The Rumour Thread

[Saodexan]

5 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

That is not how unleash hell works. The command is issued after the enemy unit finishes a charge. Then the unit that receives the command just needs to be within 9" of that enemy unit and more than 3" from other enemies. 

The only way this can not be used is if that ranged unit is already engaged somehow. This is why this command is so dangerous, the only counterplay is to get that range unit charged somehow by either chaff or something sturdy first, but that might not be possible with ranged units sitting just behind an anvil.

Not the "only" counterplay, you can also just charge a monster on the ranged unit and ROAR. Done bye bye archer.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Saodexan

[Marcvs]

1 minute ago, Saodexan said:

Not the "only" counterplay, you can also just charge a monster on the ranged and ROAR. Done bye bye archer.

what's the difference between using a monster in this role instead of any chaff unit? if the unit is engaged they can't use unleash hell anyway, roar or no roar

[Scurvydog]

3 minutes ago, Saodexan said:

Not the "only" counterplay, you can also just charge a monster on the ranged unit and ROAR. Done bye bye archer.

Again that is not how Roar works either. You choose a monster rampage at the end of the charge phase. Roar more specifically then prevents the target unit from receiving or issuing commands the following combat phase. This does in no way prevent the unit from using unleash hell before that happens.

[Grimrock]

3 minutes ago, Athrawes said:

You're exaggerating. If your are 3" away from an enemy unit, the odds of them moving back 6" are 1 in 6, meaning at WORST you end up in the same spot as if you held back 9.5"

Youre complaint seems to boil down to 

"I want everything I do to be successful or it leads to feeling bad"

And that doesn't sound like a good way to design a tactical wargame. 

Eh? Where did you get the idea that I think everything should succeed? And why use charges that start 3" away from the opponent as your primary example? In a quite a few armies if you can move to 3" away then you're already starting your move within 9", so there's hardly any incentive to move at all. I'm speaking for the common case in turns 2/3 where you're attempting to cover ground with charging and not starting beside your opponent. Sure if you can get to 3" away then redeploy isn't going to do much, but in a lot of cases you'll end up around 5-7" away after your movement. If you're not running a cavalry army or something with a lot of speed buffs that's going to happen quite a lot, and that's where we'll see redeploy make a huge difference.

[Saodexan]

19 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Again that is not how Roar works either. You choose a monster rampage at the end of the charge phase. Roar more specifically then prevents the target unit from receiving or issuing commands the following combat phase. This does in no way prevent the unit from using unleash hell before that happens.

I still think there is a lot of ability that can counter it. Like pile in 6'', Howling Gale from a windmage, thing like mighty destroyer or just killing them with ranged first. Charging with chaff is not the "only" counterplay, but still a good one too.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Saodexan

[Marcvs]

23 minutes ago, Saodexan said:

I still think there is a lot of ability that can counter it. Like pile in 6'', Howling Gale from a windmage, thing like mighty destroyer or just killing them with ranged first. Charging with chaff is not the "only" counterplay, but still a good one too.

And that's a good example of why what we have seen so far raises some concerns: if don't have access to mighty destroyers or 6" pile in (all the armies I play don't) the last remaining option in your list is: don't use melee

[Feii]

anybody is able to explain for my smoothbrain how much harder it will be to charge something? If the enemy redeploy while I am within 9 and ready to charge can I redeploy afterwards? Will the match turn into Tom and Jerry skit? 

[Acrozatarim]

19 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

And that's a good example of why what we have seen so far raises some concerns: if don't have access to mighty destroyers or 6" pile in (all the armies I play don't) the last remaining option in your list is: don't use melee

I feel that's something of an overreaction to the new command abilities, especially given their limitations.

We managed alright in WHFB when every enemy unit could pull off charge reactions for free; we'll do fine in AoS3 where it's much more restricted and costs a valuable resource.

[Fuxxx]

@Feii nah, redeploy is only possible in the opponents turn. 

 

Still though. It's basically (ok very simplified) bringing your charge down by D6, isn't it. Yes their D6 is not your D6 and you can be lucky or unlucky but most of the time you're charging 2D6 and they can evade 1D6 first. I don't like it, but it's not like you're in the same position afterwards. The enemy will be D6 inches further back. Take that as a good thing or not, but if a unit is defending an objective for example they might not want to back down. 

