The Rumour Thread

[KriticalKhan]

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

I wasn't talking about the pig, clearly.

I'm also not just defending GW. I'm defending all producers who actually make things instead of just subsisting by taking table scraps from those who bothered to actually create something.

It would be like if someone produced a series of novels called "Activity of Big Chairs" that, gosh, really followed the plot of Game of Thrones but just changed the names of the characters and charged less for the books.  That's not "alternatives" or "cheapers options" or whatever. That's lazy and unearned.

Even derivative work is not as bad. It's not perfect, of course, to be derivative, but at least it's not just completely effortless profiting off of half-baked knockoffs.

As to how much money one company or the other is or isn't making ... not even remotely relevant.

 

GW miniatures are products first and "art" second. When you put a product on the market, it fills a very specific niche that some consumers cannot interact with. If the original producer does not provide a product to occupy other niches, competitors will. I cannot afford to spend 200 dollars on a single model. If someone offers an alternative at 1/4 of the price with a similar level of quality, which do you think I would buy? You can call them derivative knock offs all you want (and let's not kid ourselves, you'd be 100% right to do so) but at the end of the day I, and many others, can only afford one of those options.

This is a matter of business, nothing more.

[Neverchosen]

8 hours ago, KingBrodd said:

So with Faith and Damnation what about those 2? Are we thinking a Gravelords reveal? 

I think Damnation is very likely referencing Gravelords, but it really speaks to how little we know about them. Who is damned the vampires or their followers... likely both, as with all that follow Lord Skeleton Hat. 

I feel the Faith is likely going to be 40k related I would chance a guess, but anytime I mention anything about 40k I end up with heaps of egg on my face. However, I do think it is funny that for a game about battling Gods with followers of fanatical devotees the term Faith does not immediately bring to mind any AOS army. Daughters of Khaine are probably the most faith oriented army but there are many adjectives I would pick for them above faith...
Maybe fighting next to your literal God makes the concept of faith somewhat redundant? It is pretty easy to have faith when your patron god took your soul and forged a suit of golden and lightening for you to fight for eternity.
Ah, what the heck, I am guessing that Faith refers to Squats for all those who kept the faith alive for so many years

[Malakithe]

9 hours ago, Neverchosen said:

Any clues on the silhouettes? 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/13/a-new-warhammer-preview-online-airs-next-saturday/



I see Malerion Cold One Knight, Admech and Marvel's Hawkeye...

 

Left is Necromunda, mid is Skitarii, right is OBR archer

[Sleboda]

Certainly you can, and should, purchase whatever legal products you want. 

And yes, GW stuff is a product (that has artistic qualities much of the time). I'm not saying it's not. In fact, its status as art, a mode of transportation, a display, a microprocessor, a glazed bathtub tile, or anything else doesn't matter for my point.

It's a product. My contention is pretty basic, really. Simple, even.

If you put in the work (to keep the phrasing uncomplicated and general) and took the risk, it's irksome and (yes, I'll say it) just plain wrong for someone else to hop in afterward - after your work has succeeded and proven to be of value - and be rewarded for that.

In other words, if you want to produce something, do your own thing, with its own risks and rewards.

 

I'll end there. Anyone who would care to discuss further, feel free to PM.

[Ogregut]

1 minute ago, Malakithe said:

Left is Necromunda, mid is Skitarii, right is OBR archer

Yeah I was thinking a redemptionist for Necromuna, a ad mech and a Underworlds bone reaper. 

Im really liking the variety the AoS previews show, 40k has seemed to be just either marines, necrons, ad mech or sisters for the past year. 

[Neverchosen]

25 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Left is Necromunda, mid is Skitarii, right is OBR archer

I know very little about Necromunda* but that armour has such a distinctive fantasy look to me... but the 40k universe incorporates so many fantasy elements into its aesthetic that I would not be surprised if you were correct. Largely because that weapon seems strange and the possible mount is also confusing, hence my somewhat tongue in cheek prediction that it is a new Malerion coldone knight. To be honest the more I look at it the less I understand it... 🤨

*maybe I will throw my hat in the ring one day as some of the models are extremely dope.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Neverchosen

[Malakithe]

28 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

I know very little about Necromunda* but that armour has such a distinctive fantasy look to me... but the 40k universe incorporates so many fantasy elements into its aesthetic that I would not be surprised if you were correct. Largely because that weapon seems strange and the possible mount is also confusing, hence my somewhat tongue in cheek prediction that it is a new Malerion coldone knight. To be honest the more I look at it the less I understand it... 🤨

*maybe I will throw my hat in the ring one day as some of the models are extremely dope.

