The_Yellow_Sign Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said: Ahem. This new army is an ugly mess of Tyranid and Necron assets mashed together though. If these are the new Tomb Kings, then I'm Rameses IV. Edited August 30, 2019 by The_Yellow_Sign 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Lyons Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, The_Yellow_Sign said: This new army is an ugly mess of Tyranid and Necron assets mashed together though. If these are new the Tomb Kings, then I'm Rameses IV. So, lets get this straight: We have a non-western predominantly bone-based army with necromantic constructs and skeletal catapults, who have a robust culture of honor (bone tithe contracts for example) and vaguely Egyptian imagery (hieroglyphics and cartouches [which are distinctly Egyptian I might add]) mixed with other eurasian cultural elements (but not enough that it can be tied to any one culture in our world, something that make it immanently IP-protectable), and are lead by an ego-manical leader who won't even deign to fight the peasants unless they prove themselves worthy...and you don't see any remagined, AOS-ified TK in that? At all? 16 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiagoma Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Nope, not really 6 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svnvaldez Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said: So, lets get this straight: We have a non-western predominantly bone-based army with necromantic constructs and skeletal catapults, who have a robust culture of honor (bone tithe contracts for example) and vaguely Egyptian imagery (hieroglyphics and cartouches [which are distinctly Egyptian I might add]) mixed with other eurasian cultural elements (but not enough that it can be tied to any one culture in our world, something that make it immanently IP-protectable), and are lead by an ego-manical leader who won't even deign to fight the peasants unless they prove themselves worthy...and you don't see any remagined, AOS-ified TK in that? At all? People have seen the below picture yes? Clearly they are not copy and pasted TK for AOS like Gloomspite... but come on, of course they are the spiritual successor. Heck you could even use the below picture for a guide for "count as models" and it wouldn't be that confusing on what model is what. 12 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Yellow_Sign Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said: So, lets get this straight: We have a non-western predominantly bone-based army with necromantic constructs and skeletal catapults, who have a robust culture of honor (bone tithe contracts for example) and vaguely Egyptian imagery (hieroglyphics and cartouches [which are distinctly Egyptian I might add]) mixed with other eurasian cultural elements (but not enough that it can be tied to any one culture in our world, something that make it immanently IP-protectable), and are lead by an ego-manical leader who won't even deign to fight the peasants unless they prove themselves worthy...and you don't see any remagined, AOS-ified TK in that? At all? Yeah I think you're definitely reaching. If you showed the models to someone unfamiliar with Warhammer, then "Egyptian skeletons" is definitely not the first thing (or second, or third, ...) that would come to mind. 3 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiagoma Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 15 minutes ago, svnvaldez said: People have seen the below picture yes? Clearly they are not copy and pasted TK for AOS like Gloomspite... but come on, of course they are the spiritual successor. Heck you could even use the below picture for a guide for "count as models" and it wouldn't be that confusing on what model is what. Sorry, but other than the catapult, i dont see all that similarity. Using a bunch of TK bits you could make proxies, but that is about it. 5 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeen77 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 I think they could have put out anything with skeletons of multiple sizes and people would have screamed Tomb Kings. As it is, non-Western looking is enough. Will this play like Tomb Kings? Because if we're talking spiritual successors that's where the heart of it lies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 hour ago, madmac said: They're much more Tomb Kings than most people give credit for. A big part of old Tomb Kings lore is that unlike the mindless minions of the Vampire Counts, even the lowliest skeleton soldier of the Tomb Kings had a soul, memories, at least a portion of the mortal prowess they had in life, ect. They had constructs animated with souls, they had an organized army with archers, artillery, and so on. Even the new special character seems designed to capture a bit of ol Settra. No, not the "Settra does not serve" bit, but Settra in his time was often called the Alexander the Great of the Old World, the brilliant tactician and leader who conquered most of the ancient world before finally, reluctantly succumbing to death. The details are different, but in broad strokes the new death army is absolutely calculated to fill the niche left behind by Tomb Kings. Gotta love how people cherry pick some few aspects of the Tomb Kings to support their claims and ignore everything else. No wait, it's actually becoming somewhat annoying. Tomb Kings also have a heavy egyptian theme, are heavily based on their past as mortal kingdom (including their whole religion in addition to their general culture), are all about reclaiming what they once possessed, an army of skeletons (not bone constructs, yes that's a big thematical difference) that do warfare the same way they did when they were alive, aka light cavalry, light chariot cavalry, archers, disciplined rank&file infantry, constructs made of all kinds of material for the more exotic units that differ from how they used to do warfare, about dozens of kings that used to be the closest thing to the gods when they were alive suddenly walking around all at the same time and only getting put in order by Settra. Speaking of Settra, he was not just a strong leader, he was a wrathful one who went into battle on his chariot personally to smite everyone standing before him. He was NOT the calm tactician sitting behind his army waiting for the enemy to come to him. I agree that this new army has the militaristic thing going on and it's undeniable that they are all bones. They are also based on a more exotic culture for us western people. That's basically all they have in common. Instead they do have a bunch of things going that are simply not Tomb