The Rumour Thread

[PraetorDragoon]

Tamurkhan's Horde, Legion of Azgorh and Monstrous Arcanum have 16/07/2020 versions on the Downloads section of Warhammer Community.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/downloads/#warhammer-age-of-sigmar

Doesn't look like there are changes.

6 minutes ago, Fyrenn said:

I was wondering ...  

There's a bit of talk about if/when Shadow Elves and Malkeith, but also how DoK needs updating and a second wave.  Isn't it possible that they would merge to make Dark Aelves 2.0?  I think DoK lacks a bit of diversity with units, and this could just become a new faction where they're combined... I mean, i don't really think we need another faction with only a few kits... and CoS is letting them phase out the older units (serepentis, etc) to make something new.  I'd even wonder if the new warband sort of shifts the aesthetic of DoK a little bit with some of those shadow dudes to be more welcoming of that sort of expansion.

TLDR;  is there any reason why a Shadow Aelf release wouldn't just be an expansion on DoK? Just give it a new name with DoK as a subfaction, etc?  Is a lore reason or something?

The Shadow Aelves people are talking about would be those whose souls were drained from Slaanesh by Malerion, and he is unlikely to share power.

[swarmofseals]

50 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I am fully aware that posting criticism in this Forum is neither wanted nor hear

back to your post: This AoS year (GHB to GHB) has arguably been the biggest low for AoS since I‘ve joined the game due to super game breaking rules and phase-denial shenanigans as well as absurd power-differences among armies (Slaanesh‘s last struggles, Immortal Ossiarchs on the rampage, Slaves to weakness, Orruk Dum-Dun-Clans, Tzeentch‘s pyromaniacs, Sera-DenyYourMagicPhase-Phon, „SoWhereAreMyReworkedWarscrolls“-Eternals and lately Lumineth Cheese-Lords).

I don‘t see how AoS is improving at all especially after the recent GHB release.

A general note:
In my opinion criticism and accepting criticism is of utmost importance: If people keep on defending/ignoring or not wanting to hear opinions that GW is failing to deliver a good product AoS is going to fall apart due to a lack of rules-quality. It will be those people’s fault if the game will, at one point be driven against a wall. 
How is G-Dubs supposed to know that they need to improve if all they read is praise and defense of their new products? Why would they want to improve, if everything is just fine? Making GW listen to any feedback at all seems to be way too hard already because let‘s face it: They could put out the worst product and enough people would still buy it for GW to make a nice profit.

A thought on your first post that is a bit disconnected from the rest, so I'll put it under a spoiler tag:

Spoiler

I don't think that criticism here is neither wanted nor heard. What isn't wanted (I think) is repetitive, low effort criticism. There are a lot of people here who argue completely by assertion or providing minimal, highly subjective evidence (if any). When these arguments are made repeatedly it gets tiresome. In my experience well thought out, constructive criticism is quite well received.

As to your second point, I first want to say that you are completely entitled to your opinion. I personally disagree with you, but I think you have a valid point. The evidence suggests that the direction that the game has gone in over the years has been toward an overall much higher power level but with greater balance between factions. You're absolutely right that there are more high powered mechanics in the game now than there were in AoS 1.0. You've got armies that are incredibly tough to shift in melee (Ossiarchs, Fyreslayers), armies that can dominate the magic phase (Seraphon, Lumineth, Cities of Sigmar, Nagash lists), armies that can shoot very well (Tzeentch, Cities of Sigmar, KO, Seraphon), armies that can drown you in bodies (Orruk Warclans, Seraphon, Legion of Chaos Ascendant, Tzeentch, Slaves to Darkness), armies that can do absurd damage in melee even with cheap units (Orruk Warclans, Fyreslayers), actual viable monster mash lists (Ogor Mawtribes), etc.

But overall I think the evidence points to there being a greater degree of balance now than at any other point. I'll spoiler my argument because it's rather long.
 

