The Rumour Thread

[PJetski]

2 minutes ago, Chikout said:

No sales data but there have been two different polls by a user on tga and by Warhammer weekly that ranked fyreslayers as the least popular faction. They are also one of the least represented factions in competitive play despite having very strong rules. I've no idea what the threshold for canned is. Historically it's something gw has been very reluctant to do.

These polls are of a significant sample size such that they could be considered representative of global popularity...?

Even if it somehow were the case, GW cares about revenue and not popularity (however you define that nebulous term).

A handful of people voting in a forum is in no way indicative of any current faction not selling enough to justify being removed from the range.

 

[Jagged Red Lines]

I think my biggest problem with stormcast is the obscene range bloat. They may not have had a major release in three years, but in terms of volumes of kits, they're still possibly the biggest faction in the game.

Part of the issue too is that much of their range is redundant. Why take liberators when you can take sequitors? 

Why take palladors/fulminators/concussors/ desolators/tempestors when you can take evocators on dracolines?

Coupled with that you've got an absurd number of generic characters:

Knight heraldor, vexilor, questor, azyros. Lord ordinator, celestant, exorcist, castellant, aquilor, arcanum, veritant.

Plus all the dozens of named characters that have come out as limited releases.

And yet every edition its 'lets expand on the Stormcast range' and add even more cavalry/battleline/shooting troops that serve the same in-game role as the old stuff, but do it better.

That book desperately needs an overhaul, rather than more rules bloat. Make EVERY SINGLE UNIT equally viable in the book. That would excite me a lot more than just more stormcast.

 

[Carnelian]

1 hour ago, Aeryenn said:

I agree that they should step away from some factions and return to Fyreslayers, Sylvaneth, Ironjawz etc but PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE don't ever again merge any factions. It's basically a death sentence if we look at what happen to them. Take skaven. One of the most iconic Warhammer armies of all time. What did they receive after merging them? One model was it? What happened to Ironjawz? No new models. Cities? Ok, it's a bit different with them but it was one unit of witch hunters, correct? Basically dead in terms of new releases. If they do something similar let's say to Fyreslayers and all Dwarfs that's basically it. It should be called a crime against humanity. Develop factions on their OWN. It takes nothing more than goodwill. I can think of like 5 new sculpts for Ironjawz right away. Same with Fyreslayers. DON'T KILL CONCEPTS by merging them into armies with no real theme.

"Crime against humanity" might be a slight, teeny-weeny, exaggeration.

Now not releasing any follow up to the Excelsior Warpriest - that's a crime against humanity!

[PJetski]

3 minutes ago, Jagged Red Lines said:

Part of the issue too is that much of their range is redundant. Why take liberators when you can take sequitors? 

Why take palladors/fulminators/concussors/ desolators/tempestors when you can take evocators on dracolines?

Coupled with that you've got an absurd number of generic characters:

Knight heraldor, vexilor, questor, azyros. Lord ordinator, celestant, exorcist, castellant, aquilor, arcanum, veritant.

Plus all the dozens of named characters that have come out as limited releases.

And yet every edition its 'lets expand on the Stormcast range' and add even more cavalry/battleline/shooting troops that serve the same in-game role as the old stuff, but do it better.

That book desperately needs an overhaul, rather than more rules bloat. Make EVERY SINGLE UNIT equally viable in the book. That would excite me a lot more than just more stormcast.

 

Funny enough you've got it backwards... There is zero reason to use Sequitors right now.

As you stated this is a rules issue and not a model range issue. Most Stormcast units are still using their 2015/16 warscrolls.

With a competently written battletome you could create niches for every unit. If two units are similar in stats you can differentiate them through allegiance abilities, battalions, exclusive hero buffs (eg. a Lord-Arcanum buffs Evocators while a Lord-Celestant buffs Paladins), etc. There are enough layers of rules that you can give two units with identical stats totally different roles.

[Jagged Red Lines]

4 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Funny enough you've got it backwards... There is zero reason to use Sequitors right now.

As you stated this is a rules issue and not a model range issue. Most Stormcast units are still using their 2015/16 warscrolls.

With a competently written battletome you could create niches for every unit. If two units are similar in stats you can differentiate them through allegiance abilities, battalions, exclusive hero buffs (eg. a Lord-Arcanum buffs Evocators while a Lord-Celestant buffs Paladins), etc. There are enough layers of rules that you can give two units with identical stats totally different roles.