I saw a pic on fb that I now cant find that would suggest the left one is some kind of crazy necromunda thing. Ive been trying to find the pic but its lost in the madness that is my feed

[zilberfrid]

16 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

I know very little about Necromunda* but that armour has such a distinctive fantasy look to me... but the 40k universe incorporates so many fantasy elements into its aesthetic that I would not be surprised if you were correct. Largely because that weapon seems strange and the possible mount is also confusing, hence my somewhat tongue in cheek prediction that it is a new Malerion coldone knight. To be honest the more I look at it the less I understand it... 🤨

*maybe I will throw my hat in the ring one day as some of the models are extremely dope.

Necromunda has a 40k style predatory book structure, where it's expected to buy over €100 in books to play the game for a single faction, which is balanced badly even compared to 40k (according to its own players). A €230 "starter set" doesn't help either.

I'd take the models, and play another game with them. 

I already have several teams ready for Stargrave when that launches in April (will be joined by Sisters of Battle and Skitarii Rangers/Vanguard/whatever I can craft from that set), and the Escher catlizard things have doubled duty in our Pathfinder game.

The sets are very pretty and have a ton of parts, and with some kitbashing, you get quite close to the Forgeworld single models, or at least some of them.

Cawdor is also easily the easiest set for religious Freeguild gunner replacement.

[Neverchosen]

17 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Necromunda has a 40k style predatory book structure, where it's expected to buy over €100 in books to play the game for a single faction, which is balanced badly even compared to 40k (according to its own players). A €230 "starter set" doesn't help either.

I'd take the models, and play another game with them. 

I already have several teams ready for Stargrave when that launches in April (will be joined by Sisters of Battle and Skitarii Rangers/Vanguard/whatever I can craft from that set), and the Escher catlizard things have doubled duty in our Pathfinder game.

The sets are very pretty and have a ton of parts, and with some kitbashing, you get quite close to the Forgeworld single models, or at least some of them.

Cawdor is also easily the easiest set for religious Freeguild gunner replacement.

Thanks for the heads up... that is a lot of red flags and I am happy for the warning. 😅

I really love those particular models and have considered using it as the basis for a Darkoath Warqueen. 🤩

Edited March 14, 2021 by Neverchosen

[zilberfrid]

32 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

Thanks for the heads up... that is a lot of red flags and I am happy for the warning. 😅

I really love those particular models and have considered using it as the basis for a Darkoath Warqueen. 🤩

Don't let the rules keep you from the models!

There are brilliant designers on the Necromunda team, the variety you get while keeping believable dynamic poses is brilliant.

On the flipside, I purchased the Easy to build Stormcast Castigators to run as some sort of space marine, and they are a snip of the crossbow bow, headswap and a backpack away from fitting that perfectly. The Cawdor big crossbow looks a lot less modern than whatever these are using.

Edited March 14, 2021 by zilberfrid

[Austin]

5 hours ago, Sleboda said:

100% agreed, and an insightful expansion on my thought. Nobody is saying the folks who make these things are not talented in their own right. It's just such a shame when skills like that are applied to such an obvious bottom-feeding effort. 

We, as artists (which we all are as hobbyists to one degree or another), all copy things here and there. Cool paint schemes, color recipes, lore inspiration rather than writing our own, and so on. Some level of copying is very difficult to avoid.

The difference is the financial/business aspect. Someone else put in all the work and resources (time, money, team brainstorms, consistency checks, etc.) to produce a thing. It takes a lot to create something to sell. It takes risk. It could fail despite all the money spent too make it succeed. Heck, if folks have read my thoughts on the GW gargants, they know I really like them but abhor their price to the point where they are one of the very few models GW made that I wanted and yet refuse to buy. That said, they absolutely should charge whatever they want! They put in the work. They took the risk. They should set the terms and reap the potential reward.

Then some lazy, unoriginal idea-thief decides to simultaneously waste the skills of their team and take a reward they in no way whatsoever earned.

It's cheap. It's dishonest. It's morally and creatively bankrupt.

Reward those who put forth honest effort and innovation, not lazy hacks.

So. Yeah. That's my thinking on that.

 

 

Morally bankrupt for taking someone else's idea and making a cheaper version?

Does that apply to Kia? What about the bag of marshmallow cereal I bought instead of Lucky Charms?

I am glad other companies exist and they put pressure on GW.  Including companies that make knock-off giants and skeletons that live in the desert.

[Joseph Mackay]

7 hours ago, KriticalKhan said:

Oh no! Someone's providing alternatives and competition to another product! That's terrible... for some reason.

No. These sorts of companies only exist because of gw and their games/IP. Come up with your own thing instead of trying to piggyback off gws game

[zilberfrid]

With these, I would agree they are knockoffs. But people are sometimes quick to call something a knockoff.

I've seen people accusing Mantic of having a knockoff gargant, even though they are nothing alike and were sold before the gargants.

The giants are a knockoff, but the halfling bretonnians are an interesting take inspired by bretonnians instead of slavish copies.

I would also note that GW also does similar things. Tyrannids started as a Giger alien knockoff, and Skitarii Rangers are clearly inspired by Jawas.

