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 I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but everything in Destruction -for better or worst- is linked to GorkaMorka.  As destructive as an insectoid army could be, I don't see how the insectoid mind could be linked to a brawl-loving god like him. The little we know about the Silent Ones certainly doesn't mention anything about Old' Gork & Mork.

Edited by Jator
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1 minute ago, Jator said:

 I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but everything in Destruction -for better or worst- is linked to GorkaMorka.  As destructive as an insectoid army could be, I don't see how the insectoid mind could be linked to a brawl-loving god like him. The little we know about the Silent Ones certainly doesn't mention anuthing about Old' Gork & Mork.

It is the biggest flaw of AoS lore, two entire grand alliances each tied to a single god.

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4 hours ago, Still-young said:

The Idoneth warband is June, the last one of the season. I think that claw is a good bet to show up there. 

I cant wait to see this Warband, more so than the Ossiarchs and I'm dying to see them what with the Axe silhouette!!

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I would also be excited because Bug is my favourite Pokemon type. Gotta catch em all!

I. Bloody. Love. Bug. Pokemon. Would definitely end up being a Bug Catcher NPC haha

50 minutes ago, Jator said:

 I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but everything in Destruction -for better or worst- is linked to GorkaMorka.  As destructive as an insectoid army could be, I don't see how the insectoid mind could be linked to a brawl-loving god like him. The little we know about the Silent Ones certainly doesn't mention anything about Old' Gork & Mork.

I'm hoping they expand Destruction to other gods as well, not just those who want to fight but those who want to see civilisation crumble. Much like the Beasts of Chaos but instead of abandoned Chaos they are wanting things to return to nature, or a primordial state. 

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1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

It is the biggest flaw of AoS lore, two entire grand alliances each tied to a single god.

Since there’s so much hate here for poor Nagash controlling most death factions, I think it’s time to start a new trend against Gorkamorka and his control of destruction, Destruction can be much more than just green or fat people eating stuff!!!

 

obviously I’m joking, but give me insectoid army any day of the year, don’t care about the grand alliance

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17 minutes ago, alghero81 said:

Since there’s so much hate here for poor Nagash controlling most death factions, I think it’s time to start a new trend against Gorkamorka and his control of destruction, Destruction can be much more than just green or fat people eating stuff!!!

 

obviously I’m joking, but give me insectoid army any day of the year, don’t care about the grand alliance

You know, the whole gods thing works well with the capricious and often random & alien chaos gods....especially because they create internal conflict and are yet still very much in the background.... but when you take former humans, elfs or necromancers and turn them into gods, the whole concept becomes less of a godly entity and more of a superman... and thus quite boring, as they're still very mortal in core and character but lack the urgency. Yes, I know, the Greek/Roman gods were similar in that regard but we're not playing them, we're collecting armies dedicated to them. The God-Emperor was also more than a cool dude but rather an amalgation of souls fused into one being which explains why he acted aloof, alien and strange (and outright stupid/awkward when it came to his sons) often enough... 

Not saying Gorkamorka falls in these trappings (I do find it to be a tremendously non-descript figure though, so I hope they expand the character beyond "he's kunnin' and brutal and likes to smash things up good") but personally I do like it much more when it's about our armies and heroes (or villains) rather than the gods. So I really hope that the absolute rulership aspect in some armies and the absolute storytelling (e.g. it's always about Nagash, teclis, etc.) will stop and the focus will be back to to their champions. 

I do have the feeling however that we're slowly going in that direction anyways... I guess they thought the fight of gods in limitless worlds was the coolest possible scenario but they forgot that when it comes to storytelling we mostly care about characters we can relate to (hence big action blockbusters are often boring to watch) and thus want to see them succeed or fail... that's kinda difficult with a God-like protagonist. I like to remember the old story  of the sacking of Praag - all godly entities were there.... but in the background. and the drama was mortal.

So yeah, more Iliad than Dragonball Z! 

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2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

It is the biggest flaw of AoS lore, two entire grand alliances each tied to a single god.