Totally agree, it's a rules issue. But it becomes increasingly difficult for designers to create internal balance in a book, the bigger it gets. 

If GW open a new chamber and suddenly there are another 5-10 warscrolls in the book, that makes an already tough job even harder. 

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Aeryenn said:

I agree that they should step away from some factions and return to Fyreslayers, Sylvaneth, Ironjawz etc but PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE don't ever again merge any factions. It's basically a death sentence if we look at what happen to them. Take skaven. One of the most iconic Warhammer armies of all time. What did they receive after merging them? One model was it? What happened to Ironjawz? No new models. Cities? Ok, it's a bit different with them but it was one unit of witch hunters, correct? Basically dead in terms of new releases. If they do something similar let's say to Fyreslayers and all Dwarfs that's basically it. It should be called a crime against humanity. Develop factions on their OWN. It takes nothing more than goodwill. I can think of like 5 new sculpts for Ironjawz right away. Same with Fyreslayers. DON'T KILL CONCEPTS by merging them into armies with no real theme.

Ironjawz not getting new models is very unlikely to be a direct result of them merging 'em with Bonesplitters... I actually believe they did that to push sales for Bonesplitters as nobody cared for them much. I'm sure they'll get more stuff though thankfully and it takes waaaaay too long for IJ to receive their second wave.

Many things got split up in AoS that used to be one force (e.g. Fyreslayers). I thought that was in some cases a strange decision. And merging them again - if done right - doesn't have to a bad thing either. I'd enjoy seeing fyreslayers along more classical dwarves (make them a bit more "fyre" based but still be clothed and more classic in looks) as long as they were visually connected enough to look good together and feel like an organic force. KO are too different though, so I wouldn't merge those with them.

I love the looks of Nighthaunt but they'd be fine as part of SB GL too. Exception would be the FEC which have a hilarious and truly inspired background. But also need a second wave desperately.

Despite loving what GW did with Gitz, I found it a bit sad to separate them from Orruks. I always liked the classic O&G armies personally. It would be like splitting up Skaven subfactions. I'd hate to see that.... would rather see them get a GIIIIGANTIC release and have too much stuff to chose from than say "Darknight Kill-Assassins" and 3 other small rat factions.

When it comes to CoS, I think they'd need a gigantic release as well - with them not just being almost exclusively humans anymore but a force out of lots of races. They would need unified design language tho. I certainly love what I've seen so far, too bad it's usually only in stuff like Warhammer Quest games...

So yeah, it all really depends on the case... and all of this is obviously just my opinion. 

[PJetski]

I would strongly prefer they update factions like Fyreslayers with new kits than merge them back into boring racial soup books.

5 minutes ago, Jagged Red Lines said:

Totally agree, it's a rules issue. But it becomes increasingly difficult for designers to create internal balance in a book, the bigger it gets. 

If GW open a new chamber and suddenly there are another 5-10 warscrolls in the book, that makes an already tough job even harder. 

They'll probably have to start designing sub-allegiance rules for each chamber, like they did with the Lumineth split between Vanari, Scinari, Alarith, and Hurakan. 

Certain Stormhosts could favour certain units - I could see Astral Templars leaning towards Vanguard Chamber units, or the Celestial Warbringers favouring Sacrosanct Chamber.

It's a challenge but it's not impossible. If they can write so many rules for Space Marines they can definitely do it for any army in AOS. 

Edited May 5, 2021 by PJetski

[Clan's Cynic]

At risk of sounding like a broken record on this, the lack of Fyreslayer/Ironjawz/Idoneth releases is probably because they had no future plans to expand the ranges prior to their release, due to the original plan of every AoS army being a limited time release they'd replace with something else. Even though GW scrapped this plan, it'd still mean there's four years worth of 'design team to shop floor' they need to go through and AoS is still only five years old.

Late 2021/2022 for new FS/IJZ/IDK fits the timetable about right for this. Endless Spells/Terrain are probably excluded because they're Made-In-China anyway and Underworlds is it's own separate thing.

