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I've been working on a spreadsheet for warscrolls, what kit makes them, and the material/age of the kit to try and figure out what armies need updating the most and heres a rough overview of what ive

Am I the only one mad the OBR are getting regular archers? GW had the opportunity to create a unit called Crossbonemen and they didn't take it.

hey don’t be sorry, it’s always helpful when people reveal exactly what kind of person they really are.

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16 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Don't count on it.

That's a fairly safe prediction!

Though if we get 20 skeletons/zombies per box, it would lessen the blow 

Failing that, I'll be looking at Oathmark or Fireforge for the bulk of an army, with the Underworlds warband providing the leaders. I wouldn't spend 3/4 euro per model on horde units, it's the reason I never got into playing full games of fantasy.

Looking forward to seeing what else is in this new box

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5 hours ago, Enoby said:

I hope so, assuming this large shard of Slaanesh is about as powerful as Nagash/Archaon/Teclis etc, they're all gods who have models. Slaanesh himself shouldn't (he's too powerful to really encapsulate in rules) but the Newborn is more like an ultra greater daemon from what I can tell.

That said, it may still be above the scale of the other models.

I truly hope we do eventually get the Newborn. Perhaps in AOS 3? The Newborn could be a major plot mover. 

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16 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

I feel these new Skellies will make a great Grave Guard unit or even be the basis for an amazing Wight King!

I’m hoping for them to be simple Skeletons and Grace Guard yet to be shown. Imagine what they can do to them if that is the basic skeleton?

I love how they started with Sepulchral Guard and then went all in upping 100x the stakes!

It shows that WU are not only a testing ground for new ideas but also a stub to new armies or units. Obviously not all will become one, but Kurnothi fans have another reason to rejoice and hope 

Edited by alghero81
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@alghero81 I suppose I am simply too old fashioned when it comes to skeletons and think of them as lightly armed/armoured:
 

 
Beyond that I share your feelings that they could be even more interesting and ornate if they made Grave Guard more elite.

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On 2/3/2021 at 12:33 PM, yukishiro1 said:

Cathay is definitely because of the China market; there is very little argument for it from a story/lore perspective, and certainly not for making it one of the core factions in the release when Ogres and Chaos Dwarves aren't even included. 

I don't think you are going to see Araby in a TW game because of concerns about causing offense. And it's even more peripheral to the End Times story than Cathay (though more central to the old world generally), so it's all potential downside with very little upside. 

There is an extreme argument for Cathay to be in the TW series-- it is THE largest human empire in the Full Old World. They are mentioned as having fought back numerous Chaos invasions and daemon incursions, just like Kislev. Being based on ancient China means there is a huge amount of mythical creatures to include in the roster, as well as room for new magic lores.

In order to make TWW3 feel like its own game instead of an expansion to 1 and 2, CA needed to use more of the Full Old World map that never got shown in WHF; that means Darklands, Cathay, the Steppes, Ind, etc. Because 3 will use the eastern parts of Old World, we should also expect Ogres, Hobgoblins, and Chaos Dwarves as DLC. Possibly Ind or Nippon as well too.

Them having a Chinese audience now because of 3K is definitely a bonus, but don't say there's no lore argument for the biggest human empire to be represented in a Total War game.

The trailer and accompanying WHC article solidified my suspicion that the Old World reboot will be used to actually expand the Old World (hence Full Old World and not just the hyper-specific pseudo-Europe corner). We know Kislev gets a new range for TOW, we've now seen Cathay should as well because of TWW3. If Chaos Dwarves ever come back to the table it would be through this reboot IMO.

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7 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

@alghero81 I suppose I am simply too old fashioned when it comes to skeletons and think of them as lightly armed/armoured:
 

 
Beyond that I share your feelings that they could be even more interesting and ornate if they made Grave Guard more elite.

Ahah, if we are going for classics then the final battle in Army of Darkness

Image result for army of darkness skeletons

But yeah, seeing what GW can do anything is welcome.

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19 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

There is an extreme argument for Cathay to be in the TW series-- it is THE largest human empire in the Full Old World. They are mentioned as having fought back numerous Chaos invasions and daemon incursions, just like Kislev. Being based on ancient China means there is a huge amount of mythical creatures to include in the roster, as well as room for new magic lores.