Also after playing against Kharadrons with two ships at 1000P it wasn't much different (yes and it sucked), every time I came near they'd teleport so most of the time I was charging from 9" and further as well. Suffice to say I didn't make a lot of charges but stormcast don't have a + to charge (no I don't like using named characters) and armies with musicians and such to boost the charge range might not be hit as hard

[Feii]

3 minutes ago, Fuxxx said:

@Feii nah, redeploy is only possible in the opponents turn. 

 

Still though. It's basically (ok very simplified) bringing your charge down by D6, isn't it. Yes their D6 is not your D6 and you can be lucky or unlucky but most of the time you're charging 2D6 and they can evade 1D6 first. I don't like it, but it's not like you're in the same position afterwards. The enemy will be D6 inches further back. Take that as a good thing or not, but if a unit is defending an objective for example they might not want to back down. 

Also after playing against Kharadrons with two ships at 1000P it wasn't much different (yes and it sucked), every time I came near they'd teleport so most of the time I was charging from 9" and further as well. Suffice to say I didn't make a lot of charges but stormcast don't have a + to charge (no I don't like using named characters) and armies with musicians and such to boost the charge range might not be hit as hard

this tones down the thunderstrike deployment a lot.  Like on average you get 3.5 inches from a D6 so DS 2 inches closer isn't worht it 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, Fuxxx said:

@Feii nah, redeploy is only possible in the opponents turn. 

 

Still though. It's basically (ok very simplified) bringing your charge down by D6, isn't it. Yes their D6 is not your D6 and you can be lucky or unlucky but most of the time you're charging 2D6 and they can evade 1D6 first. I don't like it, but it's not like you're in the same position afterwards. The enemy will be D6 inches further back. Take that as a good thing or not, but if a unit is defending an objective for example they might not want to back down. 

Also after playing against Kharadrons with two ships at 1000P it wasn't much different (yes and it sucked), every time I came near they'd teleport so most of the time I was charging from 9" and further as well. Suffice to say I didn't make a lot of charges but stormcast don't have a + to charge (no I don't like using named characters) and armies with musicians and such to boost the charge range might not be hit as hard

 Redeploy seems to be the reaction of choice if your opponent tries to charge from a significant distance away. From anything closer than 5" or so, you might be better off taking +1 to saves instead. Apparently, the zones of control around objectives are set to get shrink too, from 6" to 3". So redeploy will probably force you to give up control.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, Feii said:

this tones down the thunderstrike deployment a lot.  Like on average you get 3.5 inches from a D6 so DS 2 inches closer isn't worht it 

Still costs your opponent a command point and might move them off an objective. I think there's some tactical depth here.

[Fuxxx]

Just now, Feii said:

this tones down the thunderstrike deployment a lot.  Like on average you get 3.5 inches from a D6 so DS 2 inches closer isn't worht it 

It doesn't - you can do this only in the movement phase (ok check) and only after an enemy finishes a normal move, run or retreat within 9" of you - so you can't run away from sigmars justice! And I just realized that might be my best chance to get in any charges now

But also to get the most out of their ability (and to get charges) you probably land your guys within range of more than one unit. Even if the enemy could run away the opponent still would have to expend 1 command point per unit he wants to do that with, so if you position your units smartly (with normal moves of course ) and are in range of more than one unit you might get off the charge. Your opponent might make it more probable to get one rather than the other though. This could actually lead to some nice bait and switch moments. Now the unit you wanted to charge is further away than the other unit. Do you still risk the charge with the knowledge you might have to move up to the other one?

[Beliman]

Remember that it cost 1 CP and it seems that you can't repeat CAs in the same phase.

You can work around or even bait the oponent to waste CP.

[Harpo2]

Quote

The supposed 'plastic HH' and moving of 40k kits into Heresy has some implication for AOS and Old World.

Granted - it's only rumours I've seen so far of the older 40k kits (Mars Pattern Rhinos and non-primaris Marines etc.) and nothing entirely clear whether it will be purely rules or a complete move, but interesting implications for us.

Granted - judging from Total War and CA's comments - Old World might have FW and GW bring those older kits up to date w/ additions such as Kislev, Cathay etc.

Still, hope HH 'in plastic' has some precendant for GW to fix FW prices and roll them into the single umbrella - with a hope that we update those kits in plastic like Legion of Azgorh. 

Judging with what seems GW's gutting of the FW team - Sugden in WarCom, designers moved to Specialist Games or main games - it just might be...

40k rhino is already useable in 30k, there is no different stat line for a Mars pattern (GW) or Deimos (FW).