Spoiler

 

In the first iteration of the GHB there were a few armies that were way better than the rest. Order Gunline, Destruction Thundertusk Spam, Kunnin' Rukk and (believe it or not) Tomb Kings were dominant. Do you recall when Tomb Kings just wrecked UK Masters with pretty much all of the participants agreeing that they were OP?

Then toward the tail end of AOS 1.0 we shifted toward a metagame in which Daughters of Khaine was just clearly the best faction, putting up a win rate over 70%. Legions of Nagash and Idoneth were also good at 60+%. Everything else sat far below (if I recall correctly).

Last year we saw periods where Skaven, FEC and Slaanesh were at the apex, but their dominance was never as extreme as LoN and DoK at their height. There were more factions in the high 50's and low 60's win rate.

Before COVID-19 derailed the entire competitive scene, the metagame was looking to be in really good shape. Tzeentch came out and had some clear issues, but it was quickly pulled back. It may be that they are still a bit too much, but we just don't have the evidence to know due to lack of data. There also might be issues with Seraphon and LoCA but it's hard to really know without the data. Regardless, over the past year more factions have risen to a competitive level. Cities of Sigmar, Orruk Warclans, FEC, Tzeentch, Ossiarch, Fyreslayers, Legion of Grief, Idoneth, and DoK have all performed at a very high level. Other factions have been less consistent but still been piloted to very respectable finishes -- Blades of Khorne, Gloomspite Gitz, Ogor Mawtribes, Skaven and Sylvaneth. There are a few factions that are clearly struggling, and they tend to be the ones that have tomes that are among the oldest and/or weren't that strong to begin with: SCE, Nighthaunt, Legions of Nagash, and Nurgle. Slaanesh also likely now belongs in the bottom group following several major nerfs.

We don't conclusively know where the newest tomes (Seraphon, LRL, KO, StD) belong, but I suspect Seraphon will be in the higher tier and the other three in the middle tier. And of course the GHB 2020 changes will shake things up a bunch.

Regardless, my point is that there are more factions in the upper echelons that at any point in the game's history, and that the second tier is also pretty reasonable. Even though armies are more powerful than ever, there are far more options that can realistically hit the top tables now.

 

Personally, I would much rather have a higher overall power level with factions that are more clearly distinct in terms of capabilities but closer together in terms of actual overall performance. But if you prefer a game with a lower overall power level that's completely fine. I'm just not going to take it very seriously when you frame that position like it's an objective fact that defines good/bad game design as opposed to an opinion about what style of game you prefer.

My personal take on the question:

Spoiler

I'm not really bothered by the high powered design style. If some opponents can shut down my magic phase that's fine. All the top magic armies can compete against one another in the hero phase. Nagash, Kroak, Hallowheart, and Teclis have real game against one another, and they are going to shut pretty much everyone else out. To me, that's fine. I'm just going to adapt by not building my list around magic if I'm not one of those guys. If I'm DoK and I can't get my Mindrazor off against those magic fiends that's OK. I have different parts of the game that I excel in, and the limited amount of magic that I take will pay off in other matchups.

If I play a gunline cities army I'm not going to complain that I can't melee with Orruk Warclans and win.

To me it's a bit like in Magic: The Gathering where different decks are vastly better at certain parts of the game than other decks on a regular basis. Like, generally speaking over the course of the game if you are trying to play a black, green, or blue aggro deck you're probably going to have a bad time. Yes, there have been times when those colors have had viable aggro builds but most of the time the aggro end of the spectrum heavily features white and red.

Speaking to your last point, I can say without any doubt whatsoever that GW is listening to feedback and criticism. This is particularly true of well argued, high quality criticism. The problem is that most of the criticism is low effort, non-constructive, and poorly supported with evidence. There's a lot of argument-by-assertion and low effort posting on the other side as well, of course. But (at least imo), if you want something to change it's on you to make the case for that change.