Agreed. Death and Destruction need some more aligned but not devoted factions. Flesh Eater courts need Ushoran and possibly some more Bloodline sires to lead their respective vamps. Death in General could do with some other deities which highly annoy Nagash, and to some extent he will want to consume them, but for reason unknown (a wizard did it) Nagash cannot consume anymore gods and must learn to align himself. But his end goal will be to betray and them, whether these are new gods or Vampire, or sone other necromantic lords.

The chaos gods hate each other and even they can allign for their own just cause. 
 

Destruction needs a lot of work in this field, Sons of Behemat being a refreshing step away from Gorkamork being worshipped in a different form. Gloomspite also have some well thought out rationales of being connected albeit different to other greenskin’s. Contradicting my own argument, I’d really like to see a polar opposite to the Ironjawz - sneaky Gitz, Shaman’s, t hit and run cavalry and lots of archers - I feel wolf riders could fill this niche well and would be great way to AoS-ify Goblins and Hobgoblins. 

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2 hours ago, pixieproxy said:

This is in part why I would like Soulblight to at least be some sort of rebellion against Nagash.

One of the reason's I liked Flesh-Eater Courts (in addition to their unique fluff) is that they could easily be against Nagash as for him.

I hope their Soulblight cousins follow suit as well.  Vampire's are supposed to be scheming aristocrats, not mindless followers to a big skeleton. 

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Why do a fair few people keep  wanting death to be like chaos?

Not the grimdark parody of order but rather machiavellian scheming between superpower people with an aversion to sunlight?

The whole point of death is its inevitability and the singular focus on the twisted order thereof.

Bringing lets say "free will" into it, and making the death factions more autonomous, at the expense of Nagash omnipotent focus takes away the whole point of the faction.

Vampires should not have free will, maybe the illusion thereof?  But if they did, there would be no down side to death, vampirisms would for all intents and purposes be a blessing not a curse.

Being dead is being a puppet, they sacrificed their stringless existence for an everlasting one that comes with strings.

Nagash and his actual on the table, rules/model aside, from a narrative perspective death as a faction is fine as far as I am concerned.

Death should be dread, death should be inevitable, death should be singular order, of not quite the type you signed up for on your deathbed.

Nagash on the table top might take advantage out of becoming an avatar or aspect more than the big bad himself on the table though, as for as I am concerned his rules should be even better and he should cost 5000pts, to BE the true death god he is.

Edited by Dracan
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3 minutes ago, Dracan said:

Bringing lets say "free will" into it, and making the death factions more autonomous, at the expense of Nagash omnipotent focus takes away the whole point of the faction.

Vampires should not have free will, maybe the illusion thereof?  But if they did, there would be no down side to death. vampirisms would for all extents and purposes be a blessing not a curse.

Being dead is being a puppet, they sacrificed their springless existence for an everlasting one that comes with strings.

All this is not incompatible with fracturing GA:Death a little bit more. In undeath you're still a puppet, it just changes whose puppet you are

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3 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

It is the biggest flaw of AoS lore, two entire grand alliances each tied to a single god.

I actually like that Death is Nagash's all powerful domain. It provides thematic difference to the constantly bickering and in-fighting of the pseudo-Allegiances that make up Order and Chaos. I don't really see what we gain from giving Death and Destruction the kind of petty bickering and infighting we see in Chaos and Order.

We can use Nagash's totalitarian control and Gorkamorka's more multifaceted approach to being a God to tell different types of stories, from those we can tell with the uneasy alliances of Chaos and Order.

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When half the point of Warhammer's lore is to encourage you to make /your dudes/, it feels stifling and weird when the lore just comes out and says, "Nuh uh, you can't do that."

You want a city of Freeguilders that don't worship Sigmar and actively fight against his forces? They'll be fighting an uphill battle, but nothing is stopping you from saying they exist.

Warband of Chaos Warriors that worship a minor warp diety with no connection to the Big 4? Go wild.

 A court of scheming vampires that don't follow the will of Nagash?

