Neil Arthur Hotep Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Aaranis said: Not going to slow down on the power creep are they ? What do you see as problematically powerful here? It's just a terrain piece that gives reroll casts within 12". Given that the army can already reroll casts through aether quartz, that's not especially valuable. Personally, I think any mechanic where you need to give up the mobility of one of your heroes to fully make use of it tends towards being bad rather than good. As far as I can tell, LRL do not currently have any heroes with command abilities that can be abused with this terrain piece either. Lumineth have a lot of strong rules, but I don't see it in this case. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 (edited) At this point we really need to talk about the LRL and it is not about Powerlevel: They have so many overdesigned rules which break multiple core rules at once. They stack a needles amount of special rules atop one another. They amplify the magic dominance issue AND grant free Range AND grant a free CP. The constant "ANDs" are making this army the crystalized essence of Negative Play Experience. Their rules lower the amount of playerinteractions one big factor of NPE. This is not about gaming power, this is about their design. I Hate playing them (or against them). They are the manifestation of an entire faction that is unfun. Why is the message of every rule they get that they can do everything AND everything best? Why does the Faction terrain grant three significant buffs? At this point I really don't want to see any more rules of the faction, I am done, it'S getting worse and worse and worse. What the hell is GW thinking? I've played against them 6 times so far and it was the most unfun experience I'Ve ever had in all of AoS. They lost 3 games and it is not about power. I refuse to play against this nonsense of an army that is taking the fun out of the game while turning it to a "look at what I can do: ALL OF IT" nonsense and I will ban them from any tournament (which are semi-competetive) in order for everyone having a good time not puting up with this. Edited March 25, 2021 by JackStreicher 5 7 1 11 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svalack Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 It also removes the identity of many armies/units and what makes them fun/unique to play if another army can do the one thing yours does, and gets a ton of other stuff ontop of that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Svalack said: It also removes the identity of many armies/units and what makes them fun/unique to play if another army can do the one thing yours does, and gets a ton of other stuff ontop of that. Among other reasons: Exactly. This is being pushed to such extremes that I, in fact, see it as a bigger issue. What if Soulblight Gravelords will be stuffed with NPE as well? No one will have a good time playing. They need to tone it down already, though it is already too late. Edited March 25, 2021 by JackStreicher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaylorCorvette Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 5 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: Among other reasons: Exactly. This is being pushed to such extremes that I, in fact, see it as a bigger issue. What if Soulblight Gravelords will be stuffed with NPE as well? No one will have a good time playing. They need to tone it down already, though it is already too late. I don't want Soulblight to be like LRL because I agree LRL is full of NPE. However I do not want Soulblight to be terrible either. My greatest fear is that they will be a knee ****** reaction to LRL rules and be underpowered. I hope I'm wrong though! 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doko Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 If they dont change nothing to the blood knight warscroll and we keep the +1 attack to vampires from any alegiance as blood legion i gonna be happy. I dont need better rules Oh the most important before rules,i hope the blood knight cost around 45\55 € more than that and it gonna be a problem for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleb Daark Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 32 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: This is not about gaming power, this is about their design. I Hate playing them (or against them). They are the manifestation of an entire faction that is unfun.Why is the message of every rule they get that they can do everything AND everything best? Why does the Faction terrain grant three significant buffs? High elves in 8th edition fantasy were exactly the same. There was one particular combo that could literally shred through anything and only lose a couple of models. Two handed weapons, hitting first, no running away, heavy armour save, then invulnerability save, and the ability to just have any magic just bounce off them, and anything they cast just got always cast and amplified with no ill effects. I can totally relate to this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talas Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 As an addition to the 3.0 rumors, Rob from The Honest Wargamer just said in their podcast that the new Stormcasts will be "Bretonnia" themed. 2 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojojojo101 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 It will depend on how you can place the terrain piece and how much the army wants to turtle up around it but unless I'm mistaken if it has a hero on it the whole battle it's essentially worth 10 command points, with no restriction. Just feels interesting comparing that to FEC's Charnel Throne which lets you use a command ability for free, but that ability can only be used once per game and you can't use it if your Ghoul King is mounted. I don't hate Lumineth, I don't actually dislike the vast majority of their rules, but having all this stuff in one army doesn't feel great. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaranis Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 39 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: What do you see as problematically powerful here? It's just a terrain piece that gives reroll casts within 12". Given that the army can already reroll casts through aether quartz, that's not especially valuable. Personally, I think any mechanic where you need to give up the mobility of one of your heroes to fully make use of it tends towards being bad rather than good. As far as I can tell, LRL do not currently have any heroes with command abilities that can be abused with this terrain piece either. Lumineth have a lot of strong rules, but I don't see it in this case. 10 free CPs per game is problematically powerful to me. Meanwhile as Legion of Grief we lost our cool 5+/5+ Aetherquartz Brooch build that allowed us to be competitive. They may not be the most OP crazy powerful army so far but they're shaping up to be like Space Marines in current 40k, they have everything and they do it better than you, and playing against them is a miserable experience. I don't want AoS to become like that. 4 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaylorCorvette Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 5 minutes ago, Doko said: If they dont change nothing to the blood knight warscroll and we keep the +1 attack to vampires from any alegiance as blood legion i gonna be happy. I dont need better rules Oh the most important before rules,i hope the blood knight cost around 45\55 € more than that and it gonna be a problem for me I do LOVE Blood Knights in Legion of Blood. Hopefully they keep a bloodline or sub allegiance like this. Maybe an ability where all "Soulblight" models get +1 to their attack characteristic, this sub allegiance would obviously be focused on Vampires instead of lots of Skeletons or Zombies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doko Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 