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4 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

And just to add, they always had this aspect, just not as pronounced, and a bit changed. The Caledor Dragons could be seen as Earth/Fire spirits which the elves awoke with their singing. It's very similar in a way. And they always bonded very strongly with their land (be it Ulthuan or Athel Loren). It's a new twist on things, but it also builds up nicely on existing lore. In my view at least. 

Caledor Dragons should come back but in Malerion army. Teclis and Tyrion were never about dragons. Malerion was and we must remember that Imrik sided with him and became his most trusted general after Malekith returned all dragons eggs. So it makes much sense to include them in Malerion army. 

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9 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

I still don’t get the cows. I mean, dragons and phoenixes and white lions are elegant and magical beasts, quite fitting to be associated with an elven army. But cows? Also, with Hashut and Slaanesh and Bullgors, isn’t there already enough cow imagery in AoS? 

White Lions ? They were primal, agressive and very wild in the old lore. I think magical cow is more elegant then White Lion. 

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Think less dairy cow and think more bull, auroch, bison - the wild cattle. The cow gets a bit of a poor reputation in the west as its mostly been relegated to a source of meat and milk and not much more. Yet in the past they were more the work-horse for farmers and the countryside than the classic draft horse. You'd be more likely to have a cow to pull your plough and ride than a horse. 

Meanwhile the wild auroch and other similar breeds were powerful wild animals. It's only heavy domestication and over-hunting that has wiped them out (along with the wild horse). 

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11 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

I still don’t get the cows. I mean, dragons and phoenixes and white lions are elegant and magical beasts, quite fitting to be associated with an elven army. But cows? Also, with Hashut and Slaanesh and Bullgors, isn’t there already enough cow imagery in AoS? 

The Yak (not just a cow) is often used as an animal symbolizing steadfastness and stoic resolve. 

I'm getting a massive "mist of Pandaria" aesthetic vibe mixed with oldschool elves. If I ever paint these models, I would be going for a more jade/teal green colourscheme because of that. 

Anyway, that eastern inspired expansion did have different animals associated with different combat roles. I suspect this army might go for a similar route... We'll probably see another elemental aspect (water would be my guess) next week. 

 

AugustCelestials.jpg

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16 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:I still don’t get the cows. I mean, dragons and phoenixes and white lions are elegant and magical beasts, quite fitting to be associated with an elven army. But cows? Also, with Hashut and Slaanesh and Bullgors, isn’t there already enough cow imagery in AoS? 

Well if you say cows, then yes. But if you listened to the explanation they gave, these are not just cows, but undying partly magical beasts which live on high mountain slopes. You can also look at the masks, the face almost looks feline. They could look quite elegant when we see them in the art. 

As a joke the cow thing is fine, but that’s not what they are really talking about. 

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Rereading The Great Betrayal since I'm locked in, the opening prologue shows the Dwarfs in there prime fighting with the Elfs against Deamons (before the Elves great betrayal) and man that is how I want an AoS Traditional Dwarf Army. They have Giant Golems roaming around, the runemasters are causing earthquakes and best of all Snorri Whitebeard has rune encrusted weapons throwing lightning bolts and teleporting around the battlefield Thor style.

 

Just some musings and wishings 

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Yeah, there's a good thematic basis for oxen/bulls/aurochs to be associated with these mountain spirits. Being stoic, solid, calm, resolute, dutiful, unyielding. This isn't coming from nowhere. Turning this to "lol cow elves" across the internet is not unexpected but still disappointing and an indictment of a lot of folks' ability to look beyond the meme version

Symbols don't just have one set of connotations and can be used for different thematic purposes, which is kind of design 101. Lions, for example, have those associations of being regal, noble and distinguished (which is the mould they were used in for the High Elves) but look at Homer and the language associated with lions puts near-exclusive emphasis on their savagery, hunger and wildness. 

The associations of oxen/aurochs/whatever with the mountain-Lumineth is different from that used for Hashut (the Near Eastern god Moloch, sacrifice, some of the dwarf virtues of strength and robustness) or Slaanesh (fertility, images of cattle festooned with garlands, that whole "ox-eyed beauty" Hellenic thing).

Edited by sandlemad
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7 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

Well if you say cows, then yes. But if you listened to the explanation they gave, these are not just cows, but undying partly magical beasts which live on high mountain slopes. You can also look at the masks, the face almost looks feline. They could look quite elegant when we see them in the art. 

As a joke the cow thing is fine, but that’s not what they are really talking about. 

Plus, to walk around with those helmets, the elves need some pretty beefy bullnecks themselves.

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35 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Plus, to walk around with those helmets, the elves need some pretty beefy bullnecks themselves.

Imo, that's not the point of that helmets. I think their design is all about 2 main points (well, that's not true, but nobody knows what the main designers/lead designers wanted to accomplish with them, so...):

  1.  How they look on the table (everybody talks about their headgear, but what about their mallets...?).
  2. Unique design. Something what Para Bellum did with their own elfs. But Spires could be taken to any other setting like Warhammer Fantasy and be OK  with their own style (being 100% grounded helps a lot!!), but Lumineths with their cow-gear and Cow-Dudes are really unique even if they are just basic (and classic) elfs.

