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2 hours ago, HollowHills said:

To be fair for some of the armies I don't think there is any reason to update points. For instance, Tzeentch and KO only saw a couple of events and those were before they got the release errata. Seraphon hasn't seen any I don't think. Personally I would delay updating their points until Dec 2020.

Also how many people are actually playing regular matched play right now? There are no immediate tournaments, most shops are still closed for gaming. There is no desperate need for balance updates.

I think I speak for all Nighthaunt players when I say we are very much looking forward to that FAQ. Not because of our points but because we might loose some of the only descent aggressive battalions we got just six month ago. In addition we might also loose the option to play Legion of Grief. Nothing indicates how GW are going to handle these and as you hopefully agree the Nighthaunt is in a very tight spot already we seriously do not need to loose some of the few tools we have that occasionally works. Not looking for sympathy here but GW guys seriously.. Wtf are you doing?

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1 hour ago, Nos said:

Almost as if they are fulfilling their stated buisness aims to sell miniatures globally at a profit.

Nothing in there about making sure everyone who wants whatever they want from GW gets it though.

Except...

1) it isn't even good business, all the profit those second hand resellers are getting could be profit for you from selling the models yourself.

2) most of the cost is the design and moulding process, printing the models and packing them is a much smaller cost. So again by not meeting demand they lose out.

3) Why would you cheer lead for shareholders and be happy that genuine hobbyists are missing out? What is even the point of a comment like the one you just made.

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9 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

This is what I‘ve been thinking about GW and AoS for about 4 months now - something feels very off to me

You mean like there's been some kind of major upheaval during that period. Dont' forget without Corona we'd now have 2 fresh and new armies to play with with the Son's army giving open access (allied) mega giant models for anyone to basically use in their army. It would have been a big period of AoS dominance right up until 9th edition swapped things over. 

Corona broke that utterly and whilst the new armies for AoS are big its not as big as 9th edition so 9th has now pushed its way in and dominated and will continue for about a month to two months. AoS isn't in any danger, its just put to one side for a very short period of time whilst 40K gets its new edition shiny out of its system. 

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17 hours ago, RandyRyan said:

I just want to see these Gargants in real life!

I need my lads!!

10 hours ago, SunStorm said:

I think it would be disappointing, but also realistic to expect a delay in other new releases, including the sons of Behemat.

Even before the lockdown, I understand production capacity was almost maxed out. Then the lockdown shut the factory down for months. 

Lots of items on the webstore are out of stock and so they'll need to be running to restock, as well as the extra Indomitus boxes they're going to need to make for the made to order. 

 

I'm already anticipating a September release. I think its quite realistic considering it's only mid July now.

 

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59 minutes ago, Greasygeek said:

I think I speak for all Nighthaunt players when I say we are very much looking forward to that FAQ. Not because of our points but because we might loose some of the only descent aggressive battalions we got just six month ago. In addition we might also loose the option to play Legion of Grief. Nothing indicates how GW are going to handle these and as you hopefully agree the Nighthaunt is in a very tight spot already we seriously do not need to loose some of the few tools we have that occasionally works. Not looking for sympathy here but GW guys seriously.. Wtf are you doing?

Warscroll builder was updated today and includes the NH battalions from White Dwarf, so I would assume those are usable still despite not being in GHB 2020, otherwise I do not know why they would update Warscroll builder with those battalions and their points.

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42 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Except...

1) it isn't even good business, all the profit those second hand resellers are getting could be profit for you from selling the models yourself.

2) most of the cost is the design and moulding process, printing the models and packing them is a much smaller cost. So again by not meeting demand they lose out.

I'm not a business expert or anything, but I can at least address this to an extent. There are definitely considerations that need to be made for making, shipping, and storing material combined with a healthy dose of risk management. Just to go through a basic exercise:

You have a product that costs 50 dollars to make and you can sell for 100 dollars. If you make 1,000 units and sell all of them, you've made 50,000 profit. Now, lets say you make 2,000 units and sell 1,500. True your revenue is up to 150,000, but due to your increased costs of making the additional product your profit is still the same at 50,000. In addition, you now have to store the additional 500 units until they're sold, which could be an incredibly slow process if you've already eliminated primary demand. Now you might say why didn't they make 1,700 units instead of 2,000, but the demand might be extremely difficult to judge (maybe a global economic crisis caused by a pandemic has skewed predictions?). In the end the best practice is to try to get as close to the actual numbers of purchases as possible without going over to fully maximize profits. 100% of product sold means no losses due to excess production or storage. 

