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1 minute ago, WoollyMammoth said:

yeah legion of grief i mean. what is that?

I don't know context someone said they heard this stuff but doesn't remember source

The unboxing article on Warhammer Community mentioned that the Forbidden Power book will have rules for Legion of Grief:

"a new Legion of Nagash led by Lady Olynder herself who allow you to combine the terrifying might of the Nighthaunt’s full roster with Bravery-manipulating game mechanics, gravesites and more…"

 

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4 minutes ago, Warfiend said:

The bridge sounds pretty nice for ironjawz, move units across the bridge first and then make their hero phase move to get of an almost guaranteed charge.

Looks like the order doesn't work for that.  The bridge movement happens in the Movement phase, not the hero phase.

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1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

@Skreech Verminking @Greasygeek I suppose a lot depends on how big the model is.  Here are some examples with a 105x70mm base:

58 25mm bases wholly within 3" (i'm sure 60 is doable)

  Reveal hidden contents

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30 32mm bases wholly within 3"

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5BUN2tvSSKt7UjLGviuGaIpc_ogT0TAI0T-G4b6SwUGT3S-KFOtu400N-okxfYMgwMb32WgecuwfVjWAkCSEi0O06M7o7rFIlgIbshoAuaIcN01My0tRcbmL_7058eAfCEUO_lyXCxlRmQC8QcHlQ8Y4v5xCack4OkrP5SmCI3e02Up8UjJA3mW3belgwzFl-DRQl8s41W0I9aBZLwfZ0DoV58d1VP3Cb-c26rbroLyLXn6aSEQ_KXTzS2NQ6tl2vZgFKvZRhHXolypJOHJGQeIGQC52Q6YQy1UF7rTB-AmgnHqjT74SuDrORM7h3Fu9i6sVvlOA05RC6kq994g0aNRNGk4VjuAaAQfeKLeV2o9_be9uQgVFRxewLs1a7J9kXBIu798k6rStyHNKteNkXdF65ty6rYT0OKyc_XFl_bbw4yoYa32AV2XomNUdAaRtrKks8kCg1K_N7_NwRKH5SMAYrreFpBsdlH4Y5PKulSHLacPcosuUsL-rfS8b4KHm_m0Ph9NTg9FzjPfGFCnVyO-gA5ZurGncuipkW2tP-_FyhkUPw4PkUdDz5vO9iQnSXVqylvEXa6paD18D5R0SAme2b8W_BJtTAGkyHdhw-bZlrjt4QFrXWfya8G8PDNSbQUl0by2CyGWKObvJIz-EDyfmL6NCLkvY=w1292-h970-no

15 40mm bases wholly within 3"

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Kq8Z7mrHpLS4PYnDnkNu-uWB1PNM8rl4t-Bb3t7_pdCq9ViRXFjiA6bYfhdpsih9li0N3NRad0q2qvjvOPbwjqWxp1tBzvBDrhR6QYDeH58oud2b1qgGMF5JMY_y79HX7vsNHdfKxEUB5SxqmI2OHJt-wjoeH9UcG-6FUn6PmtREgVSM48pTPtbzQ6_GjmrEBrO3e8FFKYaSmx_ME-vE4v7wVzqAGlVjUDiG9-GOPHkmQTp14kxUTebflqfxydwrcoVRoHCBPyfgOXMtGPeMcKE2Q2ky42-Mx8oqixP21Md3yFi7v7vxCCFqum9msz-YTRvzIz1djh1xbFvdQdevsVGgOK3UcHFcafMVel9X-Bs2nz1PdCKu13xarvIlgKKaEf97oNoN3v2tbc15hqARMopgR1h2gd3aSlf1eyNIbeJSuPfXBAwqomQfeJoGMuYI_MjlkOWWC55HLwczvb9U1uNqIpZNlPwtdhpSXmaQIqye7HxaARv8SXJqSEQ4_CDA9_bT7AI5-iQras73eHphNsvALeXn14fjEa_Cumxphd7w8ei4xrkCH1fqA7AZjOeKL0RkZjwjEEBhEuDFa2uL3E3eRVn3iJnI_DPZnyQKz8l0eW45LF9i6HYVhF_-tv99C9HtfMIVz6bKtXr7HgiRDvESOBe0l_wT=w1292-h970-no

12 50mm bases wholly within 3" -- this one is a little dicey and might be off by a few mm, but 9 is EASILY doable.