The leak 30k spaces marines also look to be different size to the 40k space marines (matching the increase that 40k chaos marines got), so I say the rumour of 40k stuff geting moved into 30k is bunk.

 

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

You can also use Redeploy aggressively, it doesnt have to be used just to save a unit. You can use that D6" movement to get closer to the enemy unit that is charging ensuring you block off more space or force them to go another direction (if you roll well on the D6), get more bodies on an objective, benefit from cover, body block one of your heroes from a crucial charge. It has more implications than moving away from the charging unit.

Admech do this in 40k with Serberys Raiders with Tactica Obliqua.

[Feii]

2 hours ago, Fuxxx said:

It doesn't - you can do this only in the movement phase (ok check) and only after an enemy finishes a normal move, run or retreat within 9" of you - so you can't run away from sigmars justice! And I just realized that might be my best chance to get in any charges now

But also to get the most out of their ability (and to get charges) you probably land your guys within range of more than one unit. Even if the enemy could run away the opponent still would have to expend 1 command point per unit he wants to do that with, so if you position your units smartly (with normal moves of course ) and are in range of more than one unit you might get off the charge. Your opponent might make it more probable to get one rather than the other though. This could actually lead to some nice bait and switch moments. Now the unit you wanted to charge is further away than the other unit. Do you still risk the charge with the knowledge you might have to move up to the other one?

What is the nature of SCE deepstrike I cannot find rules about it. I guess it is not a normal move? 

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

2 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

That is not how unleash hell works. The command is issued after the enemy unit finishes a charge. Then the unit that receives the command just needs to be within 9" of that enemy unit and more than 3" from other enemies. 

The only way this can not be used is if that ranged unit is already engaged somehow. This is why this command is so dangerous, the only counterplay is to get that range unit charged somehow by either chaff or something sturdy first, but that might not be possible with ranged units sitting just behind an anvil.

Didnt we get told that units cant have multiple Command Abilities on them during the same phase, so its either Unleash Hell or Redeploy, not both.

[Greybeard86]

7 hours ago, sandlemad said:

There's something there alright and that's basically what I'm getting at, that while a shift to hero/monster/centrepieces as the movers and shakers of any AoS force can be presented as a means of lowering barriers to entry, in practice it's not going to make a significant difference and may often be more expensive (just as WHU and Warcy and such have become significantly more expensive in the last two years, corroding their potential as affordable entry points).

Another angle here could be that a shift to hero/monster/centrepieces being more important could be a way of making armies more diverse and so more appealing to buy. Possibly GW wants the rules to support a model where a new players buys a bit of this and a bit of that rather than being told 'ok, you need to buy six to eight boxes of the exact same basic infantry dudes to have a viable force', which does make people catch their breath and makes for an intimidatingly boring army building experience.

Well put, as much as there's a hundred and one things to justly and harshly criticise GW for, 'standard' game size inertia isn't one of them. That consistent attitude of "strict matched play at 2000 points is the only real way to play", expressed consciously or unconsciously, goes back years in WHFB and 40k (though there it was 1500pts for a long time). This comes largely from inertia in the player community and sometimes manifests as real hostility to attempts to do things differently, whether from other players or even GW themselves.

I think you are absolutely right. Current army building can be atrocious. Buying box after box of the same is something I can’t personally do. I think many players probably feel the same, specially new players.

let’s see if the new edition truly changes that.

[Nadure]

I'm thinking about starting the game and looking at Fyreslayers. Figure I'm gonna have to buy a lot of the same thing no matter what.

[Envyus]

Should note that redeploy and Unleash Hell can’t be used together. At least on the same unit.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Envyus

[KingBrodd]

8 hours ago, Nadure said:

I'm thinking about starting the game and looking at Fyreslayers. Figure I'm gonna have to buy a lot of the same thing no matter what.

Hopefully Fyreslayers get some reinforcements this Edition!!

[Greybeard86]

27 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

Hopefully Fyreslayers get some reinforcements this Edition!!

Preach! Though I thought the consensus was that they would get souped?

[King Under the Mountain]

1 minute ago, Greybeard86 said:

Preach! Though I thought the consensus was that they would get souped?

Maybe the general consensus but there's a few hold-outs like me who arn't giving up hope. 

[FireAbend]

Would be interesting if we see new stuff from the upcoming WHU season for older armies again and better rules for the warbands.

 

maybe in Aos3 they play more important roles in the smaller army context.