Obviously they undershot the mark on this product and most of the past limited runs as well, but it makes perfect sense that these box sets are designed to sell out from a business side. Certainly not ideal for the customers that miss out though. 

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37 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Except...

1) it isn't even good business, all the profit those second hand resellers are getting could be profit for you from selling the models yourself.

2) most of the cost is the design and moulding process, printing the models and packing them is a much smaller cost. So again by not meeting demand they lose out.

3) Why would you cheer lead for shareholders and be happy that genuine hobbyists are missing out? What is even the point of a comment like the one you just made.

1) GW are a sight more  good at buisness than you and me. They are frankly geniuses in that department.  You do not know better than them what the best strategy is. On this occasion, for all intents and purposes GW have managed to not only make sure they sell a copy to everyone who wants one with Made to Order , they have increased the number of people who do by virtue of selling out and making it even more desirable, and also sold masses to scalpers. 

To clarify: they have sold out entirely of the game they have produced in by far the greatest quantities ever, are taking bespoke orders for more (thereby ensuring they dont produce more than they need to and lose out there) but you think it's bad buisness? Mhm.

2) See above. 

3) I haven't cheered for anyone. I haven't applied any morality to the discussion. I haven't said its good that GW are doing what they are doing or that I agree with it. By and large I despise capitalism and shareholders and scalpers in particular. I would trade the existence of GW  for a fairer society in a heartbeat. 

But in the current context:

Hobbyists arent missing out. Everything that has been a limited run availble initially for general releases has been made available at a later stage, including Indomitus. 

But whenever the issue of GW and the morality of pricing,  limited runs etc come up, I simply point out they explicitly, as their own stated first intention, intend to make money all over the world. That is why they exist. That is why they make what they do and how they decide how to price, market and sell it.

And as a result of understanding the terms of engagement GW set I am never disappointed, because they *always* follow that.

You said it's a joke that GW are selling what they are as limited edition. No it's not. It's e timely rational, logical and predicable, completely in keeping with what is making them crazy money, crazy money which is allowing them to produce the AOS products you want and like hand over fist , among other things. 

If GW pursued buisness the way you say you want them to in your post, focussing more on ethics and less on the ruthless profiteering they pursue openly and without apology, AOS would look very different, and be far more sparse in its content. 

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23 minutes ago, Nos said:

1) GW are a sight more  good at buisness than you and me. They are frankly geniuses in that department.  You do not know better than them what the best strategy is.

Just because it works doesn't mean its the best way. I make money in my business. Could definitely improve for example ;) 

Also doesn't mean I disagree with you. For me it's all about the communication. Just wanted to point that out. 

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26 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

I'm not a business expert or anything, but I can at least address this to an extent. There are definitely considerations that need to be made for making, shipping, and storing material combined with a healthy dose of risk management. Just to go through a basic exercise:

You have a product that costs 50 dollars to make and you can sell for 100 dollars. If you make 1,000 units and sell all of them, you've made 50,000 profit. Now, lets say you make 2,000 units and sell 1,500. True your revenue is up to 150,000, but due to your increased costs of making the additional product your profit is still the same at 50,000. In addition, you now have to store the additional 500 units until they're sold, which could be an incredibly slow process if you've already eliminated primary demand. Now you might say why didn't they make 1,700 units instead of 2,000, but the demand might be extremely difficult to judge (maybe a global economic crisis caused by a pandemic has skewed predictions?). In the end the best practice is to try to get as close to the actual numbers of purchases as possible without going over to fully maximize profits. 100% of product sold means no losses due to excess production or storage. 

Obviously they undershot the mark on this product and most of the past limited runs as well, but it makes perfect sense that these box sets are designed to sell out from a business side. Certainly not ideal for the customers that miss out though. 

I’m ignorant, but I don’t see why they can’t do a run and then a “made to order” like they’re doing now. The moulds are made, the product is designed. It would completely sewer the scalper market and ensure all profit flows to them, without the potential risk. 
 

Or - open pre orders on a certain day and then announce if you haven’t ordered by day X you’ll be out of luck. Then just make that many plus a percentage extra for shops. 
 

I dunno, it seems solvable to me, more so than how it’s been. 

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28 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

Warscroll builder was updated today and includes the NH battalions from White Dwarf, so I would assume those are usable still despite not being in GHB 2020, otherwise I do not know why they would update Warscroll builder with those battalions and their points.

Thanks mate, but I am not sure that is validating since WSB has been known to forget stuff and make mistakes. Like they already did on the new updates. Note, according to WSB we can no longer pick deathlords as allies. Thankfully the GHB disagree.

