The Rumour Thread

[Fyrenn]

8 minutes ago, novakai said:

That lore was written during AoS and in their first battletome, I think people are saying that they could have given Beastmen a clean slate before AoS started and put them in Destruction just to: 

a) make the GA makeup look more even at the beginning

b) since GW narrative put emphasis on Destruction with Beast and Ghur it kind of clash and competes with Beastmen in the lore. In someway they get overshadow by destruction

c)  there a sense of competition and crowdedness with in the GA Chaos, that it’s hard for every army to get the spotlight and it seem GW favor the monogods armies or Chaos undivided, while people view destruction as less competition 

 

though I do think it also that Beastmen have never really been popular or given much love to begins with by GW and the players just want something to elevated them.

I think part of the issue is a lot of what they seemed to be good at originally - being a fast and monstrous faction got dilluted greatly in AoS.

If I remember correctly in fantasy there were Chaos Warriors, which were most of the mortals.  Chaos Demons, which were all of the demons,  then Beastmen, which were not like the heavily armored Chaos Warriors but more glass cannony.

There was overlap, sure, but they felt distinct.  

By making each of the gods their own faction with more or less a focus (magic, fighting, sturdiness, and speed)  alongside a well varied StD roster, it is no longer clear to me what niche BoC is supposed to play that someone else isn't able to do better.

I don't even know what role they're supposed to fill, which makes them feel lost.  I don't think GW knows what to do with them either, which is what's really sad.  Maybe focusing more on Dogors to be a heavy army like a chaos ogor equivilent with lots of monsters where the gors are relegated to chaff between big monsters?  That is the one thing that I think might work and be sort of cool.

[novakai]

3 minutes ago, Higolx said:

I mean, we could start discussing the "coulds" of early AoS but thats one thing. Saying that beasts of chaos are only in GA Chaos because of leftover lore when they actually have AoS lore to back that up doesnt really make a lot of sense to me tbh. Now to answer some of the topics

a) Well, the GA balance has always favored Order heavely and Chaos is second place. Im not really sure how changing one army around would've fixed the problem.

b) Thats 3rd edition narrative. When they came up with that BoC were already established as chaos so I dont see the problem. Also, when we go to 4th edition and focus on another plane (or even before that) the problem will be gone.

c) Well, destruction was not getting attention at all tbh, even when they add armies to it. Just look at Sons of Behemat or how much  they added to destruction after that until kruleboyz came. Sadly its not a lot.

And yeah, it always felt that beastmen were always left for last, even on the totalwar games. They were a DLC army on the first game and only now were reworked and fixed. Sadly I think that beastmen and BoC arent just that popular. Maybe a range refresh would bring more people to them but Im not really helpful about that.

The topic are what I notice what people feel though, that why the topic of beast in destruction keeps coming up. Not saying if things would have change drastically if GW decided to do it this way but since AoS was a new setting they didn’t really have to abide by the old world lore.

 

[Higolx]

5 minutes ago, Fyrenn said:

I think part of the issue is a lot of what they seemed to be good at originally - being a fast and monstrous faction got dilluted greatly in AoS.

If I remember correctly in fantasy there were Chaos Warriors, which were most of the mortals.  Chaos Demons, which were all of the demons,  then Beastmen, which were not like the heavily armored Chaos Warriors but more glass cannony.

There was overlap, sure, but they felt distinct.  

By making each of the gods their own faction with more or less a focus (magic, fighting, sturdiness, and speed)  alongside a well varied StD roster, it is no longer clear to me what niche BoC is supposed to play that someone else isn't able to do better.

I don't even know what role they're supposed to fill, which makes them feel lost.  I don't think GW knows what to do with them either, which is what's really sad.  Maybe focusing more on Dogors to be a heavy army like a chaos ogor equivilent with lots of monsters where the gors are relegated to chaff between big monsters?  That is the one thing that I think might work and be sort of cool.

I can see that tbh. With chaos getting 4 new armies in the form of the mortal counterparts of the chaos gods I'm sure beastmen lost a lot of design space sadly. Bu that still is not enough reason to try and change them to GA Destruction. If anything, I think it would be easier to just change Kragnos to be a BoC unit than changing an entire army to a different GA just because of one unit.