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3ExgFdeDnjZrFDV3DL-wzIBJBJohBaWFLZPZlM4faluOhGK1i1EG6EBkt2gzu-z0453tkMxCVKOPrRdHvHwHsAUo1zvqDNooLC4zpZ6N2sgCZ6Vxss0_HFgoxf9KjoypeXA_xaHWi6Em1CfhDy00GC2yU0ZM3lfPjek7TH6axziOZF4vlH0wPO4yK1jANj5dEjzpUCcDP3itLcD8pdouMWBcIF9YDHeZ6R1r3G7amoUtw8OVNtQwNVAG-t5aCJGSt_uYjBo8DCwbcNuJs-706W1uw-NzftQeI2rih56BmWCIosWeK1AVAJypU6IO4wFtENKNJJigvqtRzO8n_J7R65PzD-4xJYxPAcTRsHG6tTAMh-ipxy4CcgQfWmDiHP3MwyO7cnCx-wcUl67J_Me3sN6X_EPY2EgDSOyPCCWoEqUDdbxAj962974SkMGfZ_L40t9GXA2P-YAyJxqSHCsLRX2ZqFMxU7Ja4iTrxZ0j29lCWTPwAn9ixISDSpYawrTR6G5G0qgQF5BdYmUuLTW2aEgkHjLf-KNp770fPPGJ0BMhx7pARxrjani9UP9HdFHsLGX_olXrXNM1ZShZexNEJwI5apb4j_uQYCZ8bH9LRBF5f7EqoUqSJiUAES-UeWGYUgZESdXbdA_r4eoFPSzGzd-ZxzLBxmPr=w1292-h970-no

 

So that leaves open all kinds of possibilities -- things like Tzaangors, Bestigors, Tzaangor Enlightened, Stabbas, Plague Monks, Boingrots, Stormfiends, Bullgors, Witch Aelves, Blood Sisters... the lists goes on.

For some of these units you might balk at paying a model, but honestly that's a small price to pay to get a high offensive efficiency unit stuck in on turn 1. 

To me, something around 105x70 is the most likely base size. It could be a bit smaller (bloodcrusher size like you said) which would cut things down a bit. You'd still be able to roll with a big unit of Witch Elves, Plague Monks or other similar units, however. 

The base size could also easily be larger, which would allow nearly any unit to fit. 

EDIT: Looking at the pictures again I think bloodcrusher size is actually reasonably possible, and the fact that the boat stick out in the front past the edge of the base will cause problems as well.

 

Now I am imagining using this to get a max sized squig herd into a target. The only unit I don't mind having when they make a battleshock test (as long as they are next to an enemy).

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Generally speaking, how is having to be 9+ inches away from enemies considered "alpha-strike" material?  Wouldn't being 9+ inches away mean that you would fail your charge roll that turn more often than not, thus not being able to alpha-strike?

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Just ran another test -- even if it's on the smallest base that I can possibly imagine (the 75mm oval, which is smaller than a skullcrusher base), you can still fit 40 25mm rounds within 3". I got 44 in 3" without optimizing too hard, so that leaves room for the prow of the ship to block a couple of models as well.

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1 minute ago, Zanzou said:

Generally speaking, how is having to be 9+ inches away from enemies considered "alpha-strike" material?  Wouldn't being 9+ inches away mean that you would fail your charge roll that turn more often than not, thus not being able to alpha-strike?

Unlike most abilities like this, I'm fairly certain you get to make a normal move afterwards. The boat should make its initial move in your hero phase, and it doesn't specify that you can't make a normal move later in the turn like the bridge does.

Edited by swarmofseals
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I'm not really sure how I feel on these. The boat is pretty strong, but I can't help but feel like any army that would really benefit from the alpha strike already has good ways of doing it. I suppose it makes the alpha more reliable for most, but still not super crazy. If khorne didn't mess with their own magic as hard as everyone else's then I'd say it would be huge for them.

The bridge is nice and the 'wholly within 6' part means you can get some bonkers movement. Good for summoning armies when you want to reposition to summon on a particular spot, and good for armies that have a lot of charge bonuses. Combo with the cogs for extra fun.

The other two are... Yeah not great. Bravery doesn't really matter in a game where any unit can just be immune for a command point, and the shards are too short range and too easy to dispel before they have an effect. Interesting note, there's no duