The Rumour Thread

[Deepkin]

53 minutes ago, xking said:

AoS is not "grimdark"  and is not trying to be,

Speak for yourself. MY AoS is definitely grimdark. So is the AoS of Ex Profundis, Gardens of Hecate, Josh Reynolds (read Dark Harvest) and so on.

 

(also I agree with JackStreicher. god is dumb, hail Satan!)

[Horseburner]

5 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

That‘s a bit too 40k angelic (mini-Angels everywhere) though I like the artist‘s style.

 

I‘d prefer if they drew less inspiration from Christianity since Christianity is in my opinion stale as hel (thx to every horror or mystery movie being about the classic devil, angels, god, god, god, god 🤢🤮, Jesus and all the other uninspired Apokalypse plots).

This is rather off topic but I thinks it's a fun one nonetheless. It should as always be taken with a grain of salt.

You think you're being all clever and original with your new storytelling. In fact, you're not. From Shakespeare to Spielberg to Soderbergh, there are really only seven different types of stories.

Christopher Booker, in his book Seven Basic Plots, hypothesizes that seven archetypal themes recur in all kinds of storytelling. It should be noted that his perspective in the book is mostly directed at practical use. Making ads or telling a captivating story, not necessarily the history behind it. Booker looked at why humans are psychologically programmed to imagine stories this way. This get way weirder when we start to define what makes a character at its core and how few of them there actually really are, which is what makes depth as important as it is. Tiny events that ripple through the archetypes journey. Or maybe they should be seen as tiny scratches made by time on a car.

Anyhow my point is that it's not as simple as "WRItTe a NEw sTOriE" or "tAKe inSPIRAtiOn fRoM SomEWHeRE eLSE". The abrahamic religions and the stories contained within are at the foundation of modern man, even if you're not religious.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Horseburner
Wording.

[dmorley21]

Hi everyone.

Does the content for upcoming White Dwarf magazines usually get previewed? If so, when does that happen?

I'm curious as it seems like there might be some Nighthaunt content in the upcoming magazine. 

I figured this was the thread to ask as previews are usually covered in this thread.

Thanks. 

[JPjr]

@dmorley21 yes, in fact it should be up later today (since the release date switch earlier in the year the preview is now always on the 1st Friday of the month, unless that first Friday is also the first day of the month in which case the preview is then on the 2nd Friday).

I genuinely think that's the nerdiest thing I've posted here in the last 12 months, which is saying something.

[Saiken]

Do you think we're going to see more previews before the pre-order hits for Slaves to Darkness. 

I feel like we know quite a bunch and very little at the same time. 

Like : other new units ?

[Deepkin]

22 minutes ago, Horseburner said:

This is rather off topic but I thinks it's a fun one nonetheless. It should as always be taken with a grain of salt.

You think you're being all clever and original with your new storytelling. In fact, you're not. From Shakespeare to Spielberg to Soderbergh, there are really only seven different types of stories.

Christopher Booker, in his book Seven Basic Plots, hypothesizes that seven archetypal themes recur in all kinds of storytelling. It should be noted that his perspective in the book is mostly directed at practical use. Making ads or telling a captivating story, not necessarily the history behind it. Booker looked at why humans are psychologically programmed to imagine stories this way. This get way weirder when we start to define what makes a character at its core and how few of them there actually really are, which is what makes depth as important as it is. Tiny events that ripple through the archetypes journey. Or maybe they should be seen as tiny scratches made by time on a car.

Anyhow my point is that it's not as simple as "WRItTe a NEw sTOriE" or "tAKe inSPIRAtiOn fRoM SomEWHeRE eLSE". The abrahamic religions and the stories contained within are at the foundation of modern man, even if you're not religious.

Booker's book is not that great. It makes some pretty massive generalizations and then contorts all evidence to fit it. Its searching for some sort of universality to human art, when indeed art is particular and subjective, and always evasive of objective criteria. Its the same sort of thing Joseph Campbell did, repackaged in a slightly different frame. It takes one author's personal interpretations and cultural expecations, and assumes them to be universal by making claims so broad and vague that they can be tailored to sorta kinda fit anything (just like religion! funny, that). Its like the meme "all foods are either soups or sandwiches," except some people sincerely believe it and think its some sort of literary revelation. 