I'm just theorising though.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[Oneiros]

1 hour ago, RamsesIII said:

I'd argue that fyreslayers would need a turn in their aesthetic and premise to survive as their own army (nothing as extreme as combining two completely separate armies though). The slayer theme isn't bad, but I'd argue they're hurt a bit by the lack of variety in designs and colours.

I would like to see how Runemothers, Runedaughters and other female warriors and priestress in the lodge take part in the fight. That would be a new direction to take for the army and the race.

[Aeryenn]

26 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

At the same time, Cities have had rules supplements in three of the four Broken Realms books. Outside of straight new models, that makes them one of the most supported factions currently.

And models are all that matters for many people. The great problem with Fyreslayers is their lack of models. Theyu have great rules, that make them one of the best armies to play. Somebody above wrote that they had resigned from collecting this army because it's tiresome to paint dozens of same units. Even today I spoke with a friend if he will start an army for AoS (he's a 40k player). He said he likes Fyreslayers but doesn't want to paint 80 same models of naked dwarfs. I myself was THAT close to starting a Fyreslayer army. Guess why I didn't.

Cities have so many models, so many themes that's really, really hard to bring anything new to them, that will match them all or give them a clear direction. Much more difficult than to give Wave 2 to Ironjawz or Fyreslayers. I've written it's a bit different for them because in case of Cities merging was the only way of survival. It was either that or slowly disappearing by not getting new models, new rules etc. This way they can be still playable but I really doubt that we will see a wave of models for Cities. If for example there was a Witch Hunter faction in plans for AoS I think that GW would rather make it a seperate faction than give it a Cities keyword and allegiance. Cities is nothing in terms of design as are new AoS factions, with a strong theme and direction, that's why I don't think any new models will be released for them. Well, maybe one hero model once per AoS edition. That's all. For me, that's a death sentence for a faction. We don't have to agree on that.

35 minutes ago, Chikout said:

Correlation doesn't equal causation. I think a lot of people are a touch short-sighted when it comes to future releases. In terms of meaningful waves of minis the maximum they've done for AoS is 6 per year. That means a minimum of 4 years to do every faction. 

(...)

The combination of bonesplittas and ironjawz gave both factions and the combined big waagh a new lease of life on the competitive scene despite the lack of new minis.

Oh it's quite the opposite. I think of merging in a long run.

It's easy to merge to factions. Much worse is dividing them again. You give the example of Legions of Nagash. It's true to some point but it was a faction of old models, same as Cities are. With Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz it's different. Ironjawz was a completely new faction. Now, after merging Ironjawz players bought some Bonesplitterz models that might work well with Ironjawz under Big Waaagh. I think a lot of players did it just this way. Is it possible to divide Ironjawz and Bonesplitteraz again? Well, it is but GW would ****** hell of a lot of those customers that would now have to abandon half of their Big Waaagh models to form again either solo Ironjawz or solo Bonesplitterz factions. That's why I'd say we will never again see an Ironjawz Battletome, just Orruk Clan's all the way not to abandon those players who mixed their armies. It probably will affect releases for those factions. Ironjawz Wave 2? I don't think so. I'm afraid it will be one new hero once in a while that matches both armies. Believe me, I want to be wrong on this one.

22 minutes ago, ian0delond said:

Yeah sure because merging Moonclan, Spiderfang and Troggoth into Gloomspite Gitz was a death sentence for them too.

We have to wait to judge this one. So far no good news for Spiderfang fans except for rules update.

 

It's easier to just run some factions seperately in the long run. Can you imagine future releases for let's say Dwarf Clans faction that combines Fyreslayers, Kharadrons and Dispossessed? How would it look? One new naked hero for Fyreslayers, one new flying warmachine for Kharadrons and a unit of shielded dwarfs for Dispossessed? Or maybe a naked Fyreslayer with a jetpack and a shield unit? Great taste.

[Chikout]

18 minutes ago, PJetski said:

These polls are of a significant sample size such that they could be considered representative of global popularity...?

Even if it somehow were the case, GW cares about revenue and not popularity (however you define that nebulous term).

A handful of people voting in a forum is in no way indicative of any current faction not selling enough to justify being removed from the range.

 

Both polls had over a thousand responses so more than a handful but certainly not conclusive. Gw never releases numbers so we are all just speculating here. Personally I don’t think any army that currently has a book will be canned. We might see a faction dwindle away but given the 4 year timeframe I mentioned earlier I don’t think any faction is anywhere near that. That said, it wouldn’t surprise me if Fyreslayers got little support for the next two or three years given their seeming lack of popularity. 

