your problem with elite units is honestly a pretty broad problem with AOS in general and not just specifically DoK. Points costs have been driven down to the point where you can easily put 100-150 "elite" models on the board if you really want to in many factions. The limiting factor for most players is not points cost but practicality. You don't see the 200-300 model true horde armies (even though those builds might actually be quite good) because you don't want to paint that many, you don't want to lug that many around, it's hard to fit that many in your deployment zone, and it takes way too long to move everything (especially under tournament time constraints).

So instead you see most players sticking to 50-100 models with maybe 150 at the very top end.

As a result, your 70-90 Witch Aelf builds look like a horde army. But a real Skaven or Goblin horde would probably put 200-300 models on the table... it's just that nobody actually does that (except maybe @Skreech Verminking, you absolute mad lad).

To me the problem is less about DoK and more about the overall point scaling in AOS.

With respect to your other points: it's not necessarily true that a high agility, short range fighting style would only work in a spread out "warrior" type formation. You can do a lot with precision and agility even in confined spaces. But I'll 100% agree that it doesn't really make sense given the frenzied, berserker slant to the fluff which certainly does match a warrior culture military much more strongly.

It's possible that their frenzy blocks their pain receptors without interfering with combat-relevant sensory perception, but I haven't read the fluff closely enough to know if that scans or not.

 

______________________________

 

@alghero81 that would be amazing.

Very thoughtful and well worded reply, thank you.

It's quite sad as you say re the model count thing. One of the things I and I think most Warhammer players loved most was the spectacle of a regiment with all its character and panoply of war.

I think AOS was very clever in going the other way by allowing a regiment to be an equally characterful grouping of a just a few,  more heroic individuals, and making the spectacle and variety be about the army as a whole for basically the same investment required of two warhammer  regiments. Much like early Warhammer in fact. A glorious stew of multiple aspects of an army and its culture. It also meant that the horde faction looked even more so.

But increasingly it's just become Warhammer with round bases in respect to troop numbers and units of 30 which was rare even in Warhammer before 8th edition are pretty much standard in AOS.

Except with the added nonsense that while the rules favour large numbers in that one aspect they also still treat models within them as individuals as well, so you have these massive formations but they dont have flanks or weight and are stretched out in stupid 60 inch conga chains and the like.  Or conversely, you have hordes of 60 skeletons being impeded by one bird etc. 

Edited by Nos
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1 hour ago, EccentricCircle said:

I don't think fyreslayers have had a battleforce have they? Certainly not in the last three or so years that I can (semi) clearly remember.

Wait... why are we speculating about christmas battleforce boxes during a heat wave in August! That's just wrong folks.

So went back in time and gathered the battleforces released, in brackets the latest battletome release for that faction:

2019: Stormcast (Jul-18), Nighthaunt (Jul-18), Gloomspite Gitz (Jan-19), Skaven (Feb-19)

2018: Seraphon (Oct-15), Slaves to Darkness (N/A), Daughters of Khaine (Mar-18), Idoneth Deepkin (Apr-18)

2017: Legions of Nagash (N/A), Stormcast Eternals (Feb-17), Tzeentch (Jan-17), Kharadron Overlords (Apr-17)

2016: Khorne (Sep-15), Sylvaneth (Jul-16), Ironjawz (May-16), Stormcast Eternals (Mar-16)

So I was wrong, they can create battleforces for armies that got a release in the first months of the same year (recently GG, DoK, IDK). Usually there is a battletome in the same year of just before (with some exceptions), but nothing of this gives us a hint as 19 battletomes were published between Q1 2018 and Q2 2019. I still believe Lumineth and SoB are too close to the end of the year to get a box, even considering the delay Lumineth would not have been fully released before May probably. And SoB even later.

My money goes on Ossiarch and Ogors.

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1 hour ago, alghero81 said:

Why can’t be a mega pet for the mega gargants? We have colossal squig already so we can have something else for the Gargants or a non-FW colossal squig! 😂 

I was also thinking about battleforces and I reckon Ossiarch will get one as historically the new army got one the year after their release like Nighthaunt and Idoneth. Lumineth is too early, it will be next year.

A Mega Gargants pet would probably be some kind of immense Hound. Gargants are quite similar to Humans but well...Gargantuan, so one would think mans best friend would also be a Gargants.

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

image.png.1848b57e9dd009e0713220c94e30ae73.pngGordrak‘s God-Beast-Battering-Ram?

This is a very good idea.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Nos said:

But increasingly it's just become Warhammer with round bases in respect to troop numbers and units of 30 which was rare even in Warhammer before 8th edition are pretty much standard in AOS.

Except with the added nonsense that while the rules favour large numbers in that one aspect they also still treat models within them as individuals as well, so you have these massive formations but they dont have flanks or weight and are stretched out in stupid 60 inch conga chains and the like.  Or conversely, you have horses of 60 skeletons being impeded by one bird etc. 

Hear, hear! Conga lines are unthematic and (I think) the rules should provide guardrails that don’t encourage this as the strategic play.


Big unit blobs are likely also the bane of painters who want to play. Painting the same dude 30x2 times is pretty boring, unless you are really into the meditation thing or “lower the bar.” It doesn’t matter if you are a pro painter or new to it, it’s extremely tiring painting the same model to the best of your abilities over and over again to the same level. It is unfortunate that many battalions are so restrictive around unit choices and encourage spamming blocks of the same thing. 

I would love to see:

  • More viable unit choices within factions 
  • More flexible battalions
  • Less incentive for giant blobs of units across the board. Sure, allow it, even encourage it for select factions, but maybe not for 90% of them
  • Rules that don’t lead to the evolution of conga lines in play
     
Edited by Ggom
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My very random predictions for battleforces:

OBR, Slaanesh, Fyreslayers, Mawtribes and a dark horse candidate of Cities of Sigmar.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

My very random predictions for battleforces:

OBR, Slaanesh, Fyreslayers, Mawtribes and a dark horse candidate of Cities of Sigmar.

I would be happy for literally any of those choices. 

I would love it if the battleforces were able to provide the option to help build something with greater unit diversity than what is available in the start collecting sets. So I think a Mawtribes box focusing on Gutbusters or a Cities box focusing on Freeguild, Wanderers or Ironweld would be all be really cool options.

Edited by Neverchosen

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9 hours ago, Ggom said:

Hear, hear! Conga lines are unthematic and (I think) the rules should provide guardrails that don’t encourage this as the strategic play.

They already have done this with the introduction of “wholly within” buffs/auras/command abilities though. Whenever a new book comes out, largely all the rules are updated to a longer range by wholly within instead of just within. 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Kasper said:

They already have done this with the introduction of “wholly within” buffs/auras/command abilities though. Whenever a new book comes out, largely all the rules are updated to a longer range by wholly within instead of just within. 

With all those insane buffs some armies, have a congaline of 40 meathsields, is sometimes needed to keep the rest of the army save.

charging witch elves or buffed ardboy’z will literally kill over a hundred models in a single turn if you let them do that.

Edited by Skreech Verminking

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