The Abrahamic religions are not the "foundation of modern man" (whatever that means), and particularly not when one considers most of the worlds population does not follow one of those religions, or come from an area that follows said religions.

 

[Chikout]

22 minutes ago, Saiken said:

Do you think we're going to see more previews before the pre-order hits for Slaves to Darkness. 

I feel like we know quite a bunch and very little at the same time. 

Like : other new units ?

I don't think there are any remaining surprises in the book. The only question is whether we will see the Scions of the Flame or not. 

[Overread]

Don't forget there's already 3 new monsters through warcry and two warbands (of which one we've seen) to add to Slaves. That's already a lot in AoS terms ontop of the warbands already added and the new leader. I'm more surprised that GW isn't pushing out new warrior and knight kits fast on the heels of the getting started set; but at the same time I don't think we'll have to wait too long before we do see them. 

Not having warbands as battleline is a bigger surprise, however its also somewhat pleasing that GW doesn't appear to be removing anything from Slaves. Though we likely won't know for total certain until tomorrow. 

 

 

As for the "7 stories in the world" thing. Eh if you boil most stories down into their most basic components they can all end up sounding very similar. But its such a contrived situation and over simplification that also tends to totally overlook both the journey (you know the actual story) and the aspect of blending layers into stories by mixing them in between each other (subplots) etc.... To me its a silly way to look at writing because it removes so much. I think its a useful tool for construction within teams though - I know that Pixar and similar studios will indeed work within formulas of story construction and presentation for the cinema screen. It's a far bigger thing there because the story has a very finite time frame to work within, so to do it well you've got to understand story construction. And that's where I'd say its best - these kind of tools and viewpoints are good for building a story framework to build off; but not as useful to work back from when tearing a story down. 

 

As for source material its fairly clear that with AoS, GW is open to reaching into multiple real world elements and fantasy myths and legends to construct their world. I'd even argue that in many ways AoS is so casual with much of its lore construction that its actually open to quite a lot of personal interpretation based on whoever is creating the media. A writer or artist might well take the bare bones of what we've got and add their own spin to it. The Realm system even plays into that - its so infinite that there likely are Chambers of Stormcast who would feel very Christian in their depiction and style; yet others which would feel far more Norse based or even from other cultural backgrounds - depending on the twists and themes that the creator works with. 

[PaniuBraniu]

3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Christianity nonsense

 

You really shouldn't have written that, this forum was supposed to be for everyone.

[PaniuBraniu]

double post

Edited December 6, 2019 by PaniuBraniu
Double post

[Horseburner]

1 hour ago, Deepkin said:

Booker's book is not that great. It makes some pretty massive generalizations and then contorts all evidence to fit it. Its searching for some sort of universality to human art, when indeed art is particular and subjective, and always evasive of objective criteria. Its the same sort of thing Joseph Campbell did, repackaged in a slightly different frame. It takes one author's personal interpretations and cultural expecations, and assumes them to be universal by making claims so broad and vague that they can be tailored to sorta kinda fit anything (just like religion! funny, that). Its like the meme "all foods are either soups or sandwiches," except some people sincerely believe it and think its some sort of literary revelation. 

The Abrahamic religions are not the "foundation of modern man" (whatever that means), and particularly not when one considers most of the worlds population does not follow one of those religions, or come from an area that follows said religions.

 

I never said his book was great, I even wrote that it should be taken with a grain of salt. But we can't overlook the fact that we can't tell more than X types of different stories, which was my point. How are you supposed to tell a fictional creation myth or the following events without taking inspiration from real life? Or other religions in this case. You even agree that religion is subjective. I would not count practicioners as the only way to measure religious influence over time. I firmly believe that most religious stories influence eachother and are older then the written versions which makes this discussion sort of a dead end.

This sort of went of the rails, I'm glad to continue somewhere else.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Horseburner
Spelling.

[Overread]

Yeah I think its time for Lore Chatter to go its own thread! 

