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19 hours ago, Still-young said:

They aren’t daemons. They’re Tzeentch Beastmen, i’d class them as mortals. 

I care about their key words only, not what you would like to class them as.

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18 hours ago, michu said:

And @Kurrilino remember that Tzeentch already has plastic mortals -Kairic Acolytes. So your argument is faulty - Tzeentch can't get Slaanesh treatment as it already was updated for AoS with mortals.

Actually this is exactly what i am saying. 1-2 mortal units, 476 demon units.

People who expect more mortals in the Tzeench book will be disappointed because of the Slaneesh treatment.

No new mortal units for us. We better get used to it.

 

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I'm not sure Ogors will definitely be losing all their old resin sculpts, Skaven received a new book and they retained many of their old models. 

Honestly Tzeentch doesn't really need a bunch of new models at the moment, their range is pretty robust. Their issue at the moment is that their book as so many FAQ's and changes (summoning rules, Tzaangor scroll changes). All they really need is a updated book, probably a terrain piece, and endless spells (the magic god should probably have endless spells)

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10 minutes ago, Shearl said:

I'm not sure Ogors will definitely be losing all their old resin sculpts, Skaven received a new book and they retained many of their old models. 

Honestly Tzeentch doesn't really need a bunch of new models at the moment, their range is pretty robust. Their issue at the moment is that their book as so many FAQ's and changes (summoning rules, Tzaangor scroll changes). All they really need is a updated book, probably a terrain piece, and endless spells (the magic god should probably have endless spells)

Difference in the Ogor situation to the skaven, imho, is that the latter had a great deal of variety in their resin/ metal sculpts. Interesting and flavorful choices and sculpts that would make them less interesting if they were removed. Maneaters on the other hand are fairly redundant in their design. They really are just a bit better ogors who wander. Renting their skills out for trinkets and grub.

Sure the have cool, unique sculpts but they are way less interesting then say a weapons team or jezzials (I think those are resin?) Design and profile wise.

I get the frustration of people wanting big releases and large updates for their respective factions, who wouldnt. But perhaps I'm just more of  realist when it comes with what to expect for something like ogors.

I love them. Cant wait for Mawtribes to get some tasty lore perspective, rules and maybe a new butcher... but ogors are niche. They arnt a super popular faction, who dont have a foot in the grande power struggle, so for me to expect a bloodhound, stormcast or nighthaunt level release just wouldnt be practical. I'd be ecstatic with this rumored update, and not expect anything more for years xD.

 

Also. I do disagree with this general meloncohly attitude that seems to be chasing chaos players lately.

Once a baseline tzeench update with spells and terrain, combined with the long awaited slaves/everchosen update comes, chaos will have the most complete... adapatable... fleshed out alliances in the entire game. Plus warcry for even more mortal ideas and bits to play with.

I of course feel for you STD brothers out there. It sucks to be in such a disheveled place. I didnt even know if ogors would exist anymore up to a few weeks ago haha. 

Archeon is prime baddie and resident sigmar nut kicker after all. If anything I'd wager they have an update planned with him as the focus once again...

 

... followed by destruction of course, to drop kick him into the audience.

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2 hours ago, Shankelton said:

... followed by destruction of course, to drop kick him into the audience.

on "Stop the pigeon" tune

Kick da Archaon, kick da Archaon,

Smash him, bash him, slash him, krump him,

show him propa 

WAAAAGH!

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10 hours ago, Overread said:

Aye but fun or competitive both groups want armies that will last beyond a year or two. So armies without any battletome  - ergo models - are always a higher risk investment when it comes to AoS.

I know, saying this is heresey...but you don't have to use your stuff strictly for GW systems. And the one good thing about the internet is, that it never forgets - as long as there was an existing warscroll for it, you'll find it in the interwebs too.

About the risk, this is actually fairly predictable from my point of view - or am I the only one who noticed the direction change of the fantasy setting? You can expect basically EVERTHING that isn't of the four original AoS models armies (Stormcast, Khorne, Ironjawz, Fyreslayers) to disappear at some time. All that is "old world" or it's aesthetic will be sorted out sooner or later. Really nothing suprising here.

The newer armies on the other hand will persist (i.e. Kharadron) to support the flair of the ultrahigh fantasy setting of AoS.

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Do you think there's a chance that Archaon will become a Chaos god himself?

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29 minutes ago, DinoTitanedition said:

I know, saying this is heresey...but you don't have to use your stuff strictly for GW systems. And the one good thing about the internet is, that it never forgets - as long as there was an existing warscroll for it, you'll find it in the interwebs too.

About the risk, this is actually fairly predictable from my point of view - or am I the only one who noticed the direction change of the fantasy setting? You can expect basically EVERTHING that isn't of the four original AoS models armies (Stormcast, Khorne, Ironjawz, Fyreslayers) to disappear at some time. All that is "old world" or it's aesthetic will be sorted out sooner or later. Really nothing suprising here.

The newer armies on the other hand will persist (i.e. Kharadron) to support the flair of the ultrahigh fantasy setting of AoS.

When it's only for the models, GW isn't worth the price, you pay for having more people to compete with. I'd be out about half with other vendors, and their quality is not lagging behind much anymore, and their design can be better.

If GW can't make a setting with Order humans (Stormcast are not humans by any reasonable measure), I am not interested in doing anything with it, however, and will step out. They even manage this in 40k.

If GW starts cutting off factions they have made a battletome for, they'll forever have shown to me how reliable they are, and I'll warn everyone away from them.

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I find it a little suspicious that all of those apparent “leaks” can actually be found posted in this thread as speculation by a number of different people, well before the alleged leak came out. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Raviv said:

Do you think there's a chance that Archaon will become a Chaos god himself? 

Yeah. I think that at some point in the future we will either see a storyline focusing on war between Archaon vs Chaos god(s) or that one of the gods will be weakend in a way and Archaon will take his place (or be the 6th Chaos god). It's either that or pushing him back from the story as carrying on the pattern "and he invaded the mortal realms ones again..." is too boring.

Edited by Aryann

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35 minutes ago, AthlorianStoners said:

I find it a little suspicious that all of those apparent “leaks” can actually be found posted in this thread as speculation by a number of different people, well before the alleged leak came out. 

There's a lot of leaks which are just people making guesses based upon logical conclusions from what they see; others are leaks which self generate. Ergo someone poses a potential idea which gets repeated around a few times and now its no longer an idea its a rumour and then it evolves into a leak. Basically people forget the original source and then it becomes something they've heard etc...

 

Right now we don't get many leaks if any real ones - there's the odd hint here and there, but by and large GW isn't leaking much. They've tightened down a lot! I think they've also got less pressure to leak stuff because why would upper staff risk jobs and pay when the info is coming out from GW anyway; when they are already directly marketing. In the past I think some of the leaks came about because staff could see there was a lack of communication from the top and it was generating bad feeling within the community and fanbase. 

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2 hours ago, Raviv said:

Do you think there's a chance that Archaon will become a Chaos god himself?

An equal yes, as strong as yes. But his whole shtick has been to overthrow all rulers and gods. He’s the ‘some people just want to watch the world burn’ meme. So his whole scheme of becoming the everchosen is to destroy sigmar, the world and every other god and ruler. 

He has a great backstory where he started off as a warrior of Sigmar but he discovers something that changed his destiny. And although you know the end result I would highly recommend googling his lore. Plenty of good lore videos and articles on him. 

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38 minutes ago, Overread said:

There's a lot of leaks which are just people making guesses based upon logical conclusions from what they see; others are leaks which self generate. Ergo someone poses a potential idea which gets repeated around a few times and now its no longer an idea its a rumour and then it evolves into a leak. Basically people forget the original source and then it becomes something they've heard etc...

 

Right now we don't get many leaks if any real ones - there's the odd hint here and there, but by and large GW isn't leaking much. They've tightened down a lot! I think they've also got less pressure to leak stuff because why would upper staff risk jobs and pay when the info is coming out from GW anyway; when they are already directly marketing. In the past I think some of the leaks came about because staff could see there was a lack of communication from the top and it was generating bad feeling within the community and fanbase. 

Well, the communication still is less than stellar for things they don't want to talk about. And internally, as well. 

This is of course about the culling. ("handful models" anounced two weeks before the  fact, 27 sets affected, including ones that received a mercenary function the month before (which should have been caught by internal communication, can't believe they only made the list for culling after the final edit of GHB2019))

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Aryann said:

Yeah. I think that at some point in the future we will either see a storyline focusing on war between Archaon vs Chaos god(s) or that one of the gods will be weakend in a way and Archaon will take his place (or be the 6th Chaos god). It's either that or pushing him back from the story as carrying on the pattern "and he invaded the mortal realms ones again..." is too boring.

Imo he should just die and be brought back by the gods as a tormented pitiful patchwork of all daemons, because that‘s what would suit him.

Edited by JackStreicher
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32 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Imo he should just die and be brought back by the gods as a tormented pitiful patchwork of all daemons, because that‘s what would suit him.

You are cold man. Too cold. 

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3 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

When it's only for the models, GW isn't worth the price, you pay for having more people to compete with.

It's great that you have this very personal, subjective view, only regarding your personal perception of things. I again read "competition" in there. Qualitywise...sorry to say, but the are pretty much the company with the best quality compared to the amount of miniatures they throw on the market. Or do you compare them to some small company, producing...how much? A couple of hundred miniatures? Maybe even a low thousands?

Don't get me wrong, neither am I a fan or someone who dislikes the company. It's an objective observation based on numbers (you know, the thing what some folks look at when they want to be competitively good). Aside of that I usually buy miniatures solely in regards of one factor: what they look like. This is what was the first impulse that triggered my interest when I walked by a miniatures store (Welt der Spiele) many, many years ago and I am 100% sure, that this is the first impulse for EVERYONE who did not have contact with tabletop games before. Saying anything else is like saying "I like your character" to a good looking lady before even really knowing her.

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52 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Well, the communication still is less than stellar for things they don't want to talk about. And internally, as well. 

This is of course about the culling. ("handful models" anounced two weeks before the  fact, 27 sets affected, including ones that received a mercenary function the month before (which should have been caught by internal communication, can't believe they only made the list for culling after the final edit of GHB2019))

Dude you need to stop bringing this up randomly, especially in the rumor thread. 

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3 minutes ago, DinoTitanedition said:

It's great that you have this very personal, subjective view, only regarding your personal perception of things. I again read "competition" in there. Qualitywise...sorry to say, but the are pretty much the company with the best quality compared to the amount of miniatures they throw on the market. Or do you compare them to some small company, producing...how much? A couple of hundred miniatures? Maybe even a low thousands?

Don't get me wrong, neither am I a fan or someone who dislikes the company. It's an objective observation based on numbers (you know, the thing what some folks look at when they want to be competitively good). Aside of that I usually buy miniatures solely in regards of one factor: what they look like. This is what was the first impulse that triggered my interest when I walked by a miniatures store (Welt der Spiele) many, many years ago and I am 100% sure, that this is the first impulse for EVERYONE who did not have contact with tabletop games before. Saying anything else is like saying "I like your character" to a good looking lady before even really knowing her.

I compare them with Warlord miniatures and Northstar (their Frostgrave line), both of these I have. They are about equal in quality, though the Frostgrave females are much more believable. I don't have anything from the Perry or fireforge lines, but the pictures of the new plastic sets are also good.

We're not in the '90's or early 2000's anymore, and fantasy is no longer the choice between ugly plastics for D&D or GW alone.

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7 minutes ago, AthlorianStoners said:

Dude you need to stop bringing this up randomly, especially in the rumor thread. 

Leaving the rumour thread for the moment. It was just a response on how communication improvements from GW was killing rumours.

Which in a way is true, they spread rumours about things they want to say, so people do not talk about things they don't want them to talk about.

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True, heck somewhere around here I've got a thread for alternate sculpts and such and you can get some really oustanding stuff from places like Raging Heroes (though they cost more than most equivalent GW models too). That said on a forum devoted to AoS chances are most are fans of GW and GW models and designs ;)

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1 minute ago, zilberfrid said:

Leaving the rumour thread for the moment. It was just a response on how communication improvements from GW was killing rumours.

Which in a way is true, they spread rumours about things they want to say, so people do not talk about things they don't want them to talk about.

Not quite true, everyone did complain very loudly about the cut units. The thing is most were expecting cuts to happen and also, lets face it, AoS has been in a MESS since it started around 5 years ago. This year getting it to a point where the whole game is running 2.0 armies iwth battletomes and armies "safe" from being removed is a huge step. The way I see it griping about what was lost won't gain anything and its better to look forward and hope for a better future that the cleaned up game offers us. 

For example I cannot believe that GW removed something like the high elf dragon and hasn't got another plastic dragon in the waiting or in planning at some stage from them. 

I fully get that TK, Bretonnia and most elf players barring dark elf; are utterly crushed with this newest edition of the game. Heck even traditional dwarves lost a lot and its odd that the cannon were  removed after only being put into a mercenary force weeks earlier. That said the sooner the whole game is on the same rules and updated the sooner GW can get past this hump of removals and into more normal times where they remove and update and add all at once and where most removals are to allow for an updated sculpt. 

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I'm genuinely amazed Raging Hormones models are more expensive than GWs. You'd think if all you had to do was wait for the market leader to come up with the ideas and then remove some clothes and enlarge the ****** on the female sculpts your costs would be much reduced and you could pass that on to the customer, I guess it all comes down to economies of scale in the end.

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13 minutes ago, JPjr said:

I'm genuinely amazed Raging Hormones models are more expensive than GWs. You'd think if all you had to do was wait for the market leader to come up with the ideas and then remove some clothes and enlarge the ****** on the female sculpts your costs would be much reduced and you could pass that on to the customer, I guess it all comes down to economies of scale in the end.

That and most of their models are resin which is cheaper in machinery terms to produce plastic, but is far more labour intensive in man hours to operate and the production rate is far lower. So its ideal for smaller companies to start with metals and resin, but it doesn't always scale well and even when you do scale it up that means more employees to meet demand so you don't get the same price-busting aspects that you can get with plastics. 

 

I must admit I' really want some of their "not untamed beasts" models they've released recently. 

 

I won't lie I "kind of" get a little annoyed at a highly skilled team like that not making their own game and their own designs and themes; plus I sympathise with GW in terms of them being the only company that has to deal with 3rd party competition in this way for model sales (though some of the 15mm and other scales are pretty much the same, except many of htem are far smaller projects and outfits often down to one-man bands and the market just works differently). That said they make some really neat ideas and sculpts. I also like that their equines and mounts are quite large in comparison to the riders; GW has often had it the other way around with quite a few mounts being quite small to what they should be if scaled right (that and very few sculpting companies use proper war-horse sizes - they are all darn racing ponies in stature for the most part) 

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14 minutes ago, Overread said:

Not quite true, everyone did complain very loudly about the cut units. The thing is most were expecting cuts to happen and also, lets face it, AoS has been in a MESS since it started around 5 years ago. This year getting it to a point where the whole game is running 2.0 armies iwth battletomes and armies "safe" from being removed is a huge step. The way I see it griping about what was lost won't gain anything and its better to look forward and hope for a better future that the cleaned up game offers us. 

For example I cannot believe that GW removed something like the high elf dragon and hasn't got another plastic dragon in the waiting or in planning at some stage from them. 

I fully get that TK, Bretonnia and most elf players barring dark elf; are utterly crushed with this newest edition of the game. Heck even traditional dwarves lost a lot and its odd that the cannon were  removed after only being put into a mercenary force weeks earlier. That said the sooner the whole game is on the same rules and updated the sooner GW can get past this hump of removals and into more normal times where they remove and update and add all at once and where most removals are to allow for an updated sculpt. 

You know how this could have been solved? Communication.

Internal (not making models you're scrapping mercenaries) and external (Are these sets going to be replaced by new sculpts? Which ones? Giving customers reasonable time before scrapping the sculpts etc).

Which the post to which I reacted stated was improved.

Now I have never been interested in GW communication before this year, but I was assured it had been better under new management. It may be better, but a far cry from what I expected a "better" state to be.

I was also assured (not on this forum, not by GW) that instances where models lost their rules were very rare, and that Fantasy to AoS had already phased out everything they wanted gone. Before AoS, only Squats and Halflings lost rules, and that's in three decades.

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Yes the loss of models from AoS is VERY exceptional for a main game from GW and even their specialist games in the past never lost armies - GW just closed the games down entirely. I also agree that internal communication within GW needs to improve and that its clear there are breakdowns. We've also seen it when models get a base size change, but the box models retain the old base size which leads to GW having to revoke the size change. Things where models are being marketed one month and then removed the next should also not happen; but it does.

 

One thing that might be going on is that its basically an issue whereby GW is taking a 2 or 3 year view and we are only seeing a short part of that because they don't reveal it all. Eg the loss of Dwarven Cannon might not be an issue because there's new models coming, but not for many months/year or more. So in GW's view its not an issue, but it is short term for gamers. 

 

I agree there IS room to improve, but that is not to say that GW has not already made huge improvements thus far. 

 

In general what has happened with AoS is  a rare mess and its clear that at times GW itself hasn't known quite what to do with it. Plus lets not forget many of the issues were started when it launched. AoS and its fans have had a seriously rough ride, but there's light at the end of the tunnel and hopefully by this time next year ALL removals are gone and we are into better times of new models, new sculpts and replacement sculpts only. 

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