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1 hour ago, Nos said:

1) GW are a sight more  good at buisness than you and me. They are frankly geniuses in that department.  You do not know better than them what the best strategy is.

No I'm sorry, but they really aren't. 

What GW has is an insanely loyal fanbase that will afford them infinite chances when they mess up (which is often), in a market in which they have something close to (but not exactly typical) a monopoly. That they were still making a profit even during the worst of the Kirby era should tell you that much and AoS' very existence to this day is a testament to that. No other wargaming company could have done such an abysmal handling of killing one of their flagship games, completely botch the launch of the replacement and still come out making millions years later.

 

Edited by Clan's Cynic
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36 minutes ago, Nos said:

1) GW are a sight more  good at buisness than you and me. They are frankly geniuses in that department.  You do not know better than them what the best strategy is. On this occasion, for all intents and purposes GW have managed to not only make sure they sell a copy to everyone who wants one with Made to Order , they have increased the number of people who do by virtue of selling out and making it even more desirable, and also sold masses to scalpers. 

To clarify: they have sold out entirely of the game they have produced in by far the greatest quantities ever, are taking bespoke orders for more (thereby ensuring they dont produce more than they need to and lose out there) but you think it's bad buisness? Mhm.

2) See above. 

3) I haven't cheered for anyone. I haven't applied any morality to the discussion. I haven't said its good that GW are doing what they are doing or that I agree with it. By and large I despise capitalism and shareholders and scalpers in particular. I would trade the existence of GW  for a fairer society in a heartbeat. 

But in the current context:

Hobbyists arent missing out. Everything that has been a limited run availble initially for general releases has been made available at a later stage, including Indomitus. 

But whenever the issue of GW and the morality of pricing,  limited runs etc come up, I simply point out they explicitly, as their own stated first intention, intend to make money all over the world. That is why they exist. That is why they make what they do and how they decide how to price, market and sell it.

And as a result of understanding the terms of engagement GW set I am never disappointed, because they *always* follow that.

You said it's a joke that GW are selling what they are as limited edition. No it's not. It's e timely rational, logical and predicable, completely in keeping with what is making them crazy money, crazy money which is allowing them to produce the AOS products you want and like hand over fist , among other things. 

If GW pursued buisness the way you say you want them to in your post, focussing more on ethics and less on the ruthless profiteering they pursue openly and without apology, AOS would look very different, and be far more sparse in its content. 

I don't work in retail, I'm in financial services. However, I work in customer relations and have a certain level of insight into delivering a successful customer experience.

We are constantly running surveys and gathering information from our brokers and clients. When a new product is launched we have a very accurate picture of how it will sell and how long it will take to turn a profit. We also try to forsee any pain points in advance and what kind of response will be needed.

GW seems to frequently make mistakes that would be seen as critical failures in my company. Their fan base and, as another poster said, near monopoly allows them to make errors most businesses can't afford.

That doesn't mean any of us should cheer them on or not put pressure on them to change.

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27 minutes ago, badnewsbeers said:

I’m ignorant, but I don’t see why they can’t do a run and then a “made to order” like they’re doing now. The moulds are made, the product is designed. It would completely sewer the scalper market and ensure all profit flows to them, without the potential risk. 
 

Or - open pre orders on a certain day and then announce if you haven’t ordered by day X you’ll be out of luck. Then just make that many plus a percentage extra for shops. 
 

I dunno, it seems solvable to me, more so than how it’s been. 

Yeah like I said I'm not an expert or anything, but I'd like to see it handled better too. Pure made to order (like with pre-orders) would be an issue because it takes quite a while to make these boxes and get them to the customer. People get excited, order the box, and then it takes 4 months to get? Decent chance some will cancel their order after a month when the hype dies down and then GW is stuck in the same situation with leftover product. Actually from my limited view, I think their hybrid of a limited initial run and opening up made to order is probably the best compromise so hopefully they keep it up in the future. 

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I'm glad GW is making 9th Edition made to order to nip the scalpers in the bud, that being said I hope AOS gets some articles or something soon. 

The latest Warhammer Community Podcast is fantastic, having the Lore Lord Phil Kelly on to talk about the Lumineth was perfect as I was hoping they wouldve had him on Stormcast Podcast as he was for the OBR. I think that Podcast wont come out now as I'm sure other things are mentioned in it that arent happening at this time.

I just hope he comes back and does one for the Sons of Behemat!!

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54 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

No I'm sorry, but they really aren't. 