Kings. The whole mongolian/samurai aesthetic is super far away from Tomb Kings, creating bone constructs for their soldiers is not Tomb Kings (it's always been just monsters and statues of their gods), stealing bones from other cultures is not Tomb Kings (it was a long and complicated ritual done to a kings personal army after he died that allowed them to rise again with the Nehekharan own special kind of necromancy. Using other cultures undead is a strictly VC thing to do), putting multiple souls in one warrior is not Tomb Kings (in fact putting any souls into constructs is not), being more of a heavy infantry and heavy cavalry is not Tomb Kings, serving Nagash/being allied with Vampires is not Tomb Kings. There are other armies who also have a things in common with Tomb Kings, though none has the package that made Tomb Kings Tomb Kings. The broad strokes are supposed to fill the niche left behind by Tomb Kings? If that's true then GW did a very poor job at that since it still leaves an incredible amount of niches left behind by Tomb Kings open and only fills some very few ones. 3 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 I think we should not all let our enjoyment of Tomb Kings, an old army that is no longer produced, get in the way of the potential enjoyment of another awesome and new army that I am sure took bits from TK as well as other areas of the Warhammer universes. While yes, there are familiarities, and also complete differences, I think we should not start out comparing it to something that is as relevant as Brettonians in matched play and instead, wait for the rest of the models, wait for the rules and judge it on its own merit. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutton Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 After pages of comments I can only suggest we change the faction name from Bonereapers to Schrodinger's Tomb Kings. 7 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charleston Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Painting them gold, using them for Hammers of Sigmar and calling it the "Bonecast Eternals" Chamber sounds also like a way to embrace them 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Charleston said: Painting them gold, using them for Hammers of Sigmar and calling it the "Bonecast Eternals" Chamber sounds also like a way to embrace them Use them for Settrus and the Imperishables to complete the mockery and ****** of as many people as possible. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 8 hours ago, Travis Baumann said: I really hope the design team took some effort to figure out how they interact with LoN if they allow them on board because to make these guys a really strong stand alone army and then incorporate the best of that into LoN might be Grim Reapers x10. I understand the LoN players wanting to have some of these new toys but at the same time, I kind of hope they cannot be included and that they are meant to always be an outlier on the far end of Nagash's reach. I'm actually hoping there will be some cross-over and clever use of keywords. I think this cross-over is one of the things that makes Death a really interesting Grand Alliance and unique from the other Grand Alliances out there - broadly speaking all undead creatures within the Mortal Realms are beholden to Nagash so it makes perfect sense to have some kind of mixture. As I've said before I think the way to control that is to have a different pitched battle profile for other Allegiances - e.g. Grimghast Reapers could have been limited to a maximum size of 20 in a non-Nighthaunt army, which would have gone some way to helping curtail the problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarryk Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 I can't help but feel the grinning heads are Nagash poking fun at the sullen Stormcast masks which makes me like them a bit more. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezzhil Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Another day without info about the most important faction: Destruction. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 3 hours ago, Panzer said: Gotta love how people cherry pick some few aspects of the Tomb Kings to support their claims and ignore everything else. No wait, it's actually becoming somewhat annoying. Tomb Kings also have a heavy egyptian theme, are heavily based on their past as mortal kingdom (including their whole religion in addition to their general culture), are all about reclaiming what they once possessed, an army of skeletons (not bone constructs, yes that's a big thematical difference) that do warfare the same way they did when they were alive, aka light cavalry, light chariot cavalry, archers, disciplined rank&file infantry, constructs made of all kinds of material for the more exotic units that differ from how they used to do warfare, about dozens of kings that used to be the closest thing to the gods when they were alive suddenly walking around all at the same time and only getting put in order by Settra. Speaking of Settra, he was not just a strong leader, he was a wrathful one who went into battle on his chariot personally to smite everyone standing before him. He was NOT the calm tactician sitting behind his army waiting for the enemy to come to him. I agree that this new army has the militaristic thing going on and it's undeniable that they are all bones. They are also based on a more exotic culture for us western people. That's basically all they have in common. Instead they do have a bunch of things going that are simply not Tomb Kings. The whole mongolian/samurai aesthetic is super far away from Tomb Kings, creating bone constructs for their soldiers is not Tomb Kings (it's always been just monsters and statues of their gods), stealing bones from other cultures is not Tomb Kings (it was a long and complicated ritual done to a kings personal army after he died that allowed them to rise again with the Nehekharan own special kind of necromancy. Using other cultures undead is a strictly VC thing to do), putting multiple souls in one warrior is not Tomb Kings (in fact putting any souls into constructs is not), being more of a heavy infantry and heavy cavalry is not Tomb Kings, serving Nagash/being allied with Vampires is not Tomb Kings. There are other armies who also have a things in common with Tomb Kings, though none has the package that made Tomb Kings Tomb Kings. The broad strokes are supposed to fill the niche left behind by Tomb Kings? If that's true then GW did a very poor job at that since it still leaves an incredible amount of niches left behind by Tomb Kings open and only fills some very few ones. Descriptions