 

ALSO lets leave out the religious criticism for real world religions please. By all means compare and contrast, but leave out opinions on the real world religions. 

[Deepkin]

20 minutes ago, xking said:

The AoS setting is not considered "grimdark",  The setting having some dark elements in it does not mean  the setting can be called "grimdark".    

Says you. Look at Chaos, or the Deepkin, or the reality of Nagash, or the Daughters of Khaine. Sigmar literally has a secret police devoted to rooting out religious and political dissidents and murdering them. Look at the Knights Excelsior.

There are sufficient grimdark elements to call it grimdark. If you want to ignore them, thats fine, its a big setting. But you don't get to define the setting for others.

[Deepkin]

22 minutes ago, Horseburner said:

I never said his book was great, I even wrote that it should be taken with a grain of salt. But we can't overlook the fact that we can't tell more than X types of different stories, which was my point. How are you supposed to tell a fictional creation myth or the following events without taking inspiration from real life? Or other religions in this case. You even agree that religion is subject. I would not count practicioners as the only way to measure religious influence over time. I firmly believe that most religious stories influence eachother and are older then the written versions which makes this discussion sort of a dead end.

This sort of went of the rails, I'm glad to continue somewhere else.

Fair enough

[HorticulusTGA]

1 minute ago, Deepkin said:

Says you. Look at Chaos, or the Deepkin, or the reality of Nagash, or the Daughters of Khaine. Sigmar literally has a secret police devoted to rooting out religious and political dissidents and murdering them. Look at the Knights Excelsior.

There are sufficient grimdark elements to call it grimdark. If you want to ignore them, thats fine, its a big setting. But you don't get to define the setting for others.

Neither do you. 

And what xking means, is that GW authors themselves insist that in comparison to other GW settings, AOS is less grimdark than, for example, WFB or 40k was/is. Even with the Soul Wars story arc. 

The Realmgate Wars, the new "multiracial" alliances made by Sigmar's forces and the enduring-against-all-odds Cities of Sigmar are proofs of that. 

[michu]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/12/06/white-dwarf-preview-decembergw-homepage-post-3/

Be afraid Archaon! Gotrek is coming to Varansp-I mean Warcry!!

There are also rules for Lady Olynder's personal army.

New spellcasting minigame and new skyfaring minigame EDIT: Small correction - description on the index photo does not actually say that it's a WD-only minigame. It most likely is but maybe it's Man'o'War in the sky?

And a converting, painting and basing guide - Eightpoint edition!

Edited December 6, 2019 by michu

[Overread]

Red mod poke

Come on lore/background chatter off to its own thread please. 

[Deepkin]

Just now, HorticulusTGA said:

Neither do you. 

And what xking means, is that GW authors themselves insist that in comparison to other GW settings, AOS is less grimdark than, for example, WFB or 40k was/is. Even with the Soul Wars story arc. 

The Realmgate Wars, the new "multiracial" alliances made by Sigmar's forces and the enduring-against-all-odds Cities of Sigmar are proofs of that. 

Im sure xking can speak for himself without outside interpreters. His posts arent the Bible, they dont need exegesis. 

He didnt say "less grimdark." He said "NOT grimdark," full stop. Less grimdark is still grimdark. Joe Abercrombies The First Law is less grimdark than R. Scott Bakker's The Second Apocalypse. Fantasy was less grimdark than 40k. Doesnt mean they are suddenly not grimdark just because something else has more of the same elements.

Im fine with people focusing on the less grim elements of AoS. But when you say that it is definitively NOT grimdark, thats where I take issue.

1 minute ago, xking said:

I don't get you what your emotional responses, anything we say on these forms is obviously going to be an opinion. I don't consider age of Sigmar to be "grimdark" because unlike 40K, it being dark is not a Core theme. The knights Excelsior are exception, not the rule. And Sigmar's secret police eliminating chaos cults is the right thing to do. 

Any emotion you read into my responses is your own problem. I assure you, I am quite calm. We are talking about plastic toy soldiers and the words written about them. Im not worked up at all. If you're feeling emotional, then I dont know what to tell you.