NOPE. NOT ALLOWED. THEY DON'T EXIST. And if you try to say that they do, the lore just reminds you that they might think that they have free will, but they were actually just slaves the whole time. It's not like people are asking for something that breaks the setting; it's as simple as wanting their army guys to follow a different boss.

There's more to being undead than following the will of Nagash: I'd say that losing all your humanity and being forced to consume the souls of the living in order to prolong your eternal undeath at the risk of losing your mind and becoming a beast or forgoing that and withering away in a state of perpetual torment is enough of a curse without being bossed around by a skeleton in a big hat.

Don't get me wrong, I love Nagash and he's my favorite character in the lore, but having him be the only option is just boring.

Yes, infighting would make GA: Death more interesting because it introduces the potential for new stories. No, it's not as interesting when all the current inter-Death conflicts boil down to "senile skeleton is having another mindbreak episode."

It's just as strange with destruction, where they forced the god of the Greenskins into the role of being the only god for races that... aren't Greenskins. I've mentioned this before, but GW introduced a godbeast named Ravenak, who is nothing more than a giant mouth in the ground known for his perpetual hunger and whose chief form of magic was first mastered by the ogres... and then said the ogres just worship Gorkamorka. Why? Because they're in GA: Destruction. There isn't any other reason. It doesn't do anything for their story to have them tied to Gorkamorka, andto say that other races NEED to be tied to him as well doesn't make any sense. Why? Because they're in the same group on the webstore? Would we have to introduce another GA that only includes "nomadic uncivilized races that DON'T worship Gorkamorka"?

 

 

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5 hours ago, Jator said:

 I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but everything in Destruction -for better or worst- is linked to GorkaMorka.  As destructive as an insectoid army could be, I don't see how the insectoid mind could be linked to a brawl-loving god like him. The little we know about the Silent Ones certainly doesn't mention anything about Old' Gork & Mork.

Whilst it's true Destruction is usually associated with Gorkamorka, there's nothing that really requires it in the same way Death does. If another faction with zero association popped up in Destruction, it wouldn't really matter so long as they're able to team up with the others for all of about five minutes.

Death by comparison, at least now, pretty much has to be tied to Nagash in some form given his appetite for devouring other Death Gods - hell, half of the FEC are genuinely loyal to him. Personally I wouldn't mind Nagash being all encompassing so much if the Studio presented him as something but Skeletor pretty much the whole time.

Edited by Clan's Cynic
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GW is from the 80s so - Nagash is going to be Skeletor! ;)

That said they also sort of have to have him fail and such because right now he has the greatest potential of any one faction to win everything. Even Chaos has a supreme amount of in-fighting within the legions. Heck some Khorne legions will tear themselves apart on their own if they don't get enough combat to sate their bloodlust. 

Right now his failing is a fragmented mind, I could see GW play on that even more. I also think his grasp weakening gives a chance for more characters under him to branch out as their own thing without always having "and then Nagash appeared and said NO!" aspect. 

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46 minutes ago, Overread said:

GW is from the 80s so - Nagash is going to be Skeletor! ;)

That said they also sort of have to have him fail and such because right now he has the greatest potential of any one faction to win everything. Even Chaos has a supreme amount of in-fighting within the legions. Heck some Khorne legions will tear themselves apart on their own if they don't get enough combat to sate their bloodlust. 

Right now his failing is a fragmented mind, I could see GW play on that even more. I also think his grasp weakening gives a chance for more characters under him to branch out as their own thing without always having "and then Nagash appeared and said NO!" aspect. 

For all of the complaints about Nagash's failures he is also often treated as the biggest threat by all the various of the other factions. Nagash for all of his failures has the most showing of the major gods. Heck the Mortal realms only exist because Skeltor has a serious infestation of rats. 

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4 hours ago, Kronos said:

Agreed. Death and Destruction need some more aligned but not devoted factions. Flesh Eater courts need Ushoran and possibly some more Bloodline sires to lead their respective vamps. Death in General could do with some other deities which highly annoy Nagash, and to some extent he will want to consume them, but for reason unknown (a wizard did it) Nagash cannot consume anymore gods and must learn to align himself. But his end goal will be to betray and them, whether these are new gods or Vampire, or sone other necromantic lords.

