The Rumour Thread

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 hours ago, herohammer said:

My guess is 180 for the new fat men assuming that there is a general point increase in third edition in line with Soulblight and Slaanesh points and in keeping with the latest edition of 40K.

Given 3 attacks and damage 2 they fight about the same as a small-based unit of 10 guys with a 2 attacks 3+/3+/-1/1 profile. Those guys usually come in at 140 or so. I could see the 2+ save putting these guys a little higher. So my prediction would be 160 +/-20.

[Tiberius501]

Seeing the Annihilators’ stats, I’m thinking this for the x-bow Orruks as my guess:

2W, 4+ saves. 
1 shot, 2 if they stand still, of 3+/3+, -2, 2, and do 2 mortal wounds on 6’s to hit instead of normal dmg.

Maybe some rule for ambushing or being harder to hit while in cover or something. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Tiberius501

[Third]

2 hours ago, Doko said:

 They gonna cost 140\150 or they gonna be useless

Happy that you, to my knowledge, are not in charge of deciding point values for this game 👍

[zilberfrid]

9 hours ago, Maogrim said:

And, for those who think I'm imagining things, I'd like to remind you of this guy, Ghazak Khan, who is a Hobgoblin from the olden days:

With his shield that way, I wonder how many people see it as a waiter's plate (forgot the term).

Add a bottle of wine, two glasses and a towel across the arm, and you have the angriest and fastest sommelier. The guests even get to pet the pupper when he arrives!

EDIT: The heads are of doordashers. It makes repeat offense a lot less likely.

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by zilberfrid

[Hypno]

34 minutes ago, Tiberius501 said:

Seeing the Annihilators’ stats, I’m thinking this for the x-bow Orruks as my guess:

2W, 4+ saves. 
1 shot, 2 if they stand still, of 3+/3+, -2, 2, and do 2 mortal wounds on 6’s to hit instead of normal dmg.

Maybe some rule for ambushing or being harder to hit while in cover or something. 

I’m predicting 5+ saves for the new orruks all round on the troops, more armour than bonesplittas less than Ironjawz, +1 in combat/vs shooting for the shield boys, 6s do mortals on everything as they all have poison coated weapons 

[Yoid]

People that say they should cost 150pts. That is insane.

As pointed by many, these dudes fight like an elite unit already (10 attacks 3+/3+ -1 2Damage is the equivalent of 20 attacks 3+/3+ -1 rend 1 Damage. Don't forgot they got very elite stats, is not like they hit and wounds on 4+ or have no rend or have 1 damage) They got 9 wounds, yeah, close to the regular 10 wounds  of the base unit (wich usually go by 100-120pts having a 4+ save) They got 1 wound less, but a 2+ save. Regular dudes suffer 1 of each 2 wounds (2 out of 3 if rended). This guys suffer 1 of each 6 wounds (1 out of 3 if rended). That is the equivalent of having a lor more wounds, and that should not be for free in points either.

Yes, we are talking about a 150-180 pts units... without the mortal wounds.

The mortal wounds i refered for free because they average on dealing them. Is not like a single dice roll on a 4+.

They deal 1-2 MW on average to multiple units arounde them when descendind. If they cost 150 pts you could fill a list with them and effectively eliminate the entire army of your opponent just by droppin without even playing the game.

They deal 3-4 MW on the charge on average. That alone cover the combat profile of many 100pts units, without taking in consideration these guys have a combat profile of an elite 140 pts unit later.

If they succeed in the drop and charge shenanigans they deal 5-7 MW to the unit they charge plus 1-2 MW to other unit nearby. We are talking about 6-9 MW without even fighting. That instant damage alone should cost a lot of points.

They deal an average of 5-6 damage with their combat profile to a 4+ save.

You need 54 damage to kill them on average, or 324 damage to kill them if they somehow reroll ones (maybe a command that the champion can self issue). If you got rend -1 you need 27 damage. At -2 we are talking about 18 damage and start feeling obtainable.

Their damage outpot when doing a regular charge is 8-10 wounds, this is a solid 180-200 pts in some armies.