I observe so much knee-jerking here, and because we're all human we have a tendency to anchor on our initial impression of something. Confirmation bias is quite a thing. I don't like doing it, but I'm going to call you out specifically here: "I don‘t see how AoS is improving at all especially after the recent GHB release." We're still missing the points changes for many key factions and haven't gotten the FAQ/Errata yet and you've already decided that the GHB is not much of an improvement. Even if we did have all the information at this point it's far too early to have played any kind of meaningful number of new games with the new battleplans, secondary objectives, realm rules, etc.

It's entirely possible that the new GHB won't help game balance or could even harm it. But there is just no basis to know yet, and if you make a strong claim otherwise you are just making yourself look foolish.

I feel the need to repeat this in part because I fear that I may be coming off as overly harsh: I absolutely think that your opinion that the more extreme power level of the game is bad is a valid one. I really don't have any sense for what proportion of players prefer a really high powered game where you sometimes get completely shut down but also get to shut your opponent down vs. what proportion of players prefer a much flatter curve where most armies are OK to decent at most things. It may be that you are in the majority (or not). Either way it's a totally valid stance and certainly something GW should think about when shaping the direction the game will take.

 

[JackStreicher]

14 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

You've got armies that are incredibly tough to shift in melee (Ossiarchs, Fyreslayers)

That in itself would be fine, yet they rarely have one trait like „hard to kill“ it‘s usually: hard to kill AND dealing a lot of damage AND fast AND good at magic and so on. OBR and Fyreslayers are Hard to kill while having high damage (imo the point costs do not reflect that enough).

Avout the GHB:

The FAQ and the other point changes are not part of the GHB-Product, right? (at least I did not pay for them and will get them anyways) so those are more like the FAQ every semester to me: A separate thing, therefor I judge the product I paid for. =}

Edit: I also think that many units need a Warscroll rework instead of point changes.

thx for your very detailed answer, it‘s appreciated and I agree on quite a few points =}

Edited July 16, 2020 by JackStreicher

[willange]

On the topic of the new GHB 2020 and the eventual FAQ thereof, we have a new primary and secondary terrain list.

This list includes many of the new warcry pieces including, "Warcry Belltower" "Warcry Ruin" "Warcry Statue Head" and "Warcry Barricades".  Do we have actual warscrolls for those pieces?  Since they're in the list, they don't get random scenery effects (according to the new GHB rules), and without warscrolls they're not even technically obstacles.  Are there warscrolls for these terrain pieces someplace or will this need to be in the FAQ?

EDIT:  There's also now, "Azyrite ruins" "Azyrite Townscape Edifice" and "Azyrite Townscape Refuge" the latter 2 of which don't have warscrolls afaik.

Edited July 16, 2020 by willange

[Greasygeek]

1 hour ago, Chaos Shepard said:

I know I am probably reading to much into this image, but that skull looks like it has vampire fangs.

Man I so want that to be true.. If Soulblight is on its way Ill be one happy, but broke, camper. Honestly don’t care much for vampires but a full fledged Soulblight army means ZOMBIES Deadwalkers or whatever. Im Really seriously supercallafra... something looking forward to see GWs take on zombies. The few corpse bits and zombies pulling the Corpsekart is just a tease of how awesome a new bunch of zombies would be. I’ll build that messy army in an instant, even if it had to be lead by some boring, slickhaired Twilligt Clone. 

 

[a74xhx]

36 minutes ago, PraetorDragoon said:

Tamurkhan's Horde, Legion of Azgorh and Monstrous Arcanum have 16/07/2020 versions on the Downloads section of Warhammer Community.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/downloads/#warhammer-age-of-sigmar

Doesn't look like there are changes.

Looking at the last page of the arcanum, it says march 2020 and the points are pre-ghb2020.

[BaylorCorvette]

33 minutes ago, Greasygeek said:

Man I so want that to be true.. If Soulblight is on its way Ill be one happy, but broke, camper. Honestly don’t care much for vampires but a full fledged Soulblight army means ZOMBIES Deadwalkers or whatever. Im Really seriously supercallafra... something looking forward to see GWs take on zombies. The few corpse bits and zombies pulling the Corpsekart is just a tease of how awesome a new bunch of zombies would be. I’ll build that messy army in an instant, even if it had to be lead by some boring, slickhaired Twilligt Clone. 