What GW has is an insanely loyal fanbase that will afford them infinite chances when they mess up (which is often), in a market in which they have something close to (but not exactly typical) a monopoly. That they were still making a profit even during the worst of the Kirby era should tell you that much and AoS' very existence to this day is a testament to that. No other wargaming company could have done such an abysmal handling of killing one of their flagship games, completely botch the launch of the replacement and still come out making millions years later.

 

Two things

1) I agree that the fanbase is loyal to a fault, but theres a reason for it, that loyalty comes from somewhere, it's not patronage that they just happen to bestow on GW instead of something else. They're loyal because GW has worked out how to get it to them.

In many instances other fanbases would have given up in the same circumstances receiving the same product in the same overpriced logistically weird manner, I agree, but this one haven't. It's not GW's fault the fanbase dont seem to have much in the way if discernment or restraint, and force company whose sole aim is to make money, they'd be idiots not to capitalise on it.  GW do what needs to be done given their audience. 

2) GW intend to make money. They make loads of it. That's the end of the argument really in that respect. Dosent matter how they do it, they do it and theres not another miniature company on earth has ever come with in one hundred miles of them, let alone come close. They're not short of competition but they routinely annihilate it by investing in the things that make them money. That takes brains.

They also do it completely in the face of what seems to make sense to most people in the hobby. In many senses they *ignore* what the customer asks for, and convinces them they want whatever else they're making, and then sell that at profit year on year. Sorry but theres few companies in any field have mastered that to such a consistent degree. It's absolutely a rare genius in that sense. 

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56 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

I don't work in retail, I'm in financial services. However, I work in customer relations and have a certain level of insight into delivering a successful customer experience.

We are constantly running surveys and gathering information from our brokers and clients. When a new product is launched we have a very accurate picture of how it will sell and how long it will take to turn a profit. We also try to forsee any pain points in advance and what kind of response will be needed.

GW seems to frequently make mistakes that would be seen as critical failures in my company. Their fan base and, as another poster said, near monopoly allows them to make errors most businesses can't afford.

That doesn't mean any of us should cheer them on or not put pressure on them to change.

All companies with monopolies tend to make more errors than other companies. They have a monopoly, so it dosent matter they're not a small business, so they can afford it.

Within business mistakes are an issue if they affect your capacity to turn a profit or maintain your power, but not only has this not occured with GW, they're getting bigger and richer year on year. Mistakes are a matter of life, it is impossible to do everything perfectly, but the ones GW makes are so vanishing compared to the returns of what they get through what they do know and what does appeal to consumers, it dosent matter comparatively.

And again I haven't once cheered them on. Just pointed out the naivety of believing a company whose first aim is to make money globally and turn a profit year on year is suddenly going to consider ethical sales practices or not exploiting people who for whatever reason are happy to perpetually pay more money for the same thing.  

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5 hours ago, HollowHills said:

To be fair for some of the armies I don't think there is any reason to update points. For instance, Tzeentch and KO only saw a couple of events and those were before they got the release errata. Seraphon hasn't seen any I don't think. Personally I would delay updating their points until Dec 2020.

Also how many people are actually playing regular matched play right now? There are no immediate tournaments, most shops are still closed for gaming. There is no desperate need for balance updates.

The points updates for Stormcast require significant points updates for Cities. It's not even close.

Compare a Battlemage with a Lord Exorcist, or Battlemage on Griffin with a doublecasting Arcanum on ugly griffin.

Seraphon and Tzeench have proven that other points adjustments are needed as well.

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2 hours ago, HollowHills said:

I don't work in retail, I'm in financial services. However, I work in customer relations and have a certain level of insight into delivering a successful customer experience.

We are constantly running surveys and gathering information from our brokers and clients. When a new product is launched we have a very accurate picture of how it will sell and how long it will take to turn a profit. We also try to forsee any pain points in advance and what kind of response will be needed.

GW seems to frequently make mistakes that would be seen as critical failures in my company. Their fan base and, as another poster said, near monopoly allows them to make errors most businesses can't afford.

That doesn't mean any of us should cheer them on or not put pressure on them to change.

This 100%

The fact that they are having to produce these sets made to order at increased cost to avoid a massive pr disaster is telling. 

Also its worth remembering this is a starter set, they aren't big money spinners per box, they make money by introducing people to the game/armies and the real money is made on the non discounted units and special models plus all the paints, rule books tomes/codex accessories etc that come after. 

 

GW didn't make any money when I got back into warhammer and i purchased the storm strike set. They made money from me purchasing the other 2k points worth of units for my sce and 1k in units for my wife's NH, plus paints, battletomes and the new generals handbook and then I got into Seraphon... 

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