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16 minutes ago, madmac said:

I'm also starting to wonder, given that we've seen no unit squatting Post-CoS, if GW thought the backlash from that was bad enough to make them a bit more reserved about removing old models without replacement.

CoS was about condensing several factions into one and removing duplicates of unit types.  It was a fairly unique situation that required a cull not really necessary for other Battletomes.  Going forward, it will probably be mostly a case of a gradual replacement of new for old as they retire old sculpts ( At least, that's what I hope ).

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19 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

The problem for me is not the mono pose design (ETB and all is great thing), it's the fact they'll keep the old kits in the range

Imagine if they kept the old Chaos Space Marines squad kits alongside the new ones from Shadowspear ?

It's the same problem here. 😡

Really, there is more and more a general range disparity in both 40k and AOS that does not look good at all on the battlefield. 

I hope it will be solved until The Old World arrives. 

Hmm, they actually kind of did do that for a while. Way back in 2012 Dark Vengeance had a set of beautiful chaos space marines. Amazing sculpts, really captured what chaos marines should look like. They kept the old marines around until they resculpted them this year. Little different because they called them chosen, but still, such a blatant difference in quality between the two and it stuck for almost a decade.

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24 minutes ago, madmac said:

It's a bit more complicated than that, the old Chaos Warrior/Knight kits have weapon options and such that the SC box doesn't.  Which is probably the main reason they didn't discontinue the old kits if there isn't a full multipart replacement in the wings.

Probably does mean that the STD release isn't going to continue into January either way. The new Warcry monsters they previewed will probably have rules in the tome but get released under the Warcry label initially.

I'm also starting to wonder, given that we've seen no unit squatting Post-CoS, if GW thought the backlash from that was bad enough to make them a bit more reserved about removing old models without replacement.

My only complaint is precisely there isn't any "replacement in the wings". Really bad decision.

32 minutes ago, Dawnmane said:

I’m sorry if I’m Draxing here, but where is that model previewed?

In the picture posted by Charleston, right to the Chaos Lord, between the rocks and the blond Maraudeur Girl.

 

Edited by HorticulusTGA
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2 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Hmm, they actually kind of did do that for a while. Way back in 2012 Dark Vengeance had a set of beautiful chaos space marines. Amazing sculpts, really captured what chaos marines should look like. They kept the old marines around until they resculpted them this year. Little different because they called them chosen, but still, such a blatant difference in quality between the two and it stuck for almost a decade.

Well, yes. And that was bad, but at least they had the "Chosen" excuses, also their rules reflected that. 

We have none of it here, and the sad example of Shadowspear CSM next to new multipart CSM. 

By the same picture above we can see the old ass resin Chosen will also stay. A pity, really.

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11 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

CoS was about condensing several factions into one and removing duplicates of unit types.  It was a fairly unique situation that required a cull not really necessary for other Battletomes.  Going forward, it will probably be mostly a case of a gradual replacement of new for old as they retire old sculpts ( At least, that's what I hope ).

The thing is, GW was steadily removing models the first half of the year. Gloomspite was accompanied by the generic Orc/Gobbo purge, Skaven and Slaanesh both lost some models, people were bracing for more finecast models to be cut before CoS was even announced. Then the Orruk/Ogor books came out without losing a single model, and from the looks of things same for STD. It's a bit of an odd swerve even counting CoS as a unique case.

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7 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Well, yes. And that was bad, but at least they had the "Chosen" excuses, also their rules reflected that. 

We have none of it here, and the sad example of Shadowspear CSM next to new multipart CSM. 

By the same picture above we can see the old ass resin Chosen will also stay. A pity, really.

Yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not fully without precedent and we might be stuck this way for quite a while until they're ready to fully refresh the line. Not the end of the world but disappointing for sure. 

Hopefully the rules get a proper rework at least. I've been wanting to pick up some S2D for a while but I've been paralyzed by all the different choices they might make on release. 

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1 minute ago, Grimrock said:

Yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not fully without precedent and we might be stuck this way for quite a while until they're ready to fully refresh the line. Not the end of the world but disappointing for sure. 

Hopefully the rules get a proper rework at least. I've been wanting to pick up some S2D for a while but I've been paralyzed by all the different choices they might make on release. 

Absolutely. I'm confident for the rules. 

The Endless Spells are good enough, and I still have a Chaos Dreeadhold Helfort to finish alongside Archaon and 6 Varanguard. 

I think I'll get a SC, the Spire Tyrants, the spells and I'll have enough to get a good looking up-to-date starting force. But I really wanted to go all out and buy like 3 boxes of warriors :P

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59 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Well, yes. And that was bad, but at least they had the "Chosen" excuses, also their rules reflected that. 

We have none of it here, and the sad example of Shadowspear CSM next to new multipart CSM. 

By the same picture above we can see the old ass resin Chosen will also stay. A pity, really.

Maybe they want to keep the mold anyway, because it fits their plans for the Old World, and why not have a chance of getting some extra sales?