[Gothmaug]

13 minutes ago, novakai said:

That lore was written during AoS and in their first battletome, I think people are saying that they could have given Beastmen a clean slate before AoS started and put them in Destruction just to: 

a) make the GA makeup look more even at the beginning

b) since GW narrative put emphasis on Destruction with Beast and Ghur it kind of clash and competes with Beastmen in the lore. In someway they get overshadow by destruction

c)  there a sense of competition and crowdedness with in the GA Chaos, that it’s hard for every army to get the spotlight and it seem GW favor the monogods armies or Chaos undivided, while people view destruction as less competition 

 

though I do think it also that Beastmen have never really been popular or given much love to begins with by GW and the players just want something to elevated them.

Here's the secret problem with AOS's grand alliances. They're terrible groupings. Sure there's sort of an opposite relationship between the concepts of "Order" and "Chaos". But "Death" and "Destruction" don't have much synergy with each other, or with Order/Chaos. Ive seen people take all the factions and move them into new categories based on Order/Chaos vs Life/Death grand alliances, and that balances rather well. Or smashing the more lawful and orderly death and Order grand allainces together, and the same with the world burning forces of Chaos and Destruction. 

But assuming we have to work with what we got, then  why cant a chaos-worshipping army fit under Destruction? Destruction is a concept based on wanton damage, without regard for anything else. Who cares who the army worships?   If Beasts of Chaos behave like they are just engines of destruction on the mortal plane, then go ahead and stick them under destruction. IF they venerate the chaos pantheon instead of gorkamorka, why does that matter? Frankly you could toss Daughters of Khaine into destruction as well, they should never have been Order in the first place. 

I vote for just deleting grand alliances altogether. The current rules don't really support grand alliance armies anymore, so why pretend? Sigmar's alliance is broken, allow the various factions to scatter and ally with who they choose. Ogre mercenaries working for Cities of Sigmar? Why not? Kharadron mercenaries working with Gloomspite git alchemists on airships? Sounds fine to me. More orderly and lawful factions like vampires and stormcast teaming up to stop the chaotic reality warping essence of Tzeench? Sure. All good fun.  Thumbs up to cross faction allies!

[Higolx]

Just now, novakai said:

but since AoS was a new setting they didn’t really have to abide by the old world lore.

 

Well, except for chaos really. Many of the chaos forces and generals we see todays were the same that fought in the world that was. It would've been very werid for this force that has always been chaos centered and that probably spent some time in the realm of chaos before AoS to just change sides. If there's one GA that strongly relies on old world lore is Chaos.

[Higolx]

1 minute ago, Gothmaug said:

Here's the secret problem with AOS's grand alliances. They're terrible groupings. Sure there's sort of an opposite relationship between the concepts of "Order" and "Chaos". But "Death" and "Destruction" don't have much synergy with each other, or with Order/Chaos. Ive seen people take all the factions and move them into new categories based on Order/Chaos vs Life/Death grand alliances, and that balances rather well. Or smashing the more lawful and orderly death and Order grand allainces together, and the same with the world burning forces of Chaos and Destruction. 

But assuming we have to work with what we got, then  why cant a chaos-worshipping army fit under Destruction? Destruction is a concept based on wanton damage, without regard for anything else. Who cares who the army worships?   If Beasts of Chaos behave like they are just engines of destruction on the mortal plane, then go ahead and stick them under destruction. IF they venerate the chaos pantheon instead of gorkamorka, why does that matter? Frankly you could toss Daughters of Khaine into destruction as well, they should never have been Order in the first place. 

I vote for just deleting grand alliances altogether. The current rules don't really support grand alliance armies anymore, so why pretend? Sigmar's alliance is broken, allow the various factions to scatter and ally with who they choose. Ogre mercenaries working for Cities of Sigmar? Why not? Kharadron mercenaries working with Gloomspite git alchemists on airships? Sounds fine to me. More orderly and lawful factions like vampires and stormcast teaming up to stop the chaotic reality warping essence of Tzeench? Sure. All good fun.  Thumbs up to cross faction allies!

Thats because GAs are exclusionary categories. Do you worship chaos? Chaos. If no, are you dead? Death. If no, do you like buildings and Order? If yes, order. If no, Destruction.