 

Yup if there's a Vampire faction, I'm going all in!

[swarmofseals]

28 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

That in itself would be fine, yet they rarely have one trait like „hard to kill“ it‘s usually: hard to kill AND dealing a lot of damage AND fast AND good at magic and so on.

Avout the GHB:

The FAQ and the other point changes are not part of the GHB-Product, right? (at least I did not pay for them and will get them anyways) so those are more like the FAQ every semester to me: A separate thing, therefor I judge the product I paid for. =}

Edit: I also think that many units need a Warscroll rework instead of point changes.

thx for your very detailed answer, it‘s appreciated and I agree on quite a few points =}

The first point: fair enough, but also totally subjective and a bit of a digression. Your original case (in the context of a conversation about balance) is that the game design is worse now than at any point since you've been playing (granted I don't know how long that is). My argument is that you may very well enjoy the game less because of valid subjective reasons, but in terms of faction to faction balance the evidence supports the claim that game balance is actually better now than at any point since the original GHB. That many warscrolls are good at multiple things is tangential to the core argument. My case is that the overall power level is very high now, but that power is more evenly distributed across factions.

Regarding the GHB, the argument wasn't about how good of a product the GHB is. You asserted that the game as a whole isn't improving at all, especially after the GHB release. In the context of an overall discussion about game balance, an evaluation of the GHB as a completely independent product doesn't make much sense. If we're talking about the direction of the game as a whole when it comes to balance it only makes sense to discuss the GHB along with the points changes, FAQs and errata that are also released along with it. I questioned whether an evaluation of the direction the game is taking post GHB is even sensible without knowing the full point changes, FAQs, errata and without a substantial amount of actual gameplay experience under the new ruleset. I don't really see how whether you think of the two releases as separate bears much on that point but I could be missing something!

I totally agree regarding warscroll changes. I very much wish GW would be more aggressive with those. Liberators vs. Sequitors is a perfect example.

[KingBrodd]

34 minutes ago, Greasygeek said:

Man I so want that to be true.. If Soulblight is on its way Ill be one happy, but broke, camper. Honestly don’t care much for vampires but a full fledged Soulblight army means ZOMBIES Deadwalkers or whatever. Im Really seriously supercallafra... something looking forward to see GWs take on zombies. The few corpse bits and zombies pulling the Corpsekart is just a tease of how awesome a new bunch of zombies would be. I’ll build that messy army in an instant, even if it had to be lead by some boring, slickhaired Twilligt Clone. 

 

I'd love to see some updated Zombie sculpts.

[zilberfrid]

2 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

Yup if there's a Vampire faction, I'm going all in!

You're all about sparkles, dubious relations with teenage girls and 100 year high school careers then?

[Neverchosen]

@zilberfrid I keep trying to convince my cousin to paint his vampires in metallics to no avail.

Does the Underworlds teaser hint at Vampires or suggest that they are a long way off. Underworlds always seems to hint at eventual factions.

[BaylorCorvette]

5 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

You're all about sparkles, dubious relations with teenage girls and 100 year high school careers then?

Definitely not, but somehow I do not think that is going to be GW's take on Vampires.

[zilberfrid]

14 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

@zilberfrid I keep trying to convince my cousin to paint his vampires in metallics to no avail.

Does the Underworlds teaser hint at Vampires or suggest that they are a long way off. Underworlds always seems to hint at eventual factions.

Midwinter Minis has a tutorial on sparkly bits for Eldar wraith things using glitter. Quite shiny. 

 

13 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

Definitely not, but somehow I do not think that is going to be GW's take on Vampires.

Well, we can't truly know until we see it. GW has done a few creative interpretations. Apart from the obvious two reasons why not*, it wouldn't be too outlandish for them. We have skeletons with bulges in their pants and muscles, for instance.

 

* A) IP concerns

* B) Just enough knowledge of their customers not to do this.