[Overread]

6 minutes ago, michu said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/12/06/white-dwarf-preview-decembergw-homepage-post-3/

Be afraid Archaon! Gotrek is coming to Varansp-I mean Warcry!!

There are also rules for Lady Olynder's personal army.

New spellcasting minigame and new skyfaring minigame EDIT: Small correction - description on the index photo does not actually say that it's a WD-only minigame. It most likely is but maybe it's Man'o'War in the sky?

And a converting, painting and basing guide - Eightpoint edition!

Gotrek in Warcry will be interesting! Also makes me think that GW really needs to hurry up and make a Malaneth model - Gotrek needs a companion in the realms (and not one of those pesky fickle broken stormcast he keeps collecting like pets ;))

It also reads like he might be a lone wolf type character - ergo on his own against the warbands. So potentially super powerful and killy and hard to kill but also very hard to play as he's only one character on his own against the darkness of the warbands. 

[CommissarRotke]

is there a consensus about the new tree rumor being 40k or AOS? Some of these rumor pics feel like they could be AOS aelves OR 40k Exodites... if GW wants to actually expand 40k xenos that is.

[HorticulusTGA]

13 minutes ago, Deepkin said:

Im sure xking can speak for himself without outside interpreters. His posts arent the Bible, they dont need exegesis. 

He didnt say "less grimdark." He said "NOT grimdark," full stop. Less grimdark is still grimdark. Joe Abercrombies The First Law is less grimdark than R. Scott Bakker's The Second Apocalypse. Fantasy was less grimdark than 40k. Doesnt mean they are suddenly not grimdark just because something else has more of the same elements.

Im fine with people focusing on the less grim elements of AoS. But when you say that it is definitively NOT grimdark, thats where I take issue.

Any emotion you read into my responses is your own problem. I assure you, I am quite calm. We are talking about plastic toy soldiers and the words written about them. Im not worked up at all. If you're feeling emotional, then I dont know what to tell you.

Sorry, he is not alone in this feeling, it was quite unpleasant to discuss with you (to think we are on a Hobby forum.... *sigh*) :  

Because you first were stating disrespectful and frankly off topic opinions on religion, then you argued in bad faith with xking, accusing him of selecting only some fluff elements to define what the setting is, while doing exactly the same thing by focusing only on the dark elements. And finally with me, by stating I can't come back on what xking said. You then proceed, again, to do just that. And I can do that because -  unlike you - I already had those fluff discussions with him so I know his general opinion on the matter, and I add the opinion of the setting's authors. Please don't try to namedrop us, we are in the rumors thread, not on some literary circle. 

So let's try to behave differently and discuss in a civil manner in the right thread  

_____

Very interested to see the December's WD article on the Eightpoints ! Right in time for StD. 

The mini-game looks interesting too, strange how GW loves to focus on the Battlemage kit so much .... 

[michu]

2 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

The mini-game looks interesting too, strange how GW loves to focus on the Battlemage kit so much .... 

I'm not surprised - they are fantastic sculpts and there are always left over bits. I just hope we will be able non-CoS wizards, my Warlock Engineer also want to play (and loot everything).

[Spears]

Any word on if the Olynder batallions are Nighthaunt or Legions of grief?

[michu]

Nope, no informations but I think they will be Legion of Grief as they represent Lady Olynder's personal host.

[Deepkin]

12 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Sorry, he is not alone in this feeling, it was quite unpleasant to discuss with you (to think we are on a Hobby forum.... *sigh*) :  

Because you first were stating disrespectful and frankly off topic opinions on religion, then you argued in bad faith with xking, accusing him of selecting only some fluff elements to define what the setting is, while doing exactly the same thing by focusing only on the dark elements. And finally with me, by stating I can't come back on what xking said. You then proceed, again, to do just that. And I can do that because -  unlike you - I already had those fluff discussions with him so I know his general opinion on the matter, and I add the opinion of the setting's authors. Please don't try to namedrop us, we are in the rumors thread, not on some literary circle. 

So let's try to behave differently and discuss in a civil manner in the right thread  

 

🙄