Similarely, I am reimagining the LEGO medieval blacksmith in media that fit my miniatures better (wood, cardboard, foamcore and some 3d printed material). That isn't a knockoff, that is a new take on a certain design.

Edited March 14, 2021 by zilberfrid

[Nactigal]

Property rights is a complicated topic that isn't easily solved with our current capitalist society. GW does have a large reach and is able to do the heavy lifting to generate hype and desire for the product. That isn't nothing, but the people piggy backing on it aren't just recasting or scanning the models. They put time and effort into reimagining some concepts. This happens all the time in media and I'd argue we all benefit from more content.

Perhaps the problem is our society that doesnt allow people to reasonably build on other people's ideas while still giving back to the original creator. 

I don't have any good answers to this nuanced issue, but I don't think we should be so quick to call this person morally corrupt.

[Beliman]

My job is related to this kind of things and it's crazy how many holes are there to protect/register your own product. Doesn't matter how many labels you try to use, it's a three fronts war that every country has their own touch.

[Percivael]

I’d guess by this “gravely disappointed” pun that we will see a Soulblight Grave Lords reveal.

[rosa]

Uhm, nobody wants to talk about that fantastic OBR archer?

I imagine a whole AOS unit in a second wave... Awesome:) 😃😃😃

[Malakithe]

18 minutes ago, rosa said:

Uhm, nobody wants to talk about that fantastic OBR archer?

I imagine a whole AOS unit in a second wave... Awesome:) 😃😃😃

And yet poor Fyreslayers and Ironjawz, the first new factions of AoS, continue to get nothing

[RamsesIII]

Personally, I think that if GW fails to make a new product accessible to to their players (which to be fair, can't always be done especially with an army that relies on a few gigantic models) that's on them, other companies can and should capitalize on any gaps in the market because that's what companies are supposed to do. I personally prefer to buy GW's products because I like to maintain a uniform style for my miniatures, and thankfully I don't love Sons of Behemat so I'm not feeling tempted by the expensive models. But I don't think there's anything wrong with "knockoffs" (if they're good quality) in a hobby that isn't cheap, and has a tendency to get pricier at times (not always).

Besides, it's not like a mega gargant is... a very innovative concept. I'm not sure what sets them apart lorewise, but aesthetically, they're just particularly detailed giants that are extra big compared to previous versions. I don't doubt that those Colossals were motivated by Sons of Behemat release, but it's hard for me to see it so uninspired and lacking in artistic integrity when the thing it's based on is such a typical, tried and tested concept whose real risk comes from its implementation as a business decision in a tabletop game, not from its artistic design or concept. Maybe I'd be more inclined to agree if we were talking about one of the crazier Gloomspite Gitz models and not about the extra-big giants (which admittedly shine for the actual execution of the old idea, they look fantastic). Oh no, sorry, we're talking about gargants, completely different thing... but is it though?

So in the end I don't see it as something so terrible, not from the artists involved who as far as we know could be completely pleased with putting their own spin on various existing designs (a task which isn't lacking in dignity by any means, much less considering how many once innovative creatures are now staples of every fantasy world) or from whoever told them to work on that. It forces GW to stay competitive, and allows some people to get into the setting, game or painting/kitbash hobby even when their wallets wouldn't normally allow it. And someone picking up that non-GW model because they like that design better is perfectly valid too.

[Wraith]

31 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

And yet poor Fyreslayers and Ironjawz, the first new factions of AoS, continue to get nothing

To put a positive spin on it, collectors of those factions have received an abundance of nothing.  So they have plenty when you think about it that way.

[Skreech Verminking]

54 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

And yet poor Fyreslayers and Ironjawz, the first new factions of AoS, continue to get nothing

And yet the skaven, who have existed for eons, still aren’t getting their desperate model update 

[Souleater]

1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

And yet poor Fyreslayers and Ironjawz, the first new factions of AoS, continue to get nothing

They have already had WHU sets.

 

This isn't a second wave release for the main AoS game. 

 

*cough* Lumineth *cough* 😜

[MarkK]

4 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

No. These sorts of companies only exist because of gw and their games/IP. Come up with your own thing instead of trying to piggyback off gws game

How could someone take another person's idea and make money of it? They should be shut down! 😉

[drcrater]

Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think the Rumour Thread is exactly the place to talk about intellectual property.

[Clan's Cynic]

5 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

No. These sorts of companies only exist because of gw and their games/IP. Come up with your own thing instead of trying to piggyback off gws game

Giants and dragons aren't concepts original to GW and that includes things like Sea Giants and Giants-with-improvised-siege-weapons.

Hell, Mantic had a giant model roughly the size of the Mega Gargant (for £25) long before GW did. Clearly GW shouldn't try and piggy back off similar sized giant models and come up with their own scale /s.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Clan's Cynic