The chaos gods hate each other and even they can allign for their own just cause. 
 

Destruction needs a lot of work in this field, Sons of Behemat being a refreshing step away from Gorkamork being worshipped in a different form. Gloomspite also have some well thought out rationales of being connected albeit different to other greenskin’s. Contradicting my own argument, I’d really like to see a polar opposite to the Ironjawz - sneaky Gitz, Shaman’s, t hit and run cavalry and lots of archers - I feel wolf riders could fill this niche well and would be great way to AoS-ify Goblins and Hobgoblins. 

I would love to see Spiderfang evolve into it's own thing as well as Classic Goblins in the form of Wolf riders and Chariots. They're perfect ways to flesh out both forces with only adding a few units to each at a time.

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On topic of Gods within Alliances, Behemat has stepped up to the plate for the Sons of Behemat and has given them a Godbeast to admire besides GorkaMorka. Hell Behemat and GorkaMorka were all kinds of best buds, with Behemat being his ultimate champion until the Chaos Gods told GorkaMorka that Behemat had more freedom to do as he wished and that GorkaMorka was Sigmars puppet, ultimately leading him to challenge Behemat to fight the God King.

There always has to be a World Titan so it's only a matter of time until one makes itself known or a Mega Gargant just never stops growing, this is a major plot point going forward in my opinion and could be the next Destruction narrative arc after the Siege of Excelsis. It could even be this World Titan that takes the fight to Azyr, using their strength to shatter the gates. 

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1 hour ago, Neverchosen said:

For all of the complaints about Nagash's failures he is also often treated as the biggest threat by all the various of the other factions. Nagash for all of his failures has the most showing of the major gods. Heck the Mortal realms only exist because Skeltor has a serious infestation of rats. 

Oh aye, he's got a whole realm mostly under his control* and that gives him phenomenal power. Plus each time almost any other faction has someone die save for Stormcast or Chaos; that bone and soul becomes Nagash's. So even in defeat he can rebuild his forces with a speed others cannot match. Orruks might have a lot of power, but they'll often fall to infighting, same as Chaos. Meanwhile Nagash has potential to sweep all others aside. 

Yet he knows he can't overplay his hand, enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that. Order and Destruction will stand side by side in combat and have done so in the past. So Nagash has to be cautious in his power plays least his enemies unit against him (and even if Chaos don't unite against him, they'd come to have a slice of the combat if all out war broke out). 

 

 

*Skaven might be one of the few/only that manages to hold him back. Interestingly this also makes Skaven different to the other Dark Chaos Gods because when their mortal worshippers die, they go to the Chaos Realm; whilst Skaven have their own underworld in the Realm of the Dead

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7 hours ago, Jator said:

 I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but everything in Destruction -for better or worst- is linked to GorkaMorka.  As destructive as an insectoid army could be, I don't see how the insectoid mind could be linked to a brawl-loving god like him. The little we know about the Silent Ones certainly doesn't mention anything about Old' Gork & Mork.

GW could bend the rules a bit and say that they worship GorkaMorka, he's just not a major part of the faction's identity or lore. There's already a foundation for this sorta thing in Destruction with Gloomspite Gitz and their green skins.

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Remember the Grand Alliances are based on a theme not on actual alliances. Skaven, for example, might be in Chaos but they hardly ally with the other Chaos forces, save that Pestilens will sometimes tolerate Nurgle for a while. Otheriwse they are more likely to be hostile to the other forces. Same in Order, many of the forces outright war with each other and Idoneth have been harvesting souls from the others for ages. Even Death shows the same, many of the Flesheaters are totally out of Nagash's proper control and influence.

What Destruction represents are forces that don't build cities or work the land; they are not civilized in the "roman" sedentary style of life that Sigmar envisions for the Realms. They are nomadic, raiders, builders of forts and castles, but not those who work the land or "improve" it in the same way. They are the wild, the untamed. 

 

Sylvaneth would likely fit rather well in Destruction save that she's still got an Aelf element to her thinking on how she also works and improves the land. 

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