Edited July 16, 2020 by zilberfrid

[silverstu]

2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

And something like insectoid eyes, lizard-like crest (the metal bits at the ears also fit there), beastman-like horns, kurnothi like antlers, a crescent moon, and even a tattoo onto the bone. No idea what the symbol behind it means.

There's a lot in there.

Theres also those ribbons with text on them down the side- Aelf maybe? [the pale blue has me thinking Lumineth but the text might suggest something else?].There seems to be a dwarf rune on the left hand ear panel and a pearl bracelet on the right [Idoneth?] I'd love more Kurnothi [antlers- ,maybe Sylvaneth dryads?] and the horns look like more beasts but I doubt they do them again in two straight editions. Lots to puzzle over..

 

I wonder if they will do a road map for Warcry too..

2 hours ago, Overread said:

Honestly I think that was the plan and I think GW has abandoned it. 

Instead of 10 different Stormcast armies with unique models in each one, they've instead opted for 10 different armies entirely. Stormcast end up like every other army in that their "subfactions" are just different flavours within the one battletome instead of getting tomes and models of their own.

 

Whilst Space Marines sell like mad its partly a self fullfilling cycle and it brings with it its own problems for GW. Including the fact that a marine fan might well just buy a codex and one or two new models and change their army from one to another without buying new models. Plus it results in a less diverse game, consider that in 40K there are only a handful of Xenos races; yet in AoS there's loads more variety of races and factions. A far greater wealth of potential options and lures and any existing gamer that wants a new army has to spend new army prices not just upgrade a few models and change the paint scheme on what they've got already. 

 

Yeah one of the reasons AoS is so vibrant is that Stormcast, while prominent aren't as dominant as Space Marines- I think GW are trying to fix that now by the looks of the Necron Release and there are hints that they have returned to building up the Xenos threat again after focusing on chaos last edition. 

They seem to be enjoying building small-is factions and then combining two together into a larger force later for AoS, we still have to see if they intend to return to individual factions or just add them as an element to new merging factions.

[zilberfrid]

6 minutes ago, silverstu said:

Theres also those ribbons with text on them down the side- Aelf maybe? [the pale blue has me thinking Lumineth but the text might suggest something else?].There seems to be a dwarf rune on the left hand ear panel and a pearl bracelet on the right [Idoneth?] I'd love more Kurnothi [antlers- ,maybe Sylvaneth dryads?] and the horns look like more beasts but I doubt they do them again in two straight editions. Lots to puzzle over..

I just found this on Reddit:

 

[alghero81]

I don’t know you guys but the thing I am more eager to see from AoS 3.0 would be the release trailer in the same style as the last 40k cinematic!!

Btw those Silent People look super interesting!

[KingBrodd]

26 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I just found this on Reddit:

 

Really hoping this is a tease of a new Faction to come. Insectile Humanoids would be awesome.

[Bayul]

Silent People, huh?

Never heard of them.

[Incineroar87]

Likely another unique warband faction that won't get an actual army anytime soon either lol  There's enough of these warband concepts to make so many unique armies for AOS.

[Hypno]

6 hours ago, KingBrodd said:

Megabrutes? I hope for an even larger Gore-Grunta type beast maybe a huge Tri Horned Rhino or a Gore-Grunta chariot.

Though a Dankhold sized Ironjaw would be bloody fantastic, literally.

I’ve spoke about this before, in a black library book can’t remember which There’s a mention of Orruk Rok boyz that are huge By Orruk standards and covered head to toe in huge steel plates so much that there even slower than normal Ironjawz because they wear so much armour. another thing mentioned is the skybashas clan has brutes riding on scrap metal hover boards (think green goblin) they would make another awesome unit. and then to add more unit variety I think they would have to change some lore a little as regards to ironjawz not using ranged weapons ardboys do forge their armour as they aren’t tough enough to punch it into shape like brutes, so they could possibly create some war machines or ranged weapons even just throwing axes,  catapults or cannons could fit well enough. Look again to wows iron horde and tell me you wouldn’t want to see a brute running around in an Ironstar completely out of control 

[willange]

4 hours ago, Bayul said:

Silent People, huh?