Their damage output if they do the full combo is  10-13 and 1-2 extra MW to a second unit for a total of 11-15 damage.

The only argument that I feel would be valid is that they are slow. Yes, they are slow and weak to MW. Otherwise they would be unbeatable. You cannot make a unit cheap just because it have one weakness, you still got to count full points of his other features. If they are pointed too cheap people are gonna buy these guys as if they were endless spells that cannot be unbind attached to bodies than can capture objetives and obliterate the battlefield.

If they arent costed between 200 and 300 pts, they are gonna be a big balance problem. The new evocators when evocators were a living nightmare if you remember that time.

Edit: They reroll charge rolls when dropin, so the combo is even more reliable.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Yoid

[JackStreicher]

The Annihalators are a hard one. Maybe they'll indeed have the initial Evocator points-tag of 200? seems kind of plausible. Yet it will surely be points +5 because reasons XD


Edit: I am hoping they added the 5 point increments because one can now add a number of Models to a unit instead of larger increments. This theory might fall apart quickly though

Edited June 7, 2021 by JackStreicher

[PrimeElectrid]

8 minutes ago, Yoid said:

People that say they should cost 150pts. That is insane.

As pointed by many, these dudes fight like an elite unit already (10 attacks 3+/3+ -1 2Damage is the equivalent of 20 attacks 3+/3+ -1 rend 1 Damage. Don't forgot they got very elite stats, is not like they hit and wounds on 4+ or have no rend or have 1 damage) They got 9 wounds, yeah, close to the regular 10 wounds  of the base unit (wich usually go by 100-120pts having a 4+ save) They got 1 wound less, but a 2+ save. Regular dudes suffer 1 of each 2 wounds (2 out of 3 if rended). This guys suffer 1 of each 6 wounds (1 out of 3 if rended). That is the equivalent of having a lor more wounds, and that should not be for free in points either.

Yes, we are talking about a 150-180 pts units... without the mortal wounds.

The mortal wounds i refered for free because they average on dealing them. Is not like a single dice roll on a 4+.

They deal 1-2 MW on average to multiple units arounde them when descendind. If they cost 150 pts you could fill a list with them and effectively eliminate the entire army of your opponent just by droppin without even playing the game.

They deal 3-4 MW on the charge on average. That alone cover the combat profile of many 100pts units, without taking in consideration these guys have a combat profile of an elite 140 pts unit later.

If they succeed in the drop and charge shenanigans they deal 5-7 MW to the unit they charge plus 1-2 MW to other unit nearby. We are talking about 6-9 MW without even fighting. That instant damage alone should cost a lot of points.

They deal an average of 5-6 damage with their combat profile to a 4+ save.

You need 54 damage to kill them on average, or 324 damage to kill them if they somehow reroll ones (maybe a command that the champion can self issue). If you got rend -1 you need 27 damage. At -2 we are talking about 18 damage and start feeling obtainable.

Their damage outpot when doing a regular charge is 8-10 wounds, this is a solid 180-200 pts in some armies.

Their damage output if they do the full combo is  10-13 and 1-2 extra MW to a second unit for a total of 11-15 damage.

The only argument that I feel would be valid is that they are slow. Yes, they are slow and weak to MW. Otherwise they would be unbeatable. You cannot make a unit cheap just because it have one weakness, you still got to count full points of his other features. If they are pointed too cheap people are gonna buy these guys as if they were endless spells that cannot be unbind attached to bodies than can capture objetives and obliterate the battlefield.

If they arent costed between 200 and 300 pts, they are gonna be a big balance problem. The new evocators when evocators were a living nightmare if you remember that time.

 

Functionally, Evocators are exactly the same as this “living nightmare.” The only thing that changes is a) people learned to screen b) TOs keep choosing Total Commitment 3) fights first/last came out. 
 

You also continue to overlook that a 9” charge is a low likelihood and still only 47% with a reroll. 
 

Nobody is bringing a 300 point unit to watch them come down where they can only tag a screen within 10”, fail the 3+, then fail the charge, and die to a couple of spells. 