I'm not sure if this release will accomplish that, only time will tell. Could they do anything diferent? Of course, but it's pointless to talk about that.

Btw, I'm not sold with the normal elfs (archers, spearmen and horses), Imo they don't bring anything to AoS that we didn't have before (they seems to be a High Elf remake, just remove their headgear and stamp some cones to their heads) BUT I really like the Mountain Spirits. 

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I can fully see the bull, aurochs etc as a symbol for raw power and mass, steadfastness and resolve. Not exactly the traits that I associate with elves.

And yes, they were stylized to make them more elegant looking. Which actually empathizes the initial mismatch between the associative framework that I feel, and that the designers seem to have felt too, regarding that they tried to mitigate it.

Why, I might ask myself, make cows more catlike when  they could have chosen a more catlike animal as a design basis  in the first place?

But in the end of the day, tastes differ. 😊

Edited by Beastmaster
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24 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Imo, that's not the point of that helmets. I think their design is all about 2 main points (well, that's not true, but nobody knows what the main designers/lead designers wanted to accomplish with them, so...):

  1.  How they look on the table (everybody talks about their headgear, but what about their mallets...?).
  2. Unique design. Something what Para Bellum did with their own elfs. But Spires could be taken to any other setting like Warhammer Fantasy and be OK  with their own style (being 100% grounded helps a lot!!), but Lumineths with their cow-gear and Cow-Dudes are really unique even if they are just basic (and classic) elfs.

I'm not sure if this release will accomplish that, only time will tell. Could they do anything diferent? Of course, but it's pointless to talk about that.

Btw, I'm not sold with the normal elfs (archers, spearmen and horses), Imo they don't bring anything to AoS that we didn't have before (they seems to be a High Elf remake, just remove their headgear and stamp some cones to their heads) BUT I really like the Mountain Spirits. 

I was mostly trying to cram two bovine puns in a sentence while criticising the impossibly awkward armour.

I always try to know how something works. From taking apart electronics to learning how to brew beer and studying i:33 when roleplaying a fighter. The same with art. Everything I make, should portray something that can work. This simply doesn't.

I am sold on the normal elfs, and even the wizard with horns. They look like they could walk around in that gear. These don't.

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7 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Everything I make, should portray something that can work. This simply doesn't

That's the point. This release is not about you, it's about what GW/lead designer want to accomplish (appart from making profit). 

Edited by Beliman
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6 minutes ago, Beliman said:

That's the point. This release is not about you, it's about what GW/lead designer want to accomplish (appart from making profit). 

You are correct, of course, and with again jumping in the deep end of just making shapes instead of portraying something, their profit must come from other sources than my pockets. With every release, AoS feels less and less like the model line for me.

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8 minutes ago, Beliman said:

That's the point. This release is not about you, it's about what GW/lead designer want to accomplish (appart from making profit). 

Yeah, and here we discuss whether and why we like it or not. And the sum of likes makes the sales numbers.

So what’s the problem? 😊

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2 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

Yeah, and here we discuss whether and why we like it or not. And the sum of likes makes the sales numbers.

So what’s the problem? 😊

The problem is that some critics of these models sounds like they think other people should not like them because they don't like them.

And for me personally there is something weird in expecting sensible weaponry and armour in Warhammer -  that's not what any form of this game ( be it fantasy or sci-fi)  is known for. For me it's like expecting apples to taste like chicken.

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8 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

Yeah, and here we discuss whether and why we like it or not. And the sum of likes makes the sales numbers.

So what’s the problem? 😊

There isn't any problem, I'm part of the community discussing them.

8 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

You are correct, of course, and with again jumping in the deep end of just making shapes instead of portraying something, their profit must come from other sources than my pockets. With every release, AoS feels less and less like the model line for me.

I'm with you (they are not for me too). Even if they were the best elven miniatures on the market, they are still not dwarfs. 

Btw, The Old World or even other AoS armies are more grounded and more realistic. Imo, this armies have the best books to read.

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10 minutes ago, michu said:

The problem is that some critics of these models sounds like they think other people should not like them because they don't like them.

And for me personally there is something weird in expecting sensible weaponry and armour in Warhammer -  that's not what any form of this game ( be it fantasy or sci-fi)  is known for. For me it's like expecting apples to taste like chicken.

It’s a discussion that is going on in the whole fantasy community in the last years. I think it came with the clashing of the massively stylized manga weapon/armor style with the HEMA trend of looking at actual history for design ideas. I understand both sides and find it always refreshing and interesting to see those discussions. Difficult for a designer to please everyone, though. The Lumineth are interesting in that regard since they seem to be split between those two camps. 
 

Maybe it’s the right time to split between AoS and Oldworld. Can’t please them both.

Edited by Beastmaster
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8 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

Maybe it’s the right time to split between AoS and Oldworld. Can’t please them both.

That won't stop some people. See Kislev and Ice Guard when people ignore that ice weapons were already used in WFB by yhetees and what human faction should have them if not the subjects of Ice Queen.

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