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12 minutes ago, Kasper said:

How is it different for Death? Every Death army is Nagashs puppets. I was really disapponted that OBR were yet again his toys, and was hoping for something ala Tomb Kings (not exactly them, Im not a TK fan) that were undead, but their own thing and had nothing to do with Nagash. Feels lame imo they are all one big happy family, and for someone not playing Death, they all feel the same.

I would be down for more rebellious Death armies.  Flesh Eater Courts only barely fills that niche.  We need a full scheming Soulblight army or something.

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I think we might see more of this if/when GW updates the Vampires. Even in the Old World they were one of the groups that directly (as much as they could) opposed Nagash's control. Plus GW's vampires have always loved plotting and scheming. It's an army I very much expect to see GW focus on with their own full release at some point in the future. 

 

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People want to strip away what makes Death unique, the whole point of it is that it's the extreme end of order, the dark mirror of it. Order is the place where you get all the weird factions that want to do their own thing and self-determinate. Self-determination is the antithesis of death, Nagash wants to strip it away, it's why he doesn't care if his Mortarch's plot because he knows them in ways they can't even comprehend. He can stop all their plots with a glance or a word.   

The FEC that want nothing to do with Nagash don't confront him they run away, because if he catches them that's the end. 

Nagash wants to stop mortals being mortals, that's why Chaos see him as a threat. 

Edited by shinros
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I feel like GW tested the waters on a Gargant army with the skirmish box sets that provided 2 gargants at a big discount (practically 2 for the price of 1 IIRC) and the associated battalion in Godbeasts. My anecdotal observation was that they didn't sell that well. I've often wondered whether we would get a Gargant army if they did sell really well.

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2 hours ago, shinros said:

People want to strip away what makes Death unique, the whole point of it is that it's the extreme end of order, the dark mirror of it. Order is the place where you get all the weird factions that want to do their own thing and self-determinate. Self-determination is the antithesis of death, Nagash wants to strip it away, it's why he doesn't care if his Mortarch's plot because he knows them in ways they can't even comprehend. He can stop all their plots with a glance or a word.   

The FEC that want nothing to do with Nagash don't confront him they run away, because if he catches them that's the end. 

Nagash wants to stop mortals being mortals, that's why Chaos see him as a threat. 

Well put. That all-encompassing totalitarianism of Nagash is the thematic thing about Death as a bunch of factions. From Soul Wars:

Quote

‘Nagash yearns for order. Only when the cosmos is united under a singular consciousness, with every spirit and body bent towards the directives of that consciousness, will he be satisfied. Only when all things know their proper place, will he be content.’

‘All are one in Nagash,’ the women intoned, as they worked.

‘Nagash is all.’

Pharus stared at them. ‘But I still think… I still have a will. A mind.’

‘Whose mind? Whose will? Nagash is vast and contains multitudes.’ Arkhan turned. ‘We are all a part of him, and he acts through us.’

That being said I do think the tension of having some Death factions or elements which complicate that is worthwhile and interesting. Following from that quote, it becomes a deliberately ambiguous issue as to how much Arkhan is his own person and how much he is Nagash's image of Arkhan. When he seems to steer his king in a certain direction through cunning and advice, is that Nagash thinking through something through him, or Arkhan contributing to a larger gestalt and exerting some influence? That's good tension!

That's on the individual level but there's much that can be done with it on a faction level. The FEC are a mix of those who worship Nagash and those who try to avoid him but at best they're fickle. They inevitably serve Nagash's will, particularly if he seizes control of them, but they have personalities, they can't always be relied on, they don't always get on with other Death factions, if Nagash isn't paying them direct attention they do go off and have their own interests... That's all possibility, that's all stuff that can be worked with and angles that can deliver fascinating background. 

Same with the Ossiarchs, specifically the Crematorians. Loyal, disciplined, but filled with a growing horror at how they're being used and conscious enough to feel a glimmer of hope when they recognise that Nagash's power isn't absolute following the Necroquake and they might, might be able to defy him, just a little. We don't actually need closure there, we don't need a sudden new faction of anti-Nagash undead because that gap, that interesting tension is enough to do a huge amount with, without undercutting that core Death theme.