To get back to rumours there is some speculation that the three missing factions from Broken realms might be the first up for new books in AoS3. So we could see an initial order of: 

Stormcast

New destruction

Skaven

Khorne 

Beasts of  Chaos. 

That would mean a lot of chaos books though.

[CommissarRotke]

6 hours ago, RamsesIII said:

BoC worship chaos itself... I don't think that makes them less chaos-aligned than the servants of the gods. They are, debatably, the most chaos-aligned faction by virtue of not just following the personal whims of a chaos god.

 

5 hours ago, 123lac said:

Yeah but fundamentally beasts of chaos are the wild version of chaos. The pure version in a sense. 

right but how different is that primal chaos from how Destruction forces operate? they're not building Chaos fortresses and converting mortals, they're horde/nomad based and prefer to raze everything and kill most mortals than corrupt and convert. their M.O is very Destruction because they worship primal Chaos. someone else also mentioned that AOS Beastmen didn't start as inherently chaos creatures like WHF, so it was a possibility to make them Destro

edit: there's 'conflicting' origins in AOS, sounds like at least one splinter of BOC could be Destro

Edited May 5, 2021 by CommissarRotke

[Bodric]

2 hours ago, Aidrox said:

I think the same and hopefully this will be the last edition to feature stormcast in the starter since they've now fought against every grand alliance. Having two different armies each time is just a breath of fresh air. Never played fantasy but always remember the high elf vs. Skaven box set which seemed so much more interesting 

It is perhaps worth considering the value of Stormcast beyond "poster boys" or whatever. They're an incredibly accessible faction for new painters - big, chunky shapes, no faces. The fact that they've got helmets makes them way less intimidating for new painters to have a go at, much like marines are. The starter sets for both AoS and 40K at the moment are focused on factions that are easy to get looking half-decent for newcomers. I wouldn't expect to see a Stormcast-free starter any time soon. That ease of painting is a big, big deal when it comes to introducing the hobby to new people.

[Nighthaunt Noob]

36 minutes ago, PJetski said:

These polls are of a significant sample size such that they could be considered representative of global popularity...?

Even if it somehow were the case, GW cares about revenue and not popularity (however you define that nebulous term).

A handful of people voting in a forum is in no way indicative of any current faction not selling enough to justify being removed from the range.

 

Absolutely. If I recall, the Warhammer Weekly poll had over 1000 respondents. If you were trying to poll the entire population of the USA, you'd only need ~500 respondents to be considered representative.

And to your point on Revenue, Fireslayers actually ranked at the bottom of 2 of their polls. The 1st was on aesthetics, and the 2nd was on "which armies do you play." If you're at the bottom on both those aspects, there's no way they're selling models.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Nighthaunt Noob

[PJetski]

1 minute ago, Nighthaunt Noob said:

Absolutely. If I recall, the Warhammer Weekly poll had over 1000 respondents. If you were trying to poll the entire population of the USA, you'd only need ~500 respondents to be considered representative.

If you think 500 respondents is inherently a representative sample of 300mil+ then you should consider taking a statistic analysis course

[CommissarRotke]

1 hour ago, RamsesIII said:

I'd argue that fyreslayers would need a turn in their aesthetic and premise to survive as their own army (nothing as extreme as combining two completely separate armies though). The slayer theme isn't bad, but I'd argue they're hurt a bit by the lack of variety in designs and colours

there's gotta be more lava creatures than the magmadroth that could be used in battle, the runic magic could create molten lava creatures or maybe even have some fyreslayers bound to a suit of lava armor. I agree they might be the most boxed-in faction in terms of design, but there's so many wild ideas in AOS I can't see Fyreslayers not getting at least one new kit

[Graywater]

7 minutes ago, PJetski said:

If you think 500 respondents is inherently a representative sample of 300mil+ then you should consider taking a statistic analysis course

funnily enough, Gallup polling is reported on nightly as fact, and that only polls 1000 people at a time... considering there aren't close to half of the US population as hobbyists, 500 isn't inconsistent with currently accepted reporting procedure. Not to saying your point doesn't stand though. 

