The Rumour Thread

[Skabnoze]

Not sure how much to read into the German thread about factions and sales, but I am not surprised to hear about Fyreslayers and Idoneth sales being low.

Fyreslayers have 2 big issues that I can see and I expect that they both impact the sales.  First, they have some absurdly high-priced box sets for infantry.  They are an expensive army to buy.  Second, they have somewhat of a silhouette issue in the army.  Everything really blends together from a couple feet away.  The models all look good for what they are, but they all look very much alike.

I don’t know what it was about Idoneth, but I know that my interest was high up until I got the book.  A whole lot of my enthusiasm in this case was lost when some of the units had very underwhelming stats and abilities - especially the shark.  In addition, it seems to me that they dragged the initial release out too far and more interesting stuff came out since then.  I can’t speak for others, but I would be more interested in the army if they had wider build options & synergies for armies with all fish-riders.

[Deepkin]

4 minutes ago, robinlvalentine said:

Not to mention rampant racism, anti-semitism, sexism, and about every other -ism under the sun... Like most of 4chan, it's not a nice place to linger

Yes it is quite the cesspit.

[Gecktron]

1 minute ago, Furuzzolo said:

Good lord what have i done? 😥

I doomed Dispossessed with my "add to cart" alone...

Its not that they are ignored because they sell. The person explained that kits that still sell reasonable well dont need immediate action. They can leave it as it is while they work on a new release because they still make money. But if the kits start costing more than they make they have to do something quick (repacking, boxsets, etc) to reduce costs and raise profits. 

[Overread]

Fyreslayers are as highly priced as Daughters of Khaine so that isn't a barrier on its own. However I agree they have far too few units and not enough army diversity. Which is no surprise; they are a corner of the dwarf army and basically not very interesting on their own. They certainly need either rolling back into Dwarves in general or updating like Daughters of Khaine got so that they've got more interesting variety within the faction.

Fyreslayers not selling strong is no shock to me.  The issues with them as an army are very apparent and they are another casualty of the early AoS era when armies were just too small on their own. 

 

I'm sure GW will repair them though - they've put too much into lore and background and investment to just dump them. They are just likely going to have to wait. These are both exciting times for AoS as armies get updated; but also frustrating times for those eager for specific armies and waiting for them to get an update. The only thing rocking the boat is the recent confusion over GW pulling Greenskins suddenly - esp when they had some modern models and a getting started set and were specifically allied to the Goblin Gits. Of course it might just be they've pulled them early in anticipation of a bigger launch, but I'd have expected some news on that by now if they were. 

[Skabnoze]

5 minutes ago, Overread said:

Idoneth look fantastic but I can understand why they might be harder sell than some others - they are the most epic and out-there of all the factions at present; being as they are flying fish on land. You know I'd wager if GW were to publish some really outstanding full battle artwork of them at war it would help them sell. And I don't mean their classic "two armies facing each other and not really engaging" but an actual battle picture that shows them in the full swing of their magical tide.

Sometimes I think that if you spark the imagination in gamers they will discover they really like a faction without realising it. Heck I'm certain GW knows this and its why they make a lot of lore and support material. Similarly its often something I think a lot of smaller compaines lack and that hinders them getting a bigger market. For me its no shock that games with artwork and lore do well. 

 

Also Idoneth are 100% new. There's nothing in them that even connects to previous armies so there's no "return" market. Other factions might well be selling really well because they are not just getting new, but also many returning customers eager for their armies to arise again from the ashes of the old world and take war unto the realms! 

I was all on board with the flying fish army as a concept.  What stopped me after picking up the book is the rules.  The army looks fine, but it is very heavily based on Namarti to the point where you are playing with maybe a bit over half the unit options if you leave them out.  In addition, the synergy options for all Akhelian forces are a bit limited.  On top of that, some of the unit profiles are quite meh (the shark...).

I tend to dislike elves in general, but they had me with the flying fish & turtles.  But then I read the book and lost enthusiasm.  Maybe I will make a small force of them later - but other stuff caught my eye since then.

[relic456]

8 minutes ago, Overread said:

You know I'd wager if GW were to publish some really outstanding full battle artwork of them at war it would help them sell. And I don't mean their classic "two armies facing each other and not really engaging" but an actual battle picture that shows them in the full swing of their magical tide.

This comment instantly made me think of this one:

 

The Soulrender atop a mound of Skaven corpses with their souls being pulled in to this lantern is so sick!

[Skabnoze]

1 minute ago, Overread said:

Fyreslayers are as highly priced as Daughters of Khaine so that isn't a barrier on its own.

Maybe for Vulkites, but Hearthguard come in largw units and are sold at 5 to a box for $40.  Given that this unit is battleline and the army itself only had a couple options for units and this army becomes deceptively expensive.  If they repackaged Hearthguard as 10 to a box for $50-$60 I bet this army would be more popular.

There would still be the visual issue though.  They could solve that by some lizard cavalry about the size of Gore Gruntas.  

[Nos]

Idoneth are expensive and they have more heroes than units. I think that’s the main issue. Start Collecting sets will see them increase in popularity quite a bit I think. Aquaman franchise probably won’t do their sales any harm either.

[JPjr]

For me Fyreslayers are one of those armies that look cool in isolation (or as they were small special colourful units within a bigger army) but dull as dishwater as just a massive blob of orange with almost nothing to make any one unit or indeed hero particularly stand out (bar the big magmadroth).

Some kind of Salamander cavalry would definitely be interesting but really anything to break up a sea of little orange buggers would surely help

 

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by JPjr

[robinlvalentine]

15 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Not sure how much to read into the German thread about factions and sales, but I am not surprised to hear about Fyreslayers and Idoneth sales being low.

Fyreslayers have 2 big issues that I can see and I expect that they both impact the sales.  First, they have some absurdly high-priced box sets for infantry.  They are an expensive army to buy.  Second, they have somewhat of a silhouette issue in the army.  Everything really blends together from a couple feet away.  The models all look good for what they are, but they all look very much alike.

I don’t know what it was about Idoneth, but I know that my interest was high up until I got the book.  A whole lot of my enthusiasm in this case was lost when some of the units had very underwhelming stats and abilities - especially the shark.  In addition, it seems to me that they dragged the initial release out too far and more interesting stuff came out since then.  I can’t speak for others, but I would be more interested in the army if they had wider build options & synergies for armies with all fish-riders.

Yeah I was definitely similar... I was really hyped for the release, it was actually the thing that finally got me to commit to making an Age Of Sigmar army. 

Then, as you say, the book was a bit deflating.

I think the problem was, they designed these two archetypes for the faction: Namarti horde army, or eel cavalry army. So many of their units feel like they only work in one or the other, so for any given list you're basically taking their already tiny selection of units and halving it (and then removing the units that just seem rubbish). 

So I'd fallen in love with models like Lotann, the Soulrender, and Namarti Reavers, only to discover that because I didn't want to paint loads of infantry, I couldn't really justify taking them.

I'd definitely have preferred if it had all been a bit more integrated together - even if it might have meant less strongly defined archetypes. 

Ended up going for Stormcast instead in the end, despite having already invested in the book, the shipwreck, and a box of Thralls. 

[Though it also didn't help that, while trying out my colour scheme on the Thralls, I found them maddeningly difficult to paint]

[Deepkin]

Dispossessed also sell strongly because GW dwarf models have always had a strong aesthetic. And they can be used for other systems, like the Ninth Age or Mordheim, quite easily. Something like Fyreslayers are a departure from an earlier aesthetic (too much butt cheek and helmet to blend in with old slayers) and extraordinarily expensive to boot. Slayers were always a cool part of the Dwarf army, but they were only a part. Outside of gimmick armies like the Storm of Chaos Slayer Cult army (Goblin hewer when!), they were never the focus of the army, but rather an opportunity for some very characterful models (and generally naff rules, unfortunately. They are quite awesome in the 9th age though, which is cool). 

Their lore is kinda terrible too: the lava dwarfs in their lava holds, burning with fiery rage that powers their fire steel axes as they ride into battle on their magma lizards while sipping magmalt ale. There is some cool stuff there to expand on (their mercenary nature, their collective addiction to literally consuming pieces of their dead god to make themselves stronger, the fact that they prospered where the other dwarfs suffered) but it kinda got buried in all the dumb of early AoS.

[eciu]

51 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

TL;DR: Some factions sold way better than expected (Beastclawriders, Kharadrons, Dispossessed, Devoted of Sigmar) Some worse (Fyreslayers and ,surprisingly, Idoneth Deepkin)

LOL

"Squatt old factions, new ones are better and more interesting!"

[FlatTooth]

40 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Not sure how much to read into the German thread about factions and sales, but I am not surprised to hear about Fyreslayers and Idoneth sales being low.

Fyreslayers have 2 big issues that I can see and I expect that they both impact the sales.  First, they have some absurdly high-priced box sets for infantry.  They are an expensive army to buy.  Second, they have somewhat of a silhouette issue in the army.  Everything really blends together from a couple feet away.  The models all look good for what they are, but they all look very much alike.

I don’t know what it was about Idoneth, but I know that my interest was high up until I got the book.  A whole lot of my enthusiasm in this case was lost when some of the units had very underwhelming stats and abilities - especially the shark.  In addition, it seems to me that they dragged the initial release out too far and more interesting stuff came out since then.  I can’t speak for others, but I would be more interested in the army if they had wider build options & synergies for armies with all fish-riders.

Yeah when I came back into AoS I was already to hop on the fyreslayer bandwagon until I did some very basic math and get very sad hahaha

[chord]

Interesting,  I'm not surprised the Seraphon still sell well.  It almost makes me wonder who would think they wouldn't.  

Dinosaurs!  Dinosaurs riding Dinosaurs!  The start collecting box grabs so much attention with the kick a** carnosaur on it.

[Gecktron]

5 minutes ago, eciu said:

LOL

"Squatt old factions, new ones are better and more interesting!"

The person notes that new factions sell very well its just that Idoneth sold below expectations. This doesnt mean they dont sell at all, just that GW hoped for a bigger success. 

For all intents and purposes, new factions are very good for AoS and Games Workshop. 

[eciu]

1 minute ago, Gecktron said:

The person notes that new factions sell very well its just that Idoneth sold below expectations. This doesnt mean they dont sell at all, just that GW hoped for a bigger success. 

For all intents and purposes, new factions are very good for AoS and Games Workshop. 

Maintained and supported factions are always better than neglated and forgotten ones. 

[HollowHills]

I don't know if I believe that deepkin sold worse than expected, I see a lot of interest in them around the web. That said I suppose it depends on what the expectations were. 

If they did sell badly I can think of a few reasons. 

1) DoK released about a month beforehand. Players who had been waiting for new elves might have jumped in on DoK and had less interest in deepkin. 

2) they are quite intimidating for a new player in terms of painting. Lots of small models with fiddly details and a centrepiece that looks quite hard to paint in the eidolon (I found him relatively easy due to the size of the model but I did use stuff like wetblending, layered shades etc) 

3) the more unique you make something the more people will either love it or hate it. 

4) lack of history, no relation to previous lore or characters mentioned outside the battletome. 

5) can't be used in other fantasy games. 

6) complex rules that make the army quite punishing to play.

If this is true my biggest fear is that GW won't bother releasing new sculpts for them in future. Though to some extent beyond stormcast eternals we haven't seen aos factions get new units in general.

I do believe GW see more value in releasing completely new armies than one or two models for an existing faction. 

[HollowHills]

2 minutes ago, eciu said:

Maintained and supported factions are always better than neglated and forgotten ones. 

All your posts seem to be negative towards new age of sigmar factions and positive about old WHFB ones. 

If you dislike AoS stuff then there is nothing stopping you picking up a 7th Ed rule book on ebay or playing 9th age. 

[eciu]

2 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

2) they are quite intimidating for a new player in terms of painting. Lots of small models with fiddly details and a centrepiece that looks quite hard to paint in the eidolon (I found him relatively easy due to the size of the model but I did use stuff like wetblending, layered shades etc) 

Well Nighthaunt seems ever more difficult to paint. 

 

2 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

3) the more unique you make something the more people will either love it or hate it

So it is now ok to say some people find them funny while some find them amazing ?

 

3 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

4) lack of history, no relation to previous lore or characters mentioned outside the battletome. 

Wait, isn't their Avatar an (almost?) literal throwback/entity from the Old World ? (as their whole theme being a seas/elfs/sea god at extremum)

 

4 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

5) can't be used in other fantasy games. 

Disputable, they could be probably quite easy used as some deamonic standin for many different factions (new Deamon Legions for 9th age as a example). 

 

[eciu]

7 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

All your posts seem to be negative towards new age of sigmar factions and positive about old WHFB ones

No they are not. KO thematicly are really cool "evolution" of dwarves and after reading their lore they do look quite interesting if hilariously similar to old dwarfs (old one being fixated on grudges, new ones fixated on profit (due to survival issues)). Sad thing that their rules are well ... as they are. 

Nighthaunt and Flesh Eater Courts also seem good (especially with FEC backstory). 

I have no idea why you think I dont like all new factions. 

 

(also I don't recall calling out for removal of whole factions "because I don't like them")

Edited January 23, 2019 by eciu

[bsharitt]

6 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

I don't know if I believe that deepkin sold worse than expected, I see a lot of interest in them around the web. That said I suppose it depends on what the expectations were. 

If they did sell badly I can think of a few reasons. 

1) DoK released about a month beforehand. Players who had been waiting for new elves might have jumped in on DoK and had less interest in deepkin. 

2) they are quite intimidating for a new player in terms of painting. Lots of small models with fiddly details and a centrepiece that looks quite hard to paint in the eidolon (I found him relatively easy due to the size of the model but I did use stuff like wetblending, layered shades etc) 

3) the more unique you make something the more people will either love it or hate it. 

4) lack of history, no relation to previous lore or characters mentioned outside the battletome. 

5) can't be used in other fantasy games. 

6) complex rules that make the army quite punishing to play.

If this is true my biggest fear is that GW won't bother releasing new sculpts for them in future. Though to some extent beyond stormcast eternals we haven't seen aos factions get new units in general.

I do believe GW see more value in releasing completely new armies than one or two models for an existing faction. 

It seems like GW hit a weird design spot with the Idoneth Deepkin. The most common sentiment I hear about them is along the lines of "they look cool, but I don't personally want an army of them". While they're technically elves, they're not 'elfy' enough so people with emotional attachment to elves don't seem immediately drawn to them. It's like GW overshot the mark on uniqueness with them, where as Kharadon Overlords still have a enough 'dwarfiness' to them that Dwarf fans were immediately drawn in. Or at least that's my general observation on my admittedly small sample size of players.

[Overread]

KO are what Dwarves of Old would have been closer too if the Guild had not kept such a heavy lid on technology. Even in old lore books they could build huge Zepplins; the only thing KO bring is a new technology that lets them fit a zepplin style ship onto a 35mm table without breaking the bank. 

[HollowHills]

3 minutes ago, bsharitt said:

It seems like GW hit a weird design spot with the Idoneth Deepkin. The most common sentiment I hear about them is along the lines of "they look cool, but I don't personally want an army of them". While they're technically elves, they're not 'elfy' enough so people with emotional attachment to elves don't seem immediately drawn to them. It's like GW overshot the mark on uniqueness with them, where as Kharadon Overlords still have a enough 'dwarfiness' to them that Dwarf fans were immediately drawn in. Or at least that's my general observation on my admittedly small sample size of players.

I can see what you mean. Only a few of the heroes are recognisable as elves, nemarti don't at all and the riders are fairly covered up. 

I think a lot of people were expecting them to be a bit more horrifying based on the cthulu elves rumours, but I doubt the general public paid that any mind. 

Personally I would have liked more sea creatures, especially intelligent ones like the octopus that hangs out with lotann. 

I still feel like the idoneth are so fantastic though and I'd love to see more representation of them in the fluff goinh forward. 

[JPjr]

1 minute ago, HollowHills said:

Personally I would have liked more sea creatures, especially intelligent ones like the octopus that hangs out with lotann. 

oh this! irrespective of rules the shark and turtle are awesome things and it was only knowing the soul wars box was coming that stopped me buying one. 

I still keep meaning to pick up Lotann just to paint as I love his little club wielding Ochtar wingman. If they brought out a couple more kits like that, a big octopus and/or armour plated war crab then I'd be insanely tempted to just buy them for the hell of it.

[GeneralZero]

I'm not surprised at all that ID didn't sale as expected. I kinda predicted it when it was out. This is for the very same reason that Mortal Engines did a mega flop at the end of last year.

The problem of ID is "blind elves on flying fishs" (caricature here). It is really too far from the collective unthinking. It is why heroic fatasy is always in a medieval world (exception maybe Harry potter).

The sculpts and the army look great but hey, flying shark 'n turtles?