[Yoid]

15 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Functionally, Evocators are exactly the same as this “living nightmare.” The only thing that changes is a) people learned to screen b) TOs keep choosing Total Commitment 3) fights first/last came out. 
 

You also continue to overlook that a 9” charge is a low likelihood and still only 47% with a reroll. 
 

Nobody is bringing a 300 point unit to watch them come down where they can only tag a screen within 10”, fail the 3+, then fail the charge, and die to a couple of spells. 

Evocators need to fight to deal the damage. These guys are still an instant button to deal MW anywhere on the battlefield as needed.

I already pointed that their average damage is good even when not dropping (a regular charge like in moving and charging)

If they cost 150 or even 180 pts, I can tell you they gonna do, that is why it need to cost 200+ points. 300 may be too costly, but you are taking an extreme value of the range I given you, you could have said 200 instead, you simply choosed to not do so.

If they are too cheap you can bring enough of them to erase the screen simply by the drop damage, so screens won't be a problem. That is one of the many reasons you cannot point them too cheap.

Again, them having a wekness (can be screen) wich is true for a lot of units in the game cannot be a excuse to give it free damage and survivability. Otherwise you need to give free damage and survivability to every army, not just Stormcast. Because then we got a balance issue. And we are talking about balance issues/imbalance here. That top 5% players dont pick them for tourneys because there are better options dosn't mean they are automatically balanced. In fact that would mean bad internal balance within the battletome that need to be toned down by making the other units more costly, not this one more cheap, or the full battletome become more powerful than many other armies again.

I think they are gonna be cheaper than they should because Stormcast in Starter Box usually are, so im not gonna be surprised if they cost 150 or 180 at the end. But in no world that is balanced and fair for the other armies that need to pay way more points for similar performing units.

Edit: And Evocators still cost 210 points. That could be a good point cost for Annihilators too.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Yoid

[PrimeElectrid]

It’s not “anywhere on the battlefield”. It’s units within 10” (trivial to mitigate) and making a 9” charge (47%). Their only value is in multiple units which if priced over 200 is not feasible. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

20 minutes ago, Yoid said:

People that say they should cost 150pts. That is insane.

So here's where I am coming from:

From their offensive stats, Annihilators are pretty much exactly Cities of Sigmar Black Guard, which are 130.

Black Guard have basically no abilities worth talking about, so I'll go from there as a base line. Annihilators get once-a-game mortals, reroll charges from deepstrike and (decaying) impact hits. I don't think that's worth more than 20 points. So far so good.

Then you have to ask yourself how many points a 2+ save is worth compared to a 4+. No doubt: 2+ is a lot better. About three times as good if we go by how many extra hits you can take. But that can't mean the unit is literally three times as expensive overall, especially if +1 to saves is easier to come by next edition.

I would put the value of a 2+ save at no more than 50 points in this case. It's definitely a strong attribute to have and it will make it near impossible for some units to break Annihilators, but for lists with a decent mortal wound output, they won't be that much of a problem. If this unit could reliably capture and hold objectives, maybe things would be different. But with only 3 bodies, I think that diminishes the value of being super tanky.

So that gives me an upper bound of ~200 points for these guys. Which I think is fair. I'd probably want to see them lower if Stormcast keep their "no allegiance abilities" allegiance abilities.

[Yoid]

3 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

It’s not “anywhere on the battlefield”. It’s units within 10” (trivial to mitigate) and making a 9” charge (47%). Their only value is in multiple units which if priced over 200 is not feasible. 

By anywhere on the battlefield I mean they dont have to move like regular troops and charge. They deal AOE mortal wounds when dropin. Remember, not to a single unit, to multiples. They fall like comets or endless spells. Even if they don't charge/fail the charge do MW to multiple units. Sometimes they will fail, but more often than not they will hit (is a 3+ after all).