In order to make TWW3 feel like its own game instead of an expansion to 1 and 2, CA needed to use more of the Full Old World map that never got shown in WHF; that means Darklands, Cathay, the Steppes, Ind, etc. Because 3 will use the eastern parts of Old World, we should also expect Ogres, Hobgoblins, and Chaos Dwarves as DLC. Possibly Ind or Nippon as well too.

Them having a Chinese audience now because of 3K is definitely a bonus, but don't say there's no lore argument for the biggest human empire to be represented in a Total War game.

The trailer and accompanying WHC article solidified my suspicion that the Old World reboot will be used to actually expand the Old World (hence Full Old World and not just the hyper-specific pseudo-Europe corner). We know Kislev gets a new range for TOW, we've now seen Cathay should as well because of TWW3. If Chaos Dwarves ever come back to the table it would be through this reboot IMO.

The other thing with TW3 is that it's starting with 4 Chaos Armies. That's all well and good but adding Ogres and Chaos Dwarves to that mix means you've got a new expensive launch game that's basically just a whole pile of evil monsters beating up on each other. Adding two human, "Good Guy" armies to the starting lineup makes the game way more approachable, especially to casuals.  Even for Chaos fans, if there's no civilizations to destroy, it's a little...? This is also why the announcement trailer focuses on Kislev. If it was just Khorne wailing on Nurgle or whatever, the stakes would be a lot more muddled.

You'll be able to play older factions in TW3 eventually, of course, but it will probably not be for at least six months after release, looking at TW2. Having a varied and satisfying base campaign that everyone will want to buy in at the start is an important consideration. It's also nice that Kislev and Cathay will basically occupy opposite ends of the Darklands map, so two very different campaign experiences.

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Ulfenkarn will be my first Warhammer Quest game, so I hope the box will not be limited. And as I understand GW will be releasing a few  expansions later in the future, with new minis and rules, correct? And all of the minis will have warscrolls for the main game, right? Noob questions :).

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1 hour ago, Aeryenn said:

Are we really sure these skeletons (or similar sculpts) will be included in the Gravelords faction?

One can hope at least! I think the classic "Vampire overlords/elite with shambling minions" is still a solid concept. In theory they could plan it so that the player can either build a small elite vampire force or go for a more mixed army where vampires serve as the leaders and skeletons, zombies, etc. serve as cheap troops (hell, they could even ally in ghosts and ghouls). Either way, I love mixed armies, so I hope there'll be lots of choice that won't get crippled too much by forcing people into specific builds.

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5 hours ago, BaylorCorvette said:

I like how the art of Oleksander appears to be when he wasn't dead, but curve ball, he's a skeleton! Makes you wonder about the other models in the art.

Oleksander.png

Mate nice catch!!

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1 hour ago, Zamik said:

I guess it's not 100% certain, but if a Gravelord is anything like a landlord, then I assume their tenants are skeletons!

Indeed, I hope those Vamps pay their undead workers. I mean their job has to be bone-grinding....

So concerning pay, the high society of Vamps could toss them a bone or two 😬

 

I love the models. I was thinking about replacing my Graveguard with these!

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1 hour ago, CommissarRotke said:

There is an extreme argument for Cathay to be in the TW series-- it is THE largest human empire in the Full Old World. They are mentioned as having fought back numerous Chaos invasions and daemon incursions, just like Kislev. Being based on ancient China means there is a huge amount of mythical creatures to include in the roster, as well as room for new magic lores.

In order to make TWW3 feel like its own game instead of an expansion to 1 and 2, CA needed to use more of the Full Old World map that never got shown in WHF; that means Darklands, Cathay, the Steppes, Ind, etc. Because 3 will use the eastern parts of Old World, we should also expect Ogres, Hobgoblins, and Chaos Dwarves as DLC. Possibly Ind or Nippon as well too.

Them having a Chinese audience now because of 3K is definitely a bonus, but don't say there's no lore argument for the biggest human empire to be represented in a Total War game.

The trailer and accompanying WHC article solidified my suspicion that the Old World reboot will be used to actually expand the Old World (hence Full Old World and not just the hyper-specific pseudo-Europe corner). We know Kislev gets a new range for TOW, we've now seen Cathay should as well because of TWW3. If Chaos Dwarves ever come back to the table it would be through this reboot IMO.

Cathay is cool but I can guarantee you a massive part of the decision to make up a whole new roster and characters (the only Cathayan character we ever really got was Dien Chang from Beasts in Velvet, who was just a Tzentch cultist that did kung fu and hated Imperials) was because of the gigantic market that is Chinese gamers. 