If whatever new Death faction has something like that wiggle room - and by golly if they do Zombie Pirates/Dreadfleet/Wraithfleet they'll almost certainly have enough pirate-y personality to have a contentious relationship with Nagash - then it'll deliver something interesting. It also lets Nagash go even more Saturday morning cartoon villain as he radiates cold fury at his unreliable, scheming underlings.😀

Edited by sandlemad
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6 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

@Kasper

IIRC there are some Nighthaunt that are not bound by or follow Nagash. 

I think I recall reading that in the tome... 🤔 

Lots of potential there if so. 

Nah, they all got bound by Olynder. With some lingering about with the various legions. The Mortarch of Grief did a musical number to draw the nighthaunt across the realms to her. She then organised them into a proper army. 

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1 hour ago, Warboss Gorbolg said:

I feel like GW tested the waters on a Gargant army with the skirmish box sets that provided 2 gargants at a big discount (practically 2 for the price of 1 IIRC) and the associated battalion in Godbeasts. My anecdotal observation was that they didn't sell that well. I've often wondered whether we would get a Gargant army if they did sell really well.

But they all sold so I'm not sure how they didn't sell well.

At the end of the day if a model is good people will buy it. Yes are those who will only buy the most powerful and optimal units but there are also painters, collectors, narrative and open gamers who will go for rule of cool.

If they make a giant faction that looks amazing, it will sell.

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1 hour ago, sandlemad said:

Well put. That all-encompassing totalitarianism of Nagash is the thematic thing about Death as a bunch of factions. From Soul Wars:

That being said I do think the tension of having some Death factions or elements which complicate that is worthwhile and interesting. Following from that quote, it becomes a deliberately ambiguous issue as to how much Arkhan is his own person and how much he is Nagash's image of Arkhan. When he seems to steer his king in a certain direction through cunning and advice, is that Nagash thinking through something through him, or Arkhan contributing to a larger gestalt and exerting some influence? That's good tension!

That's on the individual level but there's much that can be done with it on a faction level. The FEC are a mix of those who worship Nagash and those who try to avoid him but at best they're fickle. They inevitably serve Nagash's will, particularly if he seizes control of them, but they have personalities, they can't always be relied on, they don't always get on with other Death factions, if Nagash isn't paying them direct attention they do go off and have their own interests... That's all possibility, that's all stuff that can be worked with and angles that can deliver fascinating background. 

Same with the Ossiarchs, specifically the Crematorians. Loyal, disciplined, but filled with a growing horror at how they're being used and conscious enough to feel a glimmer of hope when they recognise that Nagash's power isn't absolute following the Necroquake and they might, might be able to defy him, just a little. We don't actually need closure there, we don't need a sudden new faction of anti-Nagash undead because that gap, that interesting tension is enough to do a huge amount with, without undercutting that core Death theme.

If whatever new Death faction has something like that wiggle room - and by golly if they do Zombie Pirates/Dreadfleet/Wraithfleet they'll almost certainly have enough pirate-y personality to have a contentious relationship with Nagash - then it'll deliver something interesting. It also lets Nagash go even more Saturday morning cartoon villain as he radiates cold fury at his unreliable, scheming underlings.😀

I was just thinking the other day about how much I miss the WFB Undead with Nagash as a dormant presence in the background of a faction of self-interested schemers who've not realised they're stuck in a holding pattern. Still, have enjoyed Mannfred's fall from grace/recharacterisation from the biggest, baddest thing that hasn't happened to the Empire yet to Starscream with daddy issues.

Nagash obviously benefits (or seems to think he benefits) from giving Mannfred and Neferata a degree of/the illusion of agency, so a full fleshed out vampire/Soulblight faction could have a wonderful pitiful feel, made up of a bunch of aspiring Machiavellis, each secretly plotting to bend the mortal realms to their own will, never realising that the only reason they're compelled to think like that is because Nagash thinks it'll keep the other grand alliances second guessing.