[Aeryenn]

2 hours ago, Ratboy genius said:

In skaven's case, their factions were never meant to be split

I wrote it in a different forum but it's worth to mention it again.

Just think of the possibilities if each Clan had space to develop on its own.

Skyre as high tech faction, with rat mechs, walkers, cannons. Kharadrons shouldn't be the only advanced faction.

Moulder with all its mutations and numbers.

Eshin is difficult to develop but not impossible as well.

We had a take on Pestilens and I think it could work if given enough attention.

If Aelves can have a dozen factions, why can't Skaven have more than one?

Edited May 5, 2021 by Aeryenn

[baiardo]

3 minutes ago, Graywater said:

funnily enough, Gallup polling is reported on nightly as fact, and that only polls 1000 people at a time... considering there aren't close to half of the US population as hobbyists, 500 isn't inconsistent with currently accepted reporting procedure. Not to saying your point doesn't stand though. 

Probably depends what you want to know, agree that a pool with 500 or 1000 is good enough to have an idea on the less desiderabile faction in aos

[Ratboy genius]

1 minute ago, Aeryenn said:

 

If Aelves can have a dozen factions, why not Skaven?

Skaven can, but right now they're in need of a kit refresh, and quite badly. They'd need like 20 kits to bring them up to a modern standard, before expanding is thought about

[Overread]

Because  GW has practical limits. You can take any faction in AoS and instantly have one version of it for each different mortal realm (more or less). Then you can have a different version for each subfaction within the battletome then each subfaction in each mortal realm. Suddenly 1 army has enough forces to equal the entire current AoS model range in one go. 

 

Skaven were also not developed purely for AoS; they have a history and in that history they were 1 single army. They worked with that and were built around it. "Gaps" in one subgroup were filled by the others. Moulder didn't need a ranged siege weapon because it got the lightning cannon. 

There are also niches that don't work on their own, like Eshin. Assassin armies don't work because even in the lore they typically rely on a few key assassinations rather than a whole army of assassins. Even GW had to reign in and pull back on having Imperial Assassins as their own army in 40K. 

 

As a single battletome Skaven still have niche forces, but it more easily lets them work together as a single force when needed. 

 

GW could have done the same for Aelves, but they've chosen not too; however in the past the elves also had multiple armies any way. So we were already used to that concept, whilst Skaven was a single force. Perhaps in time who knows skaven could end up with more separate armies, but it doesn't seem like a direction GW wants to go with. 

[DeLewko]

Please lower your expectations for Saturday. We will probably get a vague short of what's to come and maybe a silhouette but not more. They have 2 months of releases for AoS n 40k already shown, Vamps for may and Kragnos in june. We won't see any new minis till june.

[PJetski]

Just now, DeLewko said:

Please lower your expectations for Saturday. We will probably get a vague short of what's to come and maybe a silhouette but not more. They have 2 months of releases for AoS n 40k already shown, Vamps for may and Kragnos in june. We won't see any new minis till june.

2 months of releases won't cover the 6+ months of delay they're currently struggling under. GW really likes to release new editions in the summer time so it's definitely possible they're going to go into turbo release mode for a few months to ensure AOS3 launches this summer.

This could be one of the reasons they axed the Cursed City expansions... Between Gravelords, Kragnos, and 3rd edition the release schedule is packed and something had to be cut.

Could go either way!

[SunStorm]

14 minutes ago, DeLewko said:

Please lower your expectations for Saturday. We will probably get a vague short of what's to come and maybe a silhouette but not more. They have 2 months of releases for AoS n 40k already shown, Vamps for may and Kragnos in june. We won't see any new minis till june.

This. I think the AoS preview on Monday, plus the stuff that had been previewed in the weeks before, like Kroak, Witchunters, etc was good. Anything else AoS is a bonus as far as I'm concerned. 

The amount of speculation and hype being built around an AoS 3.0 reveal is only going to lead to disappointment when Saturday turns out to be a new animation trailer and another new mobile game. 

[BaylorCorvette]

So what are thoughts on Warhammer releases? We do not know GWs release schedule exactly since they took the two week break. However it's pretty much certain Gravelords sometime this month since the end of the video on Monday said May 2021. I think in yesterdays 40k stream they said Admech later this month? So possibly Kragnos end of May or beginning / mid June?