Never heard of them.

FTFY

[willange]

1 hour ago, Hypno said:

I’ve spoke about this before, in a black library book can’t remember which There’s a mention of Orruk Rok boyz that are huge By Orruk standards and covered head to toe in huge steel plates so much that there even slower than normal Ironjawz because they wear so much armour. another thing mentioned is the skybashas clan has brutes riding on scrap metal hover boards (think green goblin) they would make another awesome unit. and then to add more unit variety I think they would have to change some lore a little as regards to ironjawz not using ranged weapons ardboys do forge their armour as they aren’t tough enough to punch it into shape like brutes, so they could possibly create some war machines or ranged weapons even just throwing axes,  catapults or cannons could fit well enough. Look again to wows iron horde and tell me you wouldn’t want to see a brute running around in an Ironstar completely out of control 

Ironstars would be amazing in this game.  Or even just a more mega-armored Doomwheel.

[Baron Klatz]

5 hours ago, Incineroar87 said:

Likely another unique warband faction that won't get an actual army anytime soon either lol  There's enough of these warband concepts to make so many unique armies for AOS.

That's also Ghur in a nutshell too since lorewise it's given us races of Sanskrit, Aetar and crystal gholemkin grown on the dreadworms by Tzeentchites.

Definitely a reason to be happy Underworlds is staying there a bit longer so they can tease more new race concepts for eventual expansion.

3 hours ago, Hypno said:

I’ve spoke about this before, in a black library book can’t remember which There’s a mention of Orruk Rok boyz that are huge By Orruk standards and covered head to toe in huge steel plates so much that there even slower than normal Ironjawz because they wear so much armour. another thing mentioned is the skybashas clan has brutes riding on scrap metal hover boards (think green goblin) they would make another awesome unit. and then to add more unit variety I think they would have to change some lore a little as regards to ironjawz not using ranged weapons ardboys do forge their armour as they aren’t tough enough to punch it into shape like brutes, so they could possibly create some war machines or ranged weapons even just throwing axes,  catapults or cannons could fit well enough. Look again to wows iron horde and tell me you wouldn’t want to see a brute running around in an Ironstar completely out of control 

Absolutely love all of that!

I think specialist tribes of Ardboys with metal longbows and giant crossbows they scrapped off warbands on the way to Eight-points they intercepted(so Iron Golems, Vanguard Stormcasts and Ogors) would work well and be fine enough as skirmishers for the Ironjawz. Not so much to kill opponents but force them to have a fair fight with their masters. So they shoot bolts to slow enemies from running, nets to bring flyers down and even Ghur realmstone tipped arrows that make ethereal enemies lose that temporarily as the beast comes out in them and solidifies their primal spirit.

Also i'd liked scenery with tons of heads on spikes. Not as a tribal warning but arranged like stadium seats. A really cool thing about Ironjawz lore is they treat severed heads with respect. They have ally heads on them to seek their spirit for council and respected enemy heads so they can get a good seat to all the fights.

A scenery piece showing that they believe the heads are all still alive with their spirits watching so the lads fight harder(bravery boost) and a  Ironjawz commander can go to the heads for advice ( command point bonus)would be really amazing lorewise and in appearance.

[RuneBrush]

11 hours ago, Overread said:

Honestly I think that was the plan and I think GW has abandoned it. 

Instead of 10 different Stormcast armies with unique models in each one, they've instead opted for 10 different armies entirely. Stormcast end up like every other army in that their "subfactions" are just different flavours within the one battletome instead of getting tomes and models of their own.

I'm guessing the outcry that came along with "what? you want me to paint my models in a specific colour to gain the benefits from a rule" probably put the kibosh on developing the various stormhosts for a while 🤨😉

[zilberfrid]

32 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

I'm guessing the outcry that came along with "what? you want me to paint my models in a specific colour to gain the benefits from a rule" probably put the kibosh on developing the various stormhosts for a while 🤨😉

It's quite an Ork way of thinking that the colour of the model determines it stats.