Oh yes new lumineth rules..... A mix of: Fyreslayer forge that give a +1 to prayers---rerolls spells Fec one use in all the game of one comand--free one comand every turn Seraphon garrison scenary(and any low chance extras)--have garrison Again as allways all these rules from 3 diferent scenarys mixed and upgraded in one as every lumineth rules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogregut Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 I've never had a NPE due to a powerful army, no matter how many rules it has or how hot it is in the meta. My NPE (and I'm happy to say are few and far between) have always been down to players moaning how powerful an army is and how it can't be beaten and how it stole their girlfriend and replaced the milk in their cornflakes with a unsuitable replacement! I can't wait to face the Lumineth, to find a way to beat them and overcome the army. Bring it on!!! 14 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Aaranis said: 10 free CPs per game is problematically powerful to me. Meanwhile as Legion of Grief we lost our cool 5+/5+ Aetherquartz Brooch build that allowed us to be competitive. They may not be the most OP crazy powerful army so far but they're shaping up to be like Space Marines in current 40k, they have everything and they do it better than you, and playing against them is a miserable experience. I don't want AoS to become like that. While it looks like 10 free CP at first glance, they are CP that are only available to that hero. I think that mitigates their power a lot. For the generic command abilities you need to be within 6" of a terrain piece that can't move to benefit from this effect, which makes it hard to combo it with reroll charges or run 6", for example. So far, I also don't see a spamable command ability on any Lumineth warscroll (that could change, though). The strongest use I see at the moment is to reroll 1s to hit for a Sentinel unit parked nearby. I am sympathetic to the point that Lumineth seem to have a lot more rules than everyone else, though. Edited March 25, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herohammer Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 Can someone create a separate thread to complain about the existence of LRL? No one is actually discussing much else here and I think at least one mod has already issued a warning about it. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perturbato Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 I'm playing against a friend who has lumineth next sunday and is really fond of Aelves. I'm hoping not to be spitting on his minis because of NPE but he loves to play with maths too ... i will try to keep it happy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, herohammer said: Can someone create a separate thread to complain about the existence of LRL? No one is actually discussing much else here and I think at least one mod has already issued a warning about it. Perhaps it might be worth to think about why that is. The recent debate, caused by news, is actually pretty tame. So no reason to reign it in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 Can someone explain what "NPE" is in this context because otherwise it looks like there's 5 pages of people arguing about patent law in the rumour thread every time there's a Lumineth update. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasshpit Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 24 minutes ago, Talas said: As an addition to the 3.0 rumors, Rob from The Honest Wargamer just said in their podcast that the new Stormcasts will be "Bretonnia" themed. What if they're not stormcast and actually new humans like the two from cursed city. I could see where someone catching a glimpse could be mistaken. 😉 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svalack Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Urauloth said: Can someone explain what "NPE" is in this context because otherwise it looks like there's 5 pages of people arguing about patent law in the rumour thread every time there's a Lumineth update. Negative play experience, things like: having to spend 2 cp to use a command ability - shuts down some armies severely or atleast restricts how they normally function multiple rerolling unbinds/bonuses or autodispels etc. - shuts down peoples options and counterplay/finesse/strategy preventing a unit from taking any actions unless they roll high on a dice roll - again this can just lockout specific armies/lists and is frustrating if it is so luck dependent. These are a few that many consider unfun or unfair. Usually its 1 of these sort of abilitys given to only the most lore powerful/expensive units. E.g belakor, katakros but LRL just have a ton of this stuff baked into their core rules. The recent rule previews were seen as adding more. Edited March 25, 2021 by Svalack 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilberfrid Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, Urauloth said: Can someone explain what "NPE" is in this context because otherwise it looks like there's 5 pages of people arguing about patent law in the rumour thread every time there's a Lumineth update. Negative Play Experience. Many ways about it, but the ones most relevant are lack of interactivity (for example no counterplay or other interactivity, like Mortal Wounds) and not needing to abide by rules the other player is bound by. Another thing is systematically removing all options, with the amount of dispels on the table, increasing CP cost and outright removing the option for a unit to do anything. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverchosen Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 12 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: The strongest use I see at the moment is to reroll 1s to hit for a Sentinel unit parked nearby. Reroll ones to hit on nearby Vanari Bladelords in Perfect Strike form! Followed by a Teclis style Y-Pose! Why win with victory points when you can win with style points 😎 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilberfrid Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Vasshpit said: What if they're not stormcast and actually new humans like the two from cursed city. I could see where someone catching a glimpse could be mistaken. 😉 I do get the relation, but this feels more Empire related than Bretonnia, but that may just be my view. Though even that Empire relation isn't that strong. Though I'd love order humans that are not slaves to Sigmar. Edited March 25, 2021 by zilberfrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yukishiro1 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 Ah, just what LRL needed: more ways to dominate the magic phase, and more ways to increase the CP gap between themselves and their opponents! I'm glad GW is on this, it was a crippling weakness of the faction that its casting was so unreliable and easily countered. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosen_of_khaine Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, JackStreicher said: I've played against them 6 times so far and it was the most unfun experience I'Ve ever had in all of AoS. They lost 3 games and it is not about power. I refuse to play against this nonsense of an army that is taking the fun out of the game while turning it to a "look at what I can do: ALL OF IT" nonsense and I will ban them from any tournament (which are semi-competetive) in order for everyone having a good time not puting up with this. Things lumineth can't do that other factions can: Resurrect models, fight at the start of the combat phase, force a unit to fight last, teleport, fight twice in a turn, summon new units to the table, etc. There's loads of things that they cannot do that are often "uninteractive" that other armies can. Edited March 25, 2021 by chosen_of_khaine 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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