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Also don't forget that Nagash might have full control, but its not all the time. Even Ossiarchs have their own minds and motivations. Nagash even gave their general a specific weapon that would, twist his mind a bit so that he was easier to control and even more driven toward eradication of the living. I think the key is that whilst Nagash can impose his will, he's still not an omnipotent god. He's got limits and that's before we get to his damaged mental state. There's ample room in there for rebellions and uprisings even if they can only happen on the fringes of his control.

 

Plus the other death leaders can't ignore the fact that Nagash can't control the Flesheaters. Even though the might be utterly insane this suggests that there are ways to resist Nagash's will - ample reason to catch a few and experiment on them. See if the effect can be replicated without the madness. 

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10 hours ago, King Under the Mountain said:

I think this is the problem with tieing the whole Grand Alliance to the Orc god(s) is that it really limits the scope of what can be in a Destruction army imo.  The only army I reasonably think of is the much talked about "Giant" army.  

Of course GW has surprised me in the past so hopefully they have something good in the works for Destruction.

To even the numbers a bit in the meantime, I would consider moving unaligned (i.e. "brown") Beasts across to Destruction.

Make it a narrative thing, where they get forsaken by the Chaos gods and go full bestial destruction, rather than a retcon.

This will make Beasts more relevant as a fish in a smaller pond, and both serve to decrease the Chaos factions and increase the Destruction ones.

Tzaangor, and any future god-aligned Beasts, would remain in Chaos, of course.

Edited by Kyriakin
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Can’t understand why we can’t enjoy a death army even if Nagash is behind it. He can’t be everywhere and that’s why he has Mortarchs. Lore wise both Neferata and Mannfred have plenty of stories where Nagash is just a background figure. 
Personally I’m curious to see what Katakros obtained in Eightpoints. 
In the lore there’s also mention of other death gods. We know Nagash hunted and assimilated most of them but we don’t know if all, in a malign portent story one was still hidden from Nagash and Shysh is immense so there’s always space for another death god assuming Nagash will hold the reins (soon or later he’ll need to deflate or he will be too powerful for the Order forces).

Regarding Destruction there’s so much they can play with the theme of destruction without repeating existing races. For example insectoid armies eating anything they meet. A mix between grots and ogors but controlled by a central nexus, destroyed which, they lose control. Plenty of options also expanding the existing subfactions like the Spiderfang and whatever Rippa came from.

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3 hours ago, alghero81 said:

Regarding Destruction there’s so much they can play with the theme of destruction without repeating existing races. For example insectoid armies eating anything they meet. A mix between grots and ogors but controlled by a central nexus, destroyed which, they lose control. Plenty of options also expanding the existing subfactions like the Spiderfang and whatever Rippa came from.

Thats called Tyranids and if they had a hive mind/swarm mentality then what would be the end of the Mortal Realms lol

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The Destruction factions are divided in Crushing factions (Orruks and Ogors) and Cunning factions (Grots).

 

I think the next faction need to be a Cunning factions. I hope It will be the Fimir faction, using the mist to avoid the enemy and improving ther movement.

I LOVE the Greenskinz (Orruks and Grot), but we need to expand the races.

 

Edit: I think that Chaos Dwarf was an error to be included in the  Chaos Pantheon, it had been better if they had evolutioned to Fire Dwarfs and they'll be included in the Destruction faction with the hobgoblins, but GW was a bit coward with them...

Edited by Nezzhil
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6 hours ago, Overread said:

Plus the other death leaders can't ignore the fact that Nagash can't control the Flesheaters. Even though the might be utterly insane this suggests that there are ways to resist Nagash's will - ample reason to catch a few and experiment on them. See if the effect can be replicated without the madness. 

My issue is that Nagash is just way too powerful in the lore. This leaves very little room for fun and rebels within the faction. As stated previously, I had hoped that OBR was their own thing and wouldn't care about Nagash, maybe even wanting to punch him in the face. I would love for some kind of necroquakeV2 where he messes up and a certain amount of power is gone. Leaving the other stuff an option.

That or Gordrakk gets souped up sometime by relics and goes about to slap him silly. (Why GW did you have to mess up your chance with the Orruk Warclans tome? You had the chance of making him great again!)

