The Rumour Thread

[Overread]

It might mean that they are lot further off on release than we expected. 

[swarmofseals]

I've looked over the new warscrolls. While we can't judge without knowing the points values, Chaos Warriors are definitely "better" now with a better reroll to save and better rerolls to hit with paired weapons. The basic weapon profiles are also better. I'm not sure I am interpreting this correctly, but the wording on the warscroll sure looks like you can mix and match weapon options within the unit given that it says the unit is composed of any number of Chaos Warriors "each armed with one of the following options" as opposed to, for example, the Freeguild Guard warscroll which reads "the unit is armed with one of the following weapon options."

The endless spells all look potentially powerful, although the star is a bit wonky as the buff happens at the end of the turn but applies only until that player's next hero phase. So if you kill models in your turn and then get a double turn you won't get any benefit. You only get the benefit during your turn if models die during your opponent's turn and then you take the next turn. You'll get the benefit during your opponent's turn if they follow your turn, of course, but they can avoid the problem by retreating in that case. They can also avoid giving you the buff during your turn simply by avoiding combat near the icon during their turn. Of course sometimes your opponent will be forced to fight near the icon, and making them choose between retreating and facing bonus attacks is still useful. It's just that it won't often work the way you'd want it to.

The Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore is much more powerful with significant improvements to both the weapon profiles and the signature spell.

The one warscroll that I really dislike is Chaos Knights. The design is poor, particularly given the monopose kit in the new box. The champion's flail option is mathematically worse than the ensorcelled weapon (and benefits less from bonus attacks). You basically never want to take the flail, but unless I am misunderstanding the SC box will force you to build the champion with an inferior weapon. The lances are also dicey. They are better than the blades on the charge, but not by a lot. Using rend weighting they are about 25% better on the charge. They are much worse if you aren't charging though. Blades are 165% better if you aren't charging. So for the lances to be better, you'd need to be charging during 7 activations for every 1 activation that you aren't charging. And of course the new kit is lances only.

I think you see the same kinds of problems in the Ossiarch kits, where some weapon options are pretty clearly better than others and sometimes the optional weapons are either extra overhead for miniscule in game difference or actually worse than the basic options. This is in stark contrast to Cities of Sigmar and Orruk Warclans, where there are usually justifications for using each setup (with a few exceptions) and optional bonus weapons are usually clearly worth taking.

[michu]

1 minute ago, swarmofseals said:

They are much worse if you aren't charging though. Blades are 165% better if you aren't charging.

Isn't that the problem with most of "charge" weapons?

[swarmofseals]

1 minute ago, michu said:

Isn't that the problem with most of "charge" weapons?

No, not really. There are plenty of examples like this, but there are also examples where the benefit is closed to balanced with the downside such that both options are viable.

[michu]

1 minute ago, swarmofseals said:

No, not really. There are plenty of examples like this, but there are also examples where the benefit is closed to balanced with the downside such that both options are viable.

Looks like two different designers with different ideas (unfortunately, one is a bad idea). Well, maybe Battalion will offer some help.

[michu]

Small question - what do you think, will the Rohan scenery (at least palisade) fit into the AoS? I know it's smaller scale but maybe with scenery it's not that noticeable.

[JackStreicher]

Alright I‘ve tumbled through all of the warscrolls.

Without counting in Battalions and Allegiance Abilities no Warscroll looks  really strong apart from the gaunt summoner. 
I am a bit confused especially about the weapon damag values : The best weapon overall always seems to be the ensorcelled weapon with 3+,3+,-1,1 all the other weapon options lose too many attacks, hit too badly and or are conditional. Every 2+ dmg weapon loses at least one rend (most are rend zero) - surprising especially since it seems fine for Orcs to be 2+,2+,-1, +1 damage for entire hordes...

So far the Warscrolls are a bit too tame and the new Krakadrak Chaos Lord made me go „Meh?“, Knights and Varanguard made me go „meh“ very hard...I expected more reliable punch.

However there were some nice changes to the Slaughterbrute, the Mutslith changebeast and marauders. I haven‘t had a look at the chariots since I am personally not interested in them.

the whole army has several ways to grant +1 to wound, hit, +1–3 to charges and Rerolls to armour saves and all hits and wounds, yet it lacks in damage and rend.

it has mortal wound shrugs of 5+ on most units.

summarized weaknesses according ONLY to the warscrolls: A lack of High damage attacks (2+ Dmg) weakness to rend, almost no access to good rend (2+). No Warscroll feels really strong. Too many units can grant similar buffs which makes some abilities redundant (a lot of +1 to hit and wound and rerolls).

summarized strengths: A high volume of attacks with substantial buffs to hit and wound. (+1 mostly but most stats are 3+, 3+ anyway), high armor, mortal wound resistance.

 

Sidenote: The Warcry warbands haven‘t changed afaik

 

I am now very interested in what additional rules the Allegiance Abilities will add!

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by JackStreicher
Added a weakness

[Mutton]

Marauders seem quite good now. Also, some of those Daemon Prince marks are incredible. I might be running one of those Daemon Council armies.

[Raviv]

If I remember correctly, the Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount used to have a special bonus depending on its Mark. This bonus is gone now.

[Ryan Taylor]

1 hour ago, Boytoy said:

seems odd that spire tyrants would be there, but scions aren't

I'll say what I said earlier in this thread. GW does not put models into books they have not shown. So the tyrants have been show. the Scions have not. 

 

Even if they are not on general release if they have been in a box set or previewed they will be in books. 

[shinros]

57 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Alright I‘ve tumbled through all of the warscrolls.

Without counting in Battalions and Allegiance Abilities no Warscroll looks  really strong apart from the gaunt summoner. 
I am a bit confused especially about the weapon damag values : The best weapon overall always seems to be the ensorcelled weapon with 3+,3+,-1,1 all the other weapon options lose too many attacks, hit too badly and or are conditional. Every 2+ dmg weapon loses at least one rend (most are rend zero) - surprising especially since it seems fine for Orcs to be 2+,2+,-1, +1 damage for entire hordes...

So far the Warscrolls are a bit too tame and the new Krakadrak Chaos Lord made me go „Meh?“, Knights and Varanguard made me go „meh“ very hard...I expected more reliable punch.

However there were some nice changes to the Slaughterbrute, the Mutslith changebeast and marauders. I haven‘t had a look at the chariots since I am personally not interested in them.

the whole army has several ways to grant +1 to wound, hit, +1–3 to charges and Rerolls to armour saves and all hits and wounds, yet it lacks in damage and rend.

it has mortal wound shrugs of 5+ on most units.

summarized weaknesses according ONLY to the warscrolls: A lack of High damage attacks (2+ Dmg) weakness to rend, almost no access to good rend (2+). No Warscroll feels really strong. Too many units can grant similar buffs which makes some abilities redundant (a lot of +1 to hit and wound and rerolls).

summarized strengths: A high volume of attacks with substantial buffs to hit and wound. (+1 mostly but most stats are 3+, 3+ anyway), high armor, mortal wound resistance.

 

Sidenote: The Warcry warbands haven‘t changed afaik

 

I am now very interested in what additional rules the Allegiance Abilities will add!

 

On the warcry warbands:For god sake GW! You had one job! One! 

Edited December 6, 2019 by shinros

[Souleater]

I note that the new Chaos Warriors "...come with a mix of Male and female faces."

 

[GeneralZero]

No more car mammoth

And more suprising: no more chaos gargant 😕

 

[Overread]

1 hour ago, michu said:

Small question - what do you think, will the Rohan scenery (at least palisade) fit into the AoS? I know it's smaller scale but maybe with scenery it's not that noticeable.

It would be a bit small for some of the bigger races, but for a general scenery for mortal humans it would work fine I'd imagine. 

[Kurrilino]

3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Alright I‘ve tumbled through all of the warscrolls.