Edited June 7, 2021 by Yoid

[Beliman]

@Yoid

I think that we need to compare them to other Elite SCE units (same allegiance and synergies):

Retributors (190p) do a bit less dmg output than a Scion+Charge Anihilators, but they don't need to even charge to always do their dmg. They have 15 wounds (vs 9 wounds from Anihilators) with a 4+ saves vs the rocking 2+saves.
Mortal wounds: Retributors scale better than Anihilators and both units degrade with models lost. Retributors start losing Starsouls maces after losing 9 wounds and Anihilators lose some mw after they lose 3 wounds.
Capturing objectives: 5 models vs 3 models

Evocators (210p) do more dmg than Anihilators (no matter what) and they don't need any conditional (succeful charging), and are the same 15 wounds vs 9 wounds (same as Retributors). Again, their save is just 4+  versus awesome 2+saves of Anihilators, but their gimmick is that they are Wizards (with some synergies with other units).
Mortal wounds: Evocators mw output scales better than Anihilators but they start degrading mw with every model lost (3 wounds).
Capturing objectives: 5 models vs 3 models

Edited June 7, 2021 by Beliman

[PrimeElectrid]

31 minutes ago, Yoid said:

By anywhere on theb attlefield I mean they dont have to move like regular troops and charge. They deal AOE mortal wounds when dropin. Remember, not to a single unit, to multiples. They fall like comets or endless spells. Even if they don't charge/fail the charge do MW to multiple units. Sometimes they will fail, but more often than not they will hit (is a 3+ after all).

Yes, so on average each unit will do 2MW to 2  out of 3 units within 10”. That’s assuming you position in such a way to let them get within 10” of 3 units. If you screen properly they might just get within 10” of 2, or even 1, because they have to drop 9” away.

4 dead skinks/rats/zombies/insert cheap screen of choice *is not a big deal.*

If you’re deploying in a way that Annihilators can get within 10” of multiple key pieces then that’s on you.

Edit: not to mention the rumoured charge reaction to retreat, making that 9” charge much harder.

Edited June 7, 2021 by PrimeElectrid

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, Yoid said:

By anywhere on the battlefield I mean they dont have to move like regular troops and charge. They deal AOE mortal wounds when dropin. Remember, not to a single unit, to multiples. They fall like comets or endless spells. Even if they don't charge/fail the charge do MW to multiple units. Sometimes they will fail, but more often than not they will hit (is a 3+ after all).

I don't think their mortal wound drop is super scary, since it's just a once-a-game 3+, 1d3 mortals. It's a bubble, sure, but it's still just one mortal per unit you tag with it on average. You likely won't be sniping juicy high saves, low wounds targets with it.

[Beliman]

29 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Edit: I am hoping they added the 5 point increments because one can now add a number of Models to a unit instead of larger increments. This theory might fall apart quickly though

That's a good points, hope you are right!

[KingBrodd]

With Broken Realms ended now are we to assume the BR short stories are finished as well? 

[Rachmani]

On 6/5/2021 at 11:43 PM, Svalack said:

if you have a local independant i would ask for a copy as soon as next week maybe, they will usually be asked for stock numbers this Monday or the week later(its usually the monday before preorder date but varies on the bigger 2 week releases). I imagine it will sellout quickly and probably be a mess with websites crashing. Though it is sometimes hard to predict AoS popularity vs 40k.

That's what I do. I've been buy from the same vendor for like 15 years now. I even had pauses in between (but still bought my board games there). So now, when I want something, he'll reserve a copy for me. 
I know some people just don't have a vendor near them and that sucks. But everyone else should really invest in a good relationship with someone local. It saves you so much hassle. That's something no online shop can do for you. At least none I know of.

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, Yoid said:

If they arent costed between 200 and 300 pts, they are gonna be a big balance problem.

So you are suggesting between 66 and 100 (!) point per 3 wound model. Oook

Edited June 7, 2021 by Marcvs

[zilberfrid]

17 minutes ago, Rachmani said:

That's what I do. I've been buy from the same vendor for like 15 years now. I even had pauses in between (but still bought my board games there). So now, when I want something, he'll reserve a copy for me. 
I know some people just don't have a vendor near them and that sucks. But everyone else should really invest in a good relationship with someone local. It saves you so much hassle. That's something no online shop can do for you. At least none I know of.