Anyways, the point is - If almost all Death factions are the same, I don't see why the way the Destruction faction is built is in any way limiting GW from designing new armies. If they can pull OBR out of nowhere, which is basically just more skellys when we already have plently, surely they can make more brute armies. Gorkamorka isn't a front figure at all unlike Nagash. All the Destruction factions are quite different, even if they worship the same dude(s). Hell, even Bonesplitterz and Ironjawz are thematically very different in nature.  

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6 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

To even the numbers a bit in the meantime, I would consider moving unaligned (i.e. "brown") Beasts across to Destruction.

Make it a narrative thing, where they get forsaken by the Chaos gods and go full bestial destruction, rather than a retcon.

This will make Beasts more relevant as a fish in a smaller pond, and both serve to decrease the Chaos factions and increase the Destruction ones.

Tzaangor, and any future god-aligned Beasts, would remain in Chaos, of course.

I think Beasts of Chaos fits very well in the Chaos faction from a lore point of view. There's the whole super anti-Order and also mutation thing going on etc.

Suddenly changing the faction to Destruction would also mess them up on the table. Atm they are like spice - No good alone, but great when you sprinkle it on food (other chaos factions). Bullgors and stuff isn't too bad in a Khorne based army. Tzaangors etc. are quite strong. Gors, Ungors and Bestigors are quite strong if taken with Slaanesh. 

They are in dire need of a new book imo and of course it could remove the "need" for the other chaos factions to actually have legs to stand on, but alas I think the lore makes them right at home with the Chaos faction. 

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28 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

Edit: I think that Chaos Dwarf was an error to be included in the  Chaos Pantheon, it had been better if they had evolutioned to Fire Dwarfs and they'll be included in the Destruction faction with the hobgoblins, but GW was a bit coward with them...

If you rename Chaos dwarf they can be easily included under order banner. Destruction more focused on... destruction then creating. 

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12 hours ago, Carnelian said:

The reports I saw (pic attached) were pretty clear that nothing is coming soon

Just as a note, those comments are combined from the AoS seminar and Specialist Games seminar from the NY Open Day last weekend.  Before the AoS one started it was made very clear to not ask for information on future reveals, it was also a Q&A format so if the question wasn't asked it won't have been given an answer.  In short, just because it's not on that report, doesn't mean it's not happening 😉

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4 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Thats called Tyranids and if they had a hive mind/swarm mentality then what would be the end of the Mortal Realms lol

Yeah something like that but reimagined in the mortal realms. They could have been an underground race living in Ghur and the necroquake stirred them and now they are out on the prowl. I don’t see why we need to have Gorkamorka as god of every destruction race, although so far that’s what is mentioned in the description of destruction races in the core book. Easily fixed in a new Battletome...

Edited by alghero81
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1 hour ago, alghero81 said:

Yeah something like that but reimagined in the mortal realms. They could have been an underground race living in Ghur and the necroquake stirred them and now they are out on the prowl. I don’t see why we need to have Gorkamorka as god of every destruction race, although so far that’s what is mentioned in the description of destruction races in the core book. Easily fixed in a new Battletome...

That sounds awesome!!! 

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Couldn't Gorkamorka just be the Khorne of smashing stuff???

 

What I mean by that is does Gorkamorka really care how or why the place gets smashed into little bits, as long as it does. As for his followers, if you're big and smash things they probably going to be a big fan of yours.

 

I think in the sort of greater, meta narrative Destruction should be a sort of entropic force that serves as a way to mediate the other 3 forces in the setting.  As one gets more powerful and dominates the others, the forces of Destruction show up, wreck stuff and re-level the battlefield.

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1 hour ago, alghero81 said:

Yeah something like that but reimagined in the mortal realms. They could have been an underground race living in Ghur and the necroquake stirred them and now they are out on the prowl. I don’t see why we need to have Gorkamorka as god of every destruction race, although so far that’s what is mentioned in the description of destruction races in the core book. Easily fixed in a new Battletome...

True that could work. And if they operated like a swarm of bugs that worked on an instinctual level then they wouldnt need to worship any god at all...that would be a first 

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