like "Spiritual successor", "Tomb kings in AoS", "Tomb kings updated to 11", etc... are so ambiguous that everyone can have diferent perspective. I'm not saying that they are the new Tomb Kings, but I understand what some people are talking about. We know that GW wants to create unique aesthetics to TM/copyright their products, so it's a bit logic that a popular referense will not be used (at least, not for something that wants to be 100% new). Knowing that, if we discard anything about mummies and egyptian mythos of Tomb Kings we will have... a lot of work. About their Lore, they only need a bit of the feeling of the old Tomb Kings. Like you said, they have that militaristic thing going on, they seems to not be mindless skeletons, Katakros seems to be close to a "king of kings" (an emperor only behind a god), bone constructs (going all in), an undead army with a war-machine (catapult) and we don't know what mechanics are going to have (hierpohants!!!). It's enough to be the new Tomb Kings? Maybe not. It's enough to be an Spiritual Successor? For you, it's clearly not enough. For others... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michu Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 34 minutes ago, Tarryk said: I can't help but feel the grinning heads are Nagash poking fun at the sullen Stormcast masks which makes me like them a bit more. I saw photos of infantry - their bone pauldrons are painted with their shield colour and they definitely look like ScE. Look Spoiler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scurvydog Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 A strange discussion going on with wether or not the new faction is taking the mantle of tomb kings or not. Clearly many passionate old shool Tomb King players, I even have a 2k army of them myself harking back from when they first released. I don't get the hardline going on though, that this new army does not have anything in common with Tomb Kings, it reminds me of the Marvel fandom discussing Peter Parker spiderman vs Miles Morales spiderman. The new guys are clearly their own thing, but also clearly inspiried of what was before in some core concepts, yet completely their won in the current setting and fluff. The focus on constructs is clearly a parallel to Tomb Kings, nothing is a copy paste here, but the general idea of fusing piles of bones to do specialized tasks is the same and not really present in the other death armies. Most death armies have rather mindless minions with only the heroes having any personality, the Tomb Kings had minds of their own, these guys have at least 1 or several. How they identify with their faction, leaders and the world in general is completely different, but the sentient undead idea is an important common denominator. The military structure is also somewhat similar compared to other death armies, as we can already see these guys appear much more like a coherent military force with advanced war machines to support them and specialized troops, rather than the ragtag hordes, ghosts and monsters of the other death armies. There are more points, but all in all I can see why die hard Tomb Kings fans refuse these as "taking the mantle", they are clearly their own thing, but they are also very much inspired by some key concepts the Tomb Kings originally introduced to Warhammer lore and now reintroducing them (the concepts) in a new form to AoS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeryenn Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 14 hours ago, Nos said: No, most people use these ones https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Deathrattle-Skeleton-Warriors-2017 Not the ones that come in a box of five which says "Warhammer" on it and have square bases 23 hours ago, Aryann said: Few people argued that Skeletons are just perfectly fine and should stay. C'mon, it's just silly when you compare new vs old (the other sculpts aren't much better) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nos Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Aryann said: I mean if you can’t tell the considerable difference between skeletons that have fists as large as their heads and curtain rods for spears and the newer versions were not going to find common ground for debate here 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michu Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Exactly @Scurvydog. Someone accused people, that named similarities of Bonerippers and TK, of nitpicking. That's just not true. It was GW that picked those parts of TK they thought are worth bringing back. We were never going to have egyptian themed skeletons back. In the first Voxcast Jes Goodwin said that just taking an aesthetic of one culture is a bad design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadmund Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 I can't wait for some more detail about the Cities battletome to come out so I can read another 3 pages of discussion in this thread about what it means for Tomb Kings. 2 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeryenn Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 21 minutes ago, Nos said: I mean if you can’t tell the considerable difference between skeletons that have fists as large as their heads and curtain rods for spears and the newer versions were not going to find common ground for debate here I wasn't comparing old Deathrattle Skeletens with old Deathratlle Skeletons. I was comparing both of them vs Ossiarch. The other (round bases) are better, yet still much worse than new Ossiarch infrantry IMHO. The amount of detail and overall quality of the sculpts are waaay better in what OBR have to offer. I wish GW did the same with basic infrantry of DoK and GG - I mean, don't mix new and old models to create new/updated faction. The gap is too huge but you are free to have your own opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilberfrid Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 31 minutes ago, michu said: In the first Voxcast Jes Goodwin said that just taking an aesthetic of one culture is a bad design. Luckily, Freeguild already was Landsknechts with Da Vinci mechanics, pajama's and steam. That should be the perfect base to expand on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michu Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Remember that they were originally from WFB, which was more like fantasy version of our Earth, so it was more justified. AoS is something different and NEW factions won't be using just one culture as their inspiration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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