The Rumour Thread

[novakai]

28 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Yeah sorry about that... I keep buying some of those because they’re amazing models that I can convert and lovingly paint even if I don’t play the army 😅

kinda encouraging GW.. 

Eh I feel more bad for the Underworlds game as a whole because I bet a lot of people buy the models for that game but don’t actually play it. 

[OkayestDM]

6 minutes ago, novakai said:

Eh I feel more bad for the Underworlds game as a whole because I bet a lot of people buy the models for that game but don’t actually play it. 

*Raises hand slowly*

[Overread]

50 minutes ago, novakai said:

I got a feeling that GW cut production off early for LRL or had to push them out sooner. Their release seem very incomplete if you compare them to OBR or IDK. Their lack of generic heroes especially melee combat ones really make a big gap in their roster (like a Leige Kavalos or soulreaper equivalent)

I don't know. Ossiarchs aren't that big an army either and have only two types of battleline unit - mortek guard and deathriders. Heck Daughters of Khaine only have multiple leaders because one kit builds several all at once. They are only just about to get their first solo leader model and they were one of the first AoS armies (actually they are getting two - one from the Underworld set and one from the new duel pack). 

I don't think Luminoth were cut short at all; they are just like most of the other newer armies in that they are small by intention. We see it in several armies over AoS and it will remain so for a while until those armies get attention and either drip-fed new models to update them or get a big second wave like Genstealer Cults got. 

 

This will speed up as at some point (I hope) GW will stop releasing new armies regularly for AoS and will focus on bolstering what they already have. 

[Thiagoma]

1 hour ago, Overread said:

I don't think Luminoth were cut short at all; they are just like most of the other newer armies in that they are small by intention.

The problem is that Lumineth not only have few models but they also got very few warscrolls. Only 9.

[LuminethMage]

1 hour ago, novakai said:

I got a feeling that GW cut production off early for LRL or had to push them out sooner. Their release seem very incomplete if you compare them to OBR or IDK. Their lack of generic heroes especially melee combat ones really make a big gap in their roster (like a Leige Kavalos or soulreaper equivalent)

I don’t think so. It’s pretty fitting for Teclis army. The lore supports pretty much that all the heroes are Wizards. All the temples are let by mages. If you look at the Underworld warband, again looks like it’s being lead by a Wizard. Even the normal troops and army organization which were installed by Tyrion have mages on top according to the Battletome. So it’s possible we will never see a non-named melee hero for the Lumineth. Maybe at most a hybrid one. 

It makes them less appealing to some people, so it might not have been a good idea by GW to conceptualize the Lumineth like that, but I don’t think that you can take it as a sign for some kind of production issue. I think it was done on purpose. It also makes the Lumineth a bit different, and leaves them with some clear weak points. 

———

None of the artifacts mentioned will likely cause any problems now or in the future because on how the keywords are done. They also haven’t painted themselves in a corner. 

There is another one in the range though, which you’ll likely see quite often, and which will cause a bit of raging, especially among players of the FEC, Ironjawz persuasion. 

[novakai]

3 hours ago, Overread said:

I don't know. Ossiarchs aren't that big an army either and have only two types of battleline unit - mortek guard and deathriders. Heck Daughters of Khaine only have multiple leaders because one kit builds several all at once. They are only just about to get their first solo leader model and they were one of the first AoS armies (actually they are getting two - one from the Underworld set and one from the new duel pack). 

I don't think Luminoth were cut short at all; they are just like most of the other newer armies in that they are small by intention. We see it in several armies over AoS and it will remain so for a while until those armies get attention and either drip-fed new models to update them or get a big second wave like Genstealer Cults got. 

 

This will speed up as at some point (I hope) GW will stop releasing new armies regularly for AoS and will focus on bolstering what they already have. 

I mean in the hero department it is still comparatively less though, like OBR got 4 small heroes, IDK got 4 small heroes, even KO got 4 small heroes. It felt like GW was going to rinse and repeat that same release structure for LRL but in the design phase they couldn’t produce the extra heroes in the end (And maybe that extra unit)

Edited September 4, 2020 by novakai

[LuminethMage]

2 hours ago, Thiagoma said:

The problem is that Lumineth not only have few models but they also got very few warscrolls. Only 9.

On the other hand it looks like the Lumineth have 9 working war scrolls, which is more than some of the other faction can say. It also looks like all of their sub-factions are playable and people are pretty much split on which one they like best. One of the 4 is a bit less so, but still - that's also pretty good for a new Battletome. 

It feels like GW  focus was more on internal balance and making sure all units have a distinct role and are useful. You have something to do in every phase of the game if you want to build your army like that. It might not be the units or models you personally wanted (and that could be a problem for sales in case a lot of people feel like that), but from a gaming point of view - I think it's hard to argue that the Lumineth are worse off than any of the other brand new armies was when they were released.  

[badnewsbeers]

Honestly I kind of appreciate the small army. Getting into 40k now is daunting at best. Keep the warscroll count low And slowly add as the game evolves over the years - and honestly, don’t be afraid to take away *ducks flak*

[Kramer]

8 hours ago, novakai said:

Eh I feel more bad for the Underworlds game as a whole because I bet a lot of people buy the models for that game but don’t actually play it. 

Haha I don’t think think the financial department of GW is that bothered  

but in the end if GW truly believes their statement of being a model company first, it isn’t that bad. 

[Kadeton]

6 hours ago, Thiagoma said:

The problem is that Lumineth not only have few models but they also got very few warscrolls. Only 9.

I don't really understand why this is a problem? I can't think when I last saw an army that used more than nine unique warscrolls in the same list. Heck, the current list I'm running only uses three.

Small, coherent factions with good internal balance and a strong core concept are much better than sprawling factions with dozens of options, almost all of which are garbage, in my opinion.

[novakai]

31 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Haha I don’t think think the financial department of GW is that bothered  

but in the end if GW truly believes their statement of being a model company first, it isn’t that bad. 

Well it’s more about the player base, like for me it darn hard to find anybody to play with since everybody who buys those models have no interested in the game itself.

[Incineroar87]

35 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

I don't really understand why this is a problem? I can't think when I last saw an army that used more than nine unique warscrolls in the same list. Heck, the current list I'm running only uses three.

Small, coherent factions with good internal balance and a strong core concept are much better than sprawling factions with dozens of options, almost all of which are garbage, in my opinion.

Agreed with this ! Nothing worse than having so many redundant unit and character choices in an army.  Give me an army with small but specialised unit choices instead of 7+ units fighting for my attention but only 1-2 actually being usable and viable.

[novakai]

6 minutes ago, Incineroar87 said:

Agreed with this ! Nothing worse than having so many redundant unit and character choices in an army.  Give me an army with small but specialised unit choices instead of 7+ units fighting for my attention but only 1-2 actually being usable and viable.

It more about Having numous style of play thought instead of playing the army a certain way and having redundant units, army longevity is mostly finding and building list in fun ways. Like if you had a Calvary lord that made Dawnriders battleline and have an all mounted army that would be cool. It not really about bloat on the roster itself.

of course it just people desire of what they want from an army, not everyone happy to be limited in choices while other people like less choices and tighter stuff

[Kramer]

41 minutes ago, novakai said:

Well it’s more about the player base, like for me it darn hard to find anybody to play with since everybody who buys those models have no interested in the game itself.

Flip side is, if they didn’t sell for the hobby the whole game might be cancelled due to a lack of interest. 

but I get your point. It always sucks if you like a game but struggle to find enough players. 

[Overread]

Whilst an army might not use more than 9 warscrolls at one time, people do like the option of choice when its not just choosing which of those 9 you "spam" in the army. That said such choice will come. Heck sometimes armies don't become popular until they get a second wave and increased diversity of choices and inspiration. We can expect to see Luminoth get at least two or more new models for each of their four elemental sides. We can expect to see Ossiarchs get new constructs; we can expect more sea creatures and warriors for the Deepkin etc... It's more a question of when rather than if (at least assuming GW's finances remain healthy). 

 

 

[Incineroar87]

2 hours ago, novakai said:

It more about Having numous style of play thought instead of playing the army a certain way and having redundant units, army longevity is mostly finding and building list in fun ways. Like if you had a Calvary lord that made Dawnriders battleline and have an all mounted army that would be cool. It not really about bloat on the roster itself.

of course it just people desire of what they want from an army, not everyone happy to be limited in choices while other people like less choices and tighter stuff

That's also what I was referring to in my first post, thats the sort of flexibility I look for in a army ideally.  If the choices are valid and offer multiple directions of play, I would prefer that over multiple units that perform the exact same role but some are made redundant due to cost or efficiency.   Heroes that unlock X battleline are perfect for that!

[whispersofblood]

This Blade of Leaping Gold tempest says everything a new player needs to know about the AoS community at the moment. I believe if LRL were released before or after HoS the book would have been very powerful, in our current range of battle tomes? They are definitely in the fat middle.

[Kramer]

15 minutes ago, Overread said:

Whilst an army might not use more than 9 warscrolls at one time, people do like the option of choice when its not just choosing which of those 9 you "spam" in the army. That said such choice will come. Heck sometimes armies don't become popular until they get a second wave and increased diversity of choices and inspiration. We can expect to see Luminoth get at least two or more new models for each of their four elemental sides. We can expect to see Ossiarchs get new constructs; we can expect more sea creatures and warriors for the Deepkin etc... It's more a question of when rather than if (at least assuming GW's finances remain healthy). 

 

 

I don’t agree. You’re right that it’s more down to different play styles to keep things interesting. But you don’t need more than nine kits to achieve that.
Going with your example of deepkin (14 warscrolls, 11 kits). If the rules allowed for more interesting builds such as thrall heavy, sea monster heavy and mixed (eel heavy already being a successful option) than the army would have plenty of variations. It’s that all those other builds don’t really work. A white dwarf update  could easily change that dynamic as the recent squig one did. Or what wrath of the everchosen did for maggotkin. 

although I do agree that having kits be assembled as variations really helps with that.... and more models is always nice  

also, and this might be me having played ogors, KO and stormcast the most recently, do most list have more than 9  units? Let alone different units? 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Kramer

[SunStorm]

3 hours ago, novakai said:

Well it’s more about the player base, like for me it darn hard to find anybody to play with since everybody who buys those models have no interested in the game itself.

I know it's only anecdotal, but Underworlds is the game i've played most over the last couple of years. It's easier to setup a quick game or two in an evening with a  friend over than setup the table for a full game of AoS or 30k. Or a few of us at work would play on our lunchbreak. All pre-working from home/lockdown ofc.

It's also an easier route to get people interested when all they need is a ~£20 box to join in, they don't even have to paint the miniatures, although it is encouraged. 

As much as I'd like the warbands to lead onto larger forces, I understand that doesn't always happen. For example, i'd love a full force of wolf riding goblins, with chariots and other beasts for a nomadic mounted force in the style of Rippa's Snarlfangs.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by SunStorm

[Frowny]

1 hour ago, SunStorm said:

As much as I'd like the warbands to lead onto larger forces, I understand that doesn't always happen. For example, i'd love a full force of wolf riding goblins, with chariots and other beasts for a nomadic mounted force in the style of Rippa's Snarlfangs.

They would also thematically fit quite well into ogors if they ever wanted to go that way. I think the warbands also makes sense to think about possible expansions to existing armies. I wish they had them as units or non-named characters though, rather than always named. I think it would help a lot being able to introduce new individual models to lines that need them (like ogors lacking a cavalry/skirmisher unit and needing a plastic frost sabre unit)

[sandlemad]

1 hour ago, SunStorm said:

I know it's only anecdotal, but Underworlds is the game i've played most over the last couple of years. It's easier to setup a quick game or two in an evening with a  friend over than setup the table for a full game of AoS or 30k. Or a few of us at work would play on our lunchbreak. All pre-working from home/lockdown ofc.

It's also an easier route to get people interested when all they need is a ~£20 box to join in, they don't even have to paint the miniatures, although it is encouraged. 

I'd second this, have played more WHU in the last few years than probably all the WHFB/40k/AoS games from the previous 20ish years combined. It has appeal not just as a more cost-effective game but also as something boardgame-adjacent. That gives it appeal for people who'd never dream of dropping hundreds on an AoS/40k army or who just aren't interested, and in my experience pulls on a much broader pool of potential players.

@novakai: If you're having trouble finding players, could be worth introducing it more widely to other folks, worked for me. I'd also say that of those who've dipped their toe in, none were doing it particularly for the models. I think people that do are likely to be existing AoS players or otherwise modeller/painter types above all.

Edited September 4, 2020 by sandlemad

[Kadeton]

3 hours ago, Overread said:

Whilst an army might not use more than 9 warscrolls at one time, people do like the option of choice when its not just choosing which of those 9 you "spam" in the army. That said such choice will come. Heck sometimes armies don't become popular until they get a second wave and increased diversity of choices and inspiration. We can expect to see Luminoth get at least two or more new models for each of their four elemental sides. We can expect to see Ossiarchs get new constructs; we can expect more sea creatures and warriors for the Deepkin etc... It's more a question of when rather than if (at least assuming GW's finances remain healthy). 

I don't believe that adding more warscrolls actually helps with choice. Deepkin have more than nine warscrolls to choose from, but every list I've played against is just eels. FEC have more than nine too, but all I've played against is Terrorgheists. Stormcast have nine gazillion warscrolls, but you wouldn't know it to see them on the table.

Diversity of choices comes primarily from internal balance. The only way you can have a fair choice is between two equally-valid options - otherwise, you've simply got a good choice and a bad choice, and that's not actually a choice at all.

The more choices available to an army, the harder it is to internally balance that book. I'm not saying nine is the magic number by any means, but I actually do think it's reasonable to say that each army should have the minimum number of warscrolls required to make all the playstyles that army is intended to support properly viable and balanced. If you want to add more units to an army, they should unlock a clear and balanced alternate playstyle for that army. They shouldn't replace or supersede the army's existing units within their existing playstyles.

Personally, I would prefer to see entirely new armies with limited but meaningful choices than expansion waves for existing armies. Those existing armies should already have a clear design and function - and if they don't, then more units isn't going to fix it! More armies in the game translates to more variety far more effectively than more units in each army.

[Enoby]

Internal balance is very important, no doubt about that, and a smaller roster of Warscrolls does make that a lot easier. Looking through the LRL battletome, there's no Warscroll that looks useless - the only one I'm a bit 'eh' about is the generic mountain spirit compared to the named hero (only 20 more points but seems to have loads of advantages), but the generic warscroll is still good and lets you take more than one. 

My other army, Hedonites of Slaanesh, is kind of the opposite. They have a massive selection of models (counting marked Slaves to Darkness and Beasts of Chaos), but there are some warscrolls (e.g. the Keeper of Secrets) that stand heads and shoulders above the rest, whilst some (e.g. fiends) are hardly ever used. This makes it quite disappointing to play none-standard HoS armies as they tend to fall flat. 

But, I can say for a fact that it's very nice to be able to use these 'bad' models if I want to. I've made a Wendigo Slaanesh army that uses a lot of Beasts of Chaos and Slaves to d Darkness models; it's competitively weak, but narratively strong and I like the fact that I was able to make the army in the first place. I don't think I'd be able to make something quite this themed in LRL simply because I would end up having to repeat the same models over and over (e.g. if I wanted a cow themed army, I have three warscrolls to work with). 

Overall, internal balance is great and makes the matched play experience more enjoyable when using your favourite warscrolls. But a wide roster is great for people who want a themed list. 

[Laststand]

On 9/1/2020 at 9:22 PM, Jefferson Skarsnik said:

If GW posted a rumour engine that was just straight up a space marine boltgun with a winged skull insignia on it, how long do you reckon it would take for someone to be like "OK, kind of stretching the steampunk thing to its limits, but digging this new Kharadron Overlords model they're teasing! "

About as long as it would take someone to say "There is a skull on that, must be the return of tombkings"

[Kramer]

On 9/1/2020 at 10:22 PM, Jefferson Skarsnik said:

If GW posted a rumour engine that was just straight up a space marine boltgun with a winged skull insignia on it, how long do you reckon it would take for someone to be like "OK, kind of stretching the steampunk thing to its limits, but digging this new Kharadron Overlords model they're teasing! "

That would definitely be a deepkin endless spell...

am I right @HollowHills?

Edited September 4, 2020 by Kramer