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35 minutes ago, Eldarain said:

With the Marines/CSM/Sisters and now S2D is it possible Start Collecting sets are going to become self contained sculpts instead of discount bundles of existing kits?

That would be an interesting development for sure. Its really surprising to start seeing Start Collecting sets are release of a new range, rather than a year or so later, but if they do take it in that direction then it could be a very useful "core" product. It feels like some of the start collecting sets almost invalidate the sets with the kits they include. I can't see why anyone would want to buy a single zombie dragon for example, unless they were already swimming in ghouls. Having unique models in the sets could be a good way to make them complementary to the rest of the range, rather than just another way to buy it. It would be a shame to lose that as a way of getting discounts going forwards though.

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Keeping old Chosen (when they could easily make new ones by ripping off their own Varanguard kit, GW is into copy/paste these days anyways) and not doing a new multipart kit for Warriors (like they (and I before them) said - the most iconic Warhammer Fantasy unit) seems kinda dumb to me to be honest. But whatever, I'm fine with it as these will be good enough for conversions. Still a dubious move when this army sold me more than a few others combined back in WHFB days and would now sell more than fringe group factions like Fyreslayers or Idoneth Deepkin.... I don't get it but perhaps they know something we don't or maybe most heavily armored Chaos warrior fans went on to collect Khorne and Nurgle and won't bother switching now. There's gotta be some reason as they're not exactly allergic to money.

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6 minutes ago, Jymmy said:

So they can force people to buy the multicomponent boxes if they want all the options. Make perfect sense.

It would take them back to being specifically "start" collecting sets, rather than "continue" collecting.  You're right, it does make sense.  Your first thing for a new army would be 1-2 SC boxes, but beyond that they'd prefer you buy model kits one at a time.

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I guess I am hoping the community article is poorly worded? But I think if they were coming out with a multi-part version, they would have said that also.  So that sort of stinks.

Puts a damper on the release to be honest.  Although I am pumped about the SC box, I was hoping to finally update all the very very old warrior models.

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49 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Keeping old Chosen (when they could easily make new ones by ripping off their own Varanguard kit, GW is into copy/paste these days anyways) and not doing a new multipart kit for Warriors (like they (and I before them) said - the most iconic Warhammer Fantasy unit) seems kinda dumb to me to be honest. But whatever, I'm fine with it as these will be good enough for conversions. Still a dubious move when this army sold me more than a few others combined back in WHFB days and would now sell more than fringe group factions like Fyreslayers or Idoneth Deepkin.... I don't get it but perhaps they know something we don't or maybe most heavily armored Chaos warrior fans went on to collect Khorne and Nurgle and won't bother switching now. There's gotta be some reason as they're not exactly allergic to money.

There are many things we do not know yet. What will happen to the weapon options for knights and warriors? Are we stuck using old warriors for banners and musicians? Will the new lord replace the old? What is the deal with a flail being a weapon option for a lord on foot? Is he on a larger base in today's picture? Will we get more kits in a new year? How will the warcry units mix into the book? What is the cultist keyword? How awesome will Archeon be? How will marks work? Will we get god-aligned battalions? Chosen might remain the same models or not, but aren't they resin? New GW doesn't like resin.

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3 hours ago, madmac said:

The thing is, GW was steadily removing models the first half of the year. Gloomspite was accompanied by the generic Orc/Gobbo purge, Skaven and Slaanesh both lost some models, people were bracing for more finecast models to be cut before CoS was even announced. Then the Orruk/Ogor books came out without losing a single model, and from the looks of things same for STD. It's a bit of an odd swerve even counting CoS as a unique case.

Yea, it was sad to see the Greenskins go (I have quite a few) and the Grots ( though mine are now Gitz), but they were whole factions retired with no book.  As far as I'm aware, the only Skaven models stopped were those only available in Spire of Dawn, which were mixed in with High Aelves.  Not sure why Slaanesh models went, but it seems to me that there are different reasons each time rather than a trend and only as a necessity.  I think GW have been making an effort to keep models where possible, which, despite the fact that I now have many minis consigned to boxes, is a laudable thing.

I suppose the next test for model replacement or removal will be the Slaan.

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So what is actually wrong with the old models? I often see people complain that kits need an update, but often I'm not convinced that they are actually bwd, just that their style isn't the current fashion. Just had a look at knights and warriors, and sure the new kits have more details, but the old kits still have a very ironic look, realised very well. They are nit zombies, or even their marauder allies who look a little derpy. I can see why you'd want as much detail as possible, but in a sense that style of model tends to be monopose, or "duopose", as we see with new ranges like idoneth. The new standard of detal just doesn't lend itself to true multi part troop kits. 

In a sense it feels like we 're getting the best of bith worlds. We have new hyper detailed squads, but still have the more varied kits to make up numbers, add variety and be quick to paint, so that you can lavish details on the new models.

I feel like this is how it used to work when multipart plastic kits first came in. You could focus on the monopose metal models as champions and the frknt rank, and fill out the squad with lower quality plastic soldiers. We've just arrived at the point where it's happening in reverse now.