I agree to some extent.

I frequented a local store that, by neccessity (it has really narrow corridors), became online the last year, and they do inform me of stuff they have that might interest me, like starting to stock Vallejo instead of Army Painter (I don't really like AP, and I have loaned the manager a few different Vallejo paints so they could feel the difference for themselves) and mailing me when something I previously wanted came back in stock.

But that is more a local shop doing the best they can as an online shop in a sucky situation.

[Rachmani]

I expect 180 points for the three of them. Slaangors (albeit overpriced) cost 140 points and have - to my knowledge - not dropped in price as of yet. If they are a harbinger of the point costs to come, 180 sounds reasonable (meaning well priced).

[Rachmani]

3 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I agree to some extent.

I frequented a local store that, by neccessity (it has really narrow corridors), became online the last year, and they do inform me of stuff they have that might interest me, like starting to stock Vallejo instead of Army Painter (I don't really like AP, and I have loaned the manager a few different Vallejo paints so they could feel the difference for themselves) and mailing me when something I previously wanted came back in stock.

But that is more a local shop doing the best they can as an online shop in a sucky situation.

To me it's about building a relationship with your store owner(s). 

Ofc last year was different, but let's say you frequent a shop for a year or two, buy stuff, talk to the people there, maybe play games there (assuming they have a gaming room). You'll form a more personal relationship just by talking to people and spending time there. Very often the store owners are gamers themselves. Maybe you start playing with (against) them. 

And with minimal effort (that's fun and part of what makes the hobby great anyway) you have new acquaintances maybe even friends. And that's where they'll treat you differently. Why? Because you did so, too. And because it's in their self interest, too.

Online shops, without any disrespect, can't do that for you. Maybe there are some, that recognize you when you buy regularly and a lot (or write the nicest emails) but on a general basis, how could they? They've never even seen your face.

[zilberfrid]

5 minutes ago, Rachmani said:

To me it's about building a relationship with your store owner(s). 

Ofc last year was different, but let's say you frequent a shop for a year or two, buy stuff, talk to the people there, maybe play games there (assuming they have a gaming room). You'll form a more personal relationship just by talking to people and spending time there. Very often the store owners are gamers themselves. Maybe you start playing with (against) them. 

And with minimal effort (that's fun and part of what makes the hobby great anyway) you have new acquaintances maybe even friends. And that's where they'll treat you differently. Why? Because you did so, too. And because it's in their self interest, too.

Online shops, without any disrespect, can't do that for you. Maybe there are some, that recognize you when you buy regularly and a lot (or write the nicest emails) but on a general basis, how could they? They've never even seen your face.

I agree mostly. If you know the owners of the online store personally, this changes of course, but that's not likely in most cases (online+physical stores would be the exception).

[hoonked]

1 hour ago, Yoid said:

They deal AOE mortal wounds when dropin. Remember, not to a single unit, to multiples. They fall like comets or endless spells.

I mean, in most games it will be hard to hit more than one unit when dropping. The thing is, their AOE range is 10", but they have to drop 9" from enemies, that means that you're going to hit just one inch of enemy lines... which is not a lot and if the opponent puts on any screen you are not going to hit anything interesting. (And even then, you have 1/3 chance of not doing anything)

And the other thing: once these guys drop, you still have to charge 9". Sure, they reroll their charges, but other than that, stormcasts currently have only one good charge buff (Gavriel - a named hero).

I mean, these guys are strong and have a fancy 2+ save, but I don't think they are THAT broken.

Edited June 7, 2021 by hoonked

[Marcvs]

4 minutes ago, hoonked said:

And the thing: once these guys drop, you still have to charge 9". Sure, they reroll their charges, but other than that, stormcasts currently have only one good charge buff (Gavriel - a named hero).

Also, doing mortal wounds coming down will often make that a 10"+ charge, if your opponent removes the models closer to you (as they should)

Edited June 7, 2021 by Marcvs