CA, much like GW, wants money. Three Kingdoms was a big hit in China, and Chinese gamers market in general is gigantic.

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4 minutes ago, Deepkin said:

Cathay is cool but I can guarantee you a massive part of the decision to make up a whole new roster and characters <snip> was because of the gigantic market that is Chinese gamers. 

CA, much like GW, wants money.

This. Movies do it, and it works. GW is just following the money (as they should!).

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28 minutes ago, Deepkin said:

Cathay is cool but I can guarantee you a massive part of the decision to make up a whole new roster and characters (the only Cathayan character we ever really got was Dien Chang from Beasts in Velvet, who was just a Tzentch cultist that did kung fu and hated Imperials) was because of the gigantic market that is Chinese gamers. 

CA, much like GW, wants money. Three Kingdoms was a big hit in China, and Chinese gamers market in general is gigantic.

I think 3k was made because wh:tw was gaining ground in China.

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1 hour ago, CommissarRotke said:

Them having a Chinese audience now because of 3K is definitely a bonus, but don't say there's no lore argument for the biggest human empire to be represented in a Total War game.

 

But there really isn't a lore argument, based on the existing IP. Cathay may be big, but it's nearly totally unexplored in the WHFB setting. A few mentions here and there, but nothing you could really call a real presence in the IP. It's technically there, like Ind or Nippon, but way off to the side of the main setting. Even the End Times stuff was just a barely-sketched backdrop to give the Greenskins something to do.

I'm not saying that makes it a terrible choice or anything, but it is totally out of left field, and represents a very large departure from the original WHFB lore. 

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It isn't departing from the lore, it is simply adding to the lore in a direction GW always had there and which was never heavily developed. IT gets mentioned all the time in Gotrek and Felix stories; GW were certainly, at one time, going to do Cathay and Nippon and Araby, they just never got around to doing it. First Lord of the Rings came along and Old World got less and less attention; then new methods and plastics came out so old stuff needed updating to remain current and then BOOM End Times. Instead of 5 years of AoS we could have had 5 years of Cathay, Nippon and new skaven instead. 

 

Departing from the old lore would be to do Drasacar - a totally new faction on a new land mass invented 5 mins ago by me. That would be departing; Cathay is adding to and extending the existing lore along pre-existing construction lines. Heck many of the designs being revealed might well be based on concept sketches decades old in GW's archives. 

 

 

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I don't feel like GW is actually following the Chinese market that much.

That said, Creative Assembly(the total war developers) DEFINETELY are. They have two games that are being developed for the Chinese market ( Elysium and Battles: warhammer) and most of their articles/news/faqs are available in English and in Simplified/Traditional Chinese. At the same time total war Three Kingdoms has probably been produced to appeal to the Chinese market.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was CA to push GW to make Cathay happen.

That said, I like the chinese aesthetics, so it's good news to me 👍

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Whichever is pushing who does not matter to me as long as it means eventually new minies and maybe even cross-compatibility with AoS. 
If Kislev units were designed together, we can imagine other stuff was too and we know designers don’t just throw away their artwork...

Edited by alghero81
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Just off the top of my head, what units do we "know" existed in the lore for Cathay in The World That Was?

There's the classic Blackpowder Rocket artillery piece, and the Empire Helstrom Rocket Battery unit entries continued to reference them being based off of Cathayan fireworks well into the final editions of the game.
Tamurkhan has a side adventure in the narrative where Sayl the Faithless goes and attacks an outpost of the Grand Empire of Cathay in the Mountains, and they have guardian lion/dog statues and longswordsmen in ornate armour (which is further supported by the most famous Cathayan exports in Warhammer Fantasy/Mordheim apart from silks being the renowned Cathayan Longswords). I think Tamurkhan also mentions them having celestial mages, which the Ogre Kingdoms books also suggest, given it is the Dragon Emperor's astromancers who help bring a comet (that ends up being/becoming the Great Maw) down to stop the Ogres becoming a threat to Cathay.
Then in the Ogre Kingdoms book there are Monks with martial arts and magical/semi-unbelievable powers, and the Eshin learned their shadow arts in Cathay, which also implies some form of ninja clan type faction remained a part of Cathayan lore until the end of Warhammer Fantasy.
Swordsaints/Monks/Living Temple Statues/Ninjas/Rockets/Lore of Heaven Wizards
Anything I'm missing from actual sources?

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