Thats why they still exist even if they sound like they shouldnt work out, because Order is literally just a leftover Grand Alliance. Same with Destruction.

I dont particularly love or hate GAs enough to wanna maintain or delete them tbh so I dont have a position on this. I just feel that if they were to delete GAs they would've to work on some limitations on the allies rules. Maybe instead of having a list of possible allies having a list of prohibited allies. Like saying Stormcast cant work with chaos armies and vice versa.

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++
Just a nudge back to rumours please. 

If you want to discuss how the true children of Chaos could end up in destruction, start a new topic 😉

[novakai]

3 minutes ago, Higolx said:

I can see that tbh. With chaos getting 4 new armies in the form of the mortal counterparts of the chaos gods I'm sure beastmen lost a lot of design space sadly. Bu that still is not enough reason to try and change them to GA Destruction. If anything, I think it would be easier to just change Kragnos to be a BoC unit than changing an entire army to a different GA just because of one unit.

Well it too late to do either anyway. Kragnos is firmly in warclan now and they are not going to take one thing out of an army and put into another just to please certain people. Beastmen is going to just exist until Gw decides to do anything with them or lavish for eternity 

4 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

Here's the secret problem with AOS's grand alliances. They're terrible groupings. Sure there's sort of an opposite relationship between the concepts of "Order" and "Chaos". But "Death" and "Destruction" don't have much synergy with each other, or with Order/Chaos. Ive seen people take all the factions and move them into new categories based on Order/Chaos vs Life/Death grand alliances, and that balances rather well. Or smashing the more lawful and orderly death and Order grand allainces together, and the same with the world burning forces of Chaos and Destruction. 

But assuming we have to work with what we got, then  why cant a chaos-worshipping army fit under Destruction? Destruction is a concept based on wanton damage, without regard for anything else. Who cares who the army worships?   If Beasts of Chaos behave like they are just engines of destruction on the mortal plane, then go ahead and stick them under destruction. IF they venerate the chaos pantheon instead of gorkamorka, why does that matter? Frankly you could toss Daughters of Khaine into destruction as well, they should never have been Order in the first place. 

I vote for just deleting grand alliances altogether. The current rules don't really support grand alliance armies anymore, so why pretend? Sigmar's alliance is broken, allow the various factions to scatter and ally with who they choose. Ogre mercenaries working for Cities of Sigmar? Why not? Kharadron mercenaries working with Gloomspite git alchemists on airships? Sounds fine to me. More orderly and lawful factions like vampires and stormcast teaming up to stop the chaotic reality warping essence of Tzeench? Sure. All good fun.  Thumbs up to cross faction allies!

I think  because their an aversion to too much soup outside of narrative play ( happen with 40k) and that GW and people actually like it as a narrative framing devices. There also a sense of your army being part of a big team much like how WoW and ESO had their cool group of alliances.

8 minutes ago, Higolx said:

Well, except for chaos really. Many of the chaos forces and generals we see todays were the same that fought in the world that was. It would've been very werid for this force that has always been chaos centered and that probably spent some time in the realm of chaos before AoS to just change sides. If there's one GA that strongly relies on old world lore is Chaos.

Well people specifically though that Beast and Skaven where just group there as more of an afterthought because they where loosely tied with Chaos in the old world. And those specific two have not really gotten much either in AoS. Not saying it would have been any better in Destruction 

[Higolx]

1 minute ago, Gaz Taylor said:

+++ Mod Hat On +++
Just a nudge back to rumours please. 

If you want to discuss how the true children of Chaos could end up in destruction, start a new topic 😉

Aight, sorry. Guess we got too excited.

[novakai]

Well there was a sad rumor from Studio Eastwood that Bonesplitter where getting discontinued in a few years from now and he felt more sure of it with how bad Bonesplitter got it in  the last tome 

[Gothmaug]

Well I figured we were discussing the plausibility of a rumor being true, but I guess we got of course. 

 

So back on track: in that case, are we going to see a new gloomspite spider rider unit released for warcry? Like actual new plastic spiders and riders, with a boss? 

 

Or is the entire next expansion based on this "spider" theme? Are there any old world chaos gods that were associated with spiders?? Who'd the Chaos Dwarves worship anyhow? Could the rumored chaos dwarves army actually be a warry relase?

 

 

[micahaphone]

26 minutes ago, novakai said:

Well there was a sad rumor from Studio Eastwood that Bonesplitter where getting discontinued in a few years from now and he felt more sure of it with how bad Bonesplitter got it in  the last tome 

I understand why old lines get squatted and all that, it just feels weird that the most wild and free living faction (fits the most onto ghur) who have always had monster hunting specialists (with 3.0 having such a focus on monsters) are getting forgotten. I'm assuming that GW has sales numbers and is kind of swapping them out for kruleboyz, EDIT: the following isn't true, I misunderstood where Big Stabbas came from.

 

 

but it's weird that the anti monster unit (the two orcs holding a giant spear) isn't even on their online webstore any more. Not a "sold out online" stamp over it (like most bonesplitters) but completely disappeared.

Edited September 20, 2021 by micahaphone
I was incorrect

[KingBrodd]

3 hours ago, novakai said:

Nah he not a goat creature, and destruction has always been affiliated with beast and Ghur in AoS so a giant beast creature god made sense in the narrative. Having one goat centaur creature in your army doesn’t mean every centaur creature is automatically part of your army.

It more narrative discord as to why beast of chaos are in chaos GA other then the fact that they historically been part of chaos like skaven

 

100, I'm no longer a Kragnos conspiracy theorist!! 

 

14 minutes ago, novakai said:

Well there was a sad rumor from Studio Eastwood that Bonesplitter where getting discontinued in a few years from now and he felt more sure of it with how bad Bonesplitter got it in  the last tome 

I really hope this Rumour isnt true, poor Bonesplitterz.

[novakai]

10 minutes ago, micahaphone said:

I understand why old lines get squatted and all that, it just feels weird that the most wild and free living faction (fits the most onto ghur) who have always had monster hunting specialists (with 3.0 having such a focus on monsters) are getting forgotten. I'm assuming that GW has sales numbers and is kind of swapping them out for kruleboyz, but it's weird that the anti monster unit (the two orcs holding a giant spear) isn't even on their online webstore any more. Not a "sold out online" stamp over it (like most bonesplitters) but completely disappeared.

The big stabbas is a weird one because they are made from the savage Orruk boyz kit by using 4 of the bodies and then you are left with 16 savage boys models 

[micahaphone]

I wish there was some shareholder annual report or something like that so we could see sales numbers, I wonder if the bonesplitters have sold poorly. I know at some point it was leaked that Tomb Kings and Brettonia always sold poorly (hence them not getting the jump to AoS) but current data over years old data could be interesting.

[micahaphone]

Just now, novakai said:

The big stabbas is a weird one because they are made from the savage Orruk boyz kit by using 4 of the bodies and then you are left with 16 savage boys models 

Oops, my bad. Sorry for the misleading info, I don't personally own any orcs or orruks or orks, assumed the unit would've been sold separately. I'll edit my post in a sec.

[Snorri Nelriksson]

31 minutes ago, micahaphone said:

I wish there was some shareholder annual report or something like that so we could see sales numbers, I wonder if the bonesplitters have sold poorly. I know at some point it was leaked that Tomb Kings and Brettonia always sold poorly (hence them not getting the jump to AoS) but current data over years old data could be interesting.

It's the old tale of "we never support some factions then they don't sell enough to get supported".
Bretonnia never got anything after the end of the sixth edition\beginning of 7th iirc, TK at least got a tome in 8th edition.
TBH is the danger for some aos armies like Fyreslayers and some "microfaction armies" like Bonesplitterz or spiderfang....they are in dire need of new models (not only new but also refresh of older units) but probably they don't sell enough to get something, but they don't sell enough also because they are left in shambles.
 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Snorri Nelriksson

[FFJump]

54 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

So back on track: in that case, are we going to see a new gloomspite spider rider unit released for warcry? Like actual new plastic spiders and riders, with a boss? 

 

Or is the entire next expansion based on this "spider" theme? Are there any old world chaos gods that were associated with spiders?? Who'd the Chaos Dwarves worship anyhow? Could the rumored chaos dwarves army actually be a warry relase?

 

 

I was thinking new Spiderfang, but I don't know about that. I get the feeling its actually going to be some new type of spiders, like not even a faction but roaming monsters like the chaos chickens and furies. I personally think Red Harvest is a new boxed set similar to catacombs with two factions and then new Chaos-themed spider creatures to act as roaming monsters.

The Chaos Dwarfs worship Hashut, Father of Darkness, who is bull-themed. Hence Bull Centaurs and the horn motifs. In the new Orruk Warclans battletome it specifically says they still worship Hashut, so doubt they're going to have anything to do with the spiders. Maybe they could be a new Warcry faction ahead of their tome though, but I honestly expect when they get revealed its going to be a big deal with a teaser and everything, not just a Warcry faction thrown in when they're already hyping up spiders.

Edited September 20, 2021 by FFJump

[sandlemad]

1 hour ago, Gothmaug said:

Sooo... Besides one  Orc with a Belcha-banner we've been told is supposed to represent Kragnos, (but frankly has three eyes and looks like a stretched squig), what else about the Kreulboyz aesthetic is linked to Kragnos? To me they look like a bunch of squig-skinning orks reminiscent of older additions, and don't have much in the way of giant horned god effigies/symbols anywhere. The foot shaman and vulture shaman have a very orky "hand of Gork" on top of thier staves, all the shields and armor bits on the troops and troggoths have wide toothy mouths with one to multiple eyes (very squiggy), seriously, here are all the Kragnos bits that people refer to?

It's not much but see the multipart gutrippas banner with a horned quaking mountain-breaking figure or the explicitly kruleboys-themed effigy on Kraggie's base. The Belcha-Banna too has Kragnos's horns, even if it's the same painted red metal, and lays out a hierarchy of Kragnos above the orks above the hobgrots. There's also the similarity between the broad silhouette of Kragnos's horns and those on many ork helmets, even if those are also call-backs to the old pre-Brian Nelson ork helmets.

I completely agree that it is a minor note in the kruleboys aesthetic compared to the major notes of swamp/scrappy weapons/jagged spikes but my point is that it is clearly deliberate and made part of the plastic miniatures rather than purely being a background feature or a case of disparate factions being lumped together ten minutes before release; there's more tying them to the earthquake god than e.g. tying ironbreakers to black ark corsairs.

It shows that GW wanted to make at least some connection in the miniatures between Kragnos and their new ork faction imitating him in their own ugly opportunistic way, showing that however appropriate Kragnos's position in Destruction is, it was part of his concept for quite a while in GW's design process. If he was ever associated with BoC, that idea was jettisoned pretty early on.

25 minutes ago, FFJump said:

In the new Orruk Warclans battletome it specifically says they still worship Hashut, so doubt they're going to have anything to do with the spiders.

This has been a real surprise, the amount of explicit references to Hashut lately in the background, here and in Soulbound. It's promising, suggests that even AoS-ified dawi zharr will have a fair bit of the old style coming through.

Edited September 20, 2021 by sandlemad

[JCar09]

Next army Papá nurgle , im sure!

[KingBrodd]

Hopefully tomorrows Rumour Engine will shed some light on Warcry.

Also the This Week in Warhammer post did say there would be articles on Underworlds this week. 

[DinoJon]

Have we've seen anything remotely "arachnid" from the rumor engine lately? How often do we get a model that hasn't been shown in the rumor engine? 

[Ganigumo]

3 hours ago, KingBrodd said:

Hopefully tomorrows Rumour Engine will shed some light on Warcry.

Also the This Week in Warhammer post did say there would be articles on Underworlds this week. 

 

25 minutes ago, DinoJon said:

Have we've seen anything remotely "arachnid" from the rumor engine lately? How often do we get a model that hasn't been shown in the rumor engine? 

We did get this rumor engine back in march (that I thought would be spiderfang since the spear is shaped like a spider's leg).

The aesthetic is definitely destruction, its very reminiscent of a spider's leg, and at this point we know its not part of warclans. Theres a good chance this is part of it imo

[Gitzdee]

This could be remotely arachnid. But it seems more like a chaos thing to me.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Iksdee

[Sharkbelly]

On 9/19/2021 at 8:26 AM, Iksdee said:

I am so hyped if spiderfang get some new models :D. Arachnarok and scuttleboss really need some new friends.

I'd love to see this too. I have a small force of them, and some characterful sculpts would be great. What about Grot Scuttlers? Any chance this might refer to them?