Without counting in Battalions and Allegiance Abilities no Warscroll looks  really strong apart from the gaunt summoner. 
I am a bit confused especially about the weapon damag values : The best weapon overall always seems to be the ensorcelled weapon with 3+,3+,-1,1 all the other weapon options lose too many attacks, hit too badly and or are conditional. Every 2+ dmg weapon loses at least one rend (most are rend zero) - surprising especially since it seems fine for Orcs to be 2+,2+,-1, +1 damage for entire hordes...

So far the Warscrolls are a bit too tame and the new Krakadrak Chaos Lord made me go „Meh?“, Knights and Varanguard made me go „meh“ very hard...I expected more reliable punch.

However there were some nice changes to the Slaughterbrute, the Mutslith changebeast and marauders. I haven‘t had a look at the chariots since I am personally not interested in them.

the whole army has several ways to grant +1 to wound, hit, +1–3 to charges and Rerolls to armour saves and all hits and wounds, yet it lacks in damage and rend.

it has mortal wound shrugs of 5+ on most units.

summarized weaknesses according ONLY to the warscrolls: A lack of High damage attacks (2+ Dmg) weakness to rend, almost no access to good rend (2+). No Warscroll feels really strong. Too many units can grant similar buffs which makes some abilities redundant (a lot of +1 to hit and wound and rerolls).

summarized strengths: A high volume of attacks with substantial buffs to hit and wound. (+1 mostly but most stats are 3+, 3+ anyway), high armor, mortal wound resistance.

 

Sidenote: The Warcry warbands haven‘t changed afaik

 

I am now very interested in what additional rules the Allegiance Abilities will add!

 

Where can i see those warscrols?

[smartazjb0y]

22 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

Where can i see those warscrols?

On the Games Workshop site, go to the unit's page and go under "Downloads" 

[JangutzKhan]

Ok. Some problems I still have: 

- Chosen still only have 2 wounds (wtf) 

- Manticore Lord has the same CA that only affects warriors 

-  Varanguard shields nerfed from a 4+ to 5+ spell save

- Lord on foot still 4+ save 

 

Good: 

- Improved warscrolls for Chariots, Warshrine (massive), daemon princes (massive), Archaon. 

[Nighthaunt Noob]

5 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

 

The one warscroll that I really dislike is Chaos Knights. The design is poor, particularly given the monopose kit in the new box. The champion's flail option is mathematically worse than the ensorcelled weapon (and benefits less from bonus attacks). You basically never want to take the flail, but unless I am misunderstanding the SC box will force you to build the champion with an inferior weapon. The lances are also dicey. They are better than the blades on the charge, but not by a lot. Using rend weighting they are about 25% better on the charge. They are much worse if you aren't charging though. Blades are 165% better if you aren't charging. So for the lances to be better, you'd need to be charging during 7 activations for every 1 activation that you aren't charging. And of course the new kit is lances only.

 

How does the champion's extra attack work with the flail?

[Grimrock]

1 hour ago, JangutzKhan said:

Ok. Some problems I still have: 

- Chosen still only have 2 wounds (wtf) 

- Manticore Lord has the same CA that only affects warriors 

-  Varanguard shields nerfed from a 4+ to 5+ spell save

- Lord on foot still 4+ save 

 

Good: 

- Improved warscrolls for Chariots, Warshrine (massive), daemon princes (massive), Archaon. 

Don't forget the marauders, their buffs are absolutely massive. Double the attacks, guaranteed +1 to hit and -1 rend at 20+ models, minimum 8" charge with a drummer. Toss in a sorcerer lord for full rerolls to hit, wound and save, a chaos lord for double activation... if they stay at 120 points for 20 I think they're in the running for best battleline in the whole game. Chaos sorcerer is amazing too, the change to his spell and oracular vision are ridiculous. I'm waiting to see points, but I'm loving these changes.

[Sigwarus]

A gaunt summoner i tzeencth summoning 10 pinks Free (!)

[Waiyuren]

2 hours ago, Sigwarus said:

A gaunt summoner i tzeencth summoning 10 pinks Free (!)

If he stays at 180, he'll be insane. 😅

[EccentricCircle]

10 hours ago, michu said:

Small question - what do you think, will the Rohan scenery (at least palisade) fit into the AoS? I know it's smaller scale but maybe with scenery it's not that noticeable.

It looks like it should be ok. Lotr stuff is theoretically 25mm to warhammer's 28mm, but in practice the main difference is that the models are more realistic, with fewer cartoon y sculpts or oversized models. Scenary is scenary, so there tends to be less exaggeration. Some over the oversizdd aos models like stormcast and orcs might be too tall for the palisades, but most humans, elves etc should be fine.

[HollowHills]

I'd suggest everyone take a look at two warscrolls in particular. Chaos Sorcerer Lord and Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore. The vanilla sorcerer is giving a unit reroll failed saves (all the time) and reroll all hits and wounds with a cast on 6 spell. The Manticore Lord has a horde killing spell like no other, presuming I read it right. One dice for each model in the enemy unit and five up is a mortal (good but not amazing), however sixes are d3 mortal wounds. This could absolutely annihilate powerful horde units like Witch Elves and Plague Monks. 

Also note that Archaon now has the hedonites keyword, not just Slaanesh, meaning in a Slaanesh army he gains locus of diversion. 

Daemon prince of Khorne looks like a must take for BoK armies to me. Basically gives you an 18 inch defence against  deepstrike and charge while always fighting first. 

Overall my initial thoughts would be to take lots of marauders and buff them up with rerolls and fighting twice (from vanilla lord on foot). You could even do this by taking those units in a nurgle army with the glottkin for extra fun.  

[GeneralZero]

30 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Overall my initial thoughts would be to take lots of marauders and buff them up with rerolls and fighting twice (from vanilla lord on foot). You could even do this by taking those units in a nurgle army with the glottkin for extra fun.  

Before initial thoughts, there is the pre-initial thought which is "don't take anything before you get a better scope of the whole thing". We don't have yet the bataillons, relic, stuffs that synergize the army etc... But I just bought the new SC and the ES just because I want them to modernize my StD army (and I want this new chaos lord on beast)

[Scurvydog]

Just from reading warscrolls everything seems pretty good, although many weapon options for the individual units seem poorly balanced against each other, usually always 1 setup outshines the other by far, and everything with the word "flail" looks super bad.

The stars from what I think right now with this limited overview:

Demon prince - wow this guy is crazy, add in marks and aura of chaos for more nastyness, straight up strike first no matter what on a 3+ save flying hero, wow. The real kicker is the command abilities, especially Khorne and Nurgle stand out to me. Khorne can completely shut down a whole bunch of things, this guy can protect a big part of the table from any deep strikers and many charges by himself with little issue. As nurgle the d3 mortal wounds when being hit on 6s is super nasty.

Lord of Chaos - At first glance he is just a semi decent hero on foot, but the command ability allows a unit to fight again in the combat phase and he seems to be the only guy with this command. Take a moment to consider how important these types of command abilities are in the meta. Remember Archaon is mortal too... this lord can ask Archaon to try harder and fight again.

Chaos warshrine - This is both a totem and priest, so I might expect to see even more goodies in the book for priests, but the base scroll alone looks good, it is rather fighty now and tough, gives 6++ saves and great buffs depending on marks, flat out reroll to hit or +1 save for example.

Chaos warriors - Those 3+ mortek guard with reroll saves you love? now see these guys of nurgle in 20 man blobs backed with warshrines. they now reroll saves when 10 or more and not just 1s. Give them +1 save. Maybe use a demon prince to give them that sweet d3 mortal wounds when hit on 6s and dare your opponent to even try killing them.

Other good stuff as well, marauders looking like a super decent meatshield. Knights all around fine benefitting from a great command ability from the mounted lords (+1 hit and reroll charge). 

Edited December 7, 2019 by Scurvydog