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52 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

So what is actually wrong with the old models? I often see people complain that kits need an update, but often I'm not convinced that they are actually bwd, just that their style isn't the current fashion. Just had a look at knights and warriors, and sure the new kits have more details, but the old kits still have a very ironic look, realised very well. They are nit zombies, or even their marauder allies who look a little derpy. I can see why you'd want as much detail as possible, but in a sense that style of model tends to be monopose, or "duopose", as we see with new ranges like idoneth. The new standard of detal just doesn't lend itself to true multi part troop kits. 

In a sense it feels like we 're getting the best of bith worlds. We have new hyper detailed squads, but still have the more varied kits to make up numbers, add variety and be quick to paint, so that you can lavish details on the new models.

I feel like this is how it used to work when multipart plastic kits first came in. You could focus on the monopose metal models as champions and the frknt rank, and fill out the squad with lower quality plastic soldiers. We've just arrived at the point where it's happening in reverse now.

Did you look at the actual miniatures and sprews? Because the warriors really don't hold up so well in person. They are really low detail in the parts that aren't immediatly noticably and that, combined with their blocky static pose, means there is very little a modeller can actually do with them.

I remember thinking they held up quite well myself until I help the actually held them in my hards and found they couldn't measure up in any regard even to monopose original starter set liberators.

 

Knights are better, I think they could have easily gotten away with not updating them for quite a few years to come. But now there's the problem that there's new knights and old knights and the two won't really mesh with each other at all, the very different proportions on the mounts alone will see to that.

 

So yeah, I'm not exactly happy they seem to be pulling another Dark Vengeance on us (on on Chaos again as well). Still the SC provides some really nice miniatures at a presumably a very decent price and a new lord choice (always welcome).

I propably would have gotten  far more Warriors with a new Multipart and I might not pull the trigger on the SC right away either, which would have been assured with more incoming next year.

 

Still, I'm confident I could turn out twenty unique warriors and Knights from the SC given time, and that is likely all the Warriors I need for my Slaanesh for a long time, while I've already started on custom Warriors for Tzeentch, though at my current rate they'll be complete in a decade.

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My understanding is that there will be multipart releases of the SC set around March. 
I have no issues with easy to build start collecting sets. Obviously it's a shift in direction from the current SC sets.... Ideally the easy to build ones would be a bit cheaper. Some of the easy to build nighthaunt stuff is significantly cheaper than similar multipart kits, which makes sense. 

This is good from a barrier to entry point of view. I know right now we all look at SC sets and good bundle deals with a discount, but that's not really their intention is it. 
I'd be very, very happy if we got new SC kits for other factions that were new sculpts but cheaper boxes. Even if they're mono-pose. 

It's nice the new warriors come with different head options. It's also not going to be hard to swap their weapons around with some khorne warrior ones or tzeentch/nurgle themed ones. You can make some of the mono-pose minis stretch quite far imo. It does't take much to add a splash of uniqueness. I personally hate having two identical models so I convert almost everything. 

That being said, I don't think the old warriors and knights were that bad. They weren't amazing but they are by far not the worst or oldest models around. Skaven and Seraphon have heaps of stuff that desperately needs more of an update. Skaven got shafted with no new models and we're yet to see what they do for Seraphon but I doubt it will be more than a 2.0 battletome and maybe endless spells/terrain. 
It's interesting they chose these warriors and knights for a refresh despite lots of other kits needing it much more. 
They could have defacto refreshed warriors via the warcry warband, but instead we got  mostly naked barbarians with a helmet and shoulder pads.  

Edited by Inquisitorsz
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Call me pessimistic, but I think that making the things monopose will not diminish its price. People were hoping the same during the transition from metal to plastic and turns out that things are even more expensive after the change. The Slaves SC is not cheaper than other non easy to build ones and I’m not sure if nighthaunt are the best example of cheap easy to build, as chainrasp are expensive as hell.

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3 hours ago, Austin said:

I guess I am hoping the community article is poorly worded? But I think if they were coming out with a multi-part version, they would have said that also.  So that sort of stinks.

Puts a damper on the release to be honest.  Although I am pumped about the SC box, I was hoping to finally update all the very very old warrior models.

I think people could be reading a bit too much into the wording. Is a multi-part kit coming out next month? Almost certainly not. However, I don't think this language is meant to be interpreted that one isn't coming out at all next year. 

If there truly aren't any more new kits coming out for the next few years, that would certainly be disappointing, but at the same time there are so many things that could still use new models, I'd prefer if they did 3 new kits for 10 armies instead of 10 new kits for 3 armies and slowly improve the quality of each army range.

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1 hour ago, Inquisitorsz said:

My understanding is that there will be multipart releases of the SC set around March. 
I have no issues with easy to build start collecting sets. Obviously it's a shift in direction from the current SC sets.... Ideally the easy to build ones would be a bit cheaper. Some of the easy to build nighthaunt stuff is significantly cheaper than similar multipart kits, which makes sense. 

Any source or basis for that "understanding"?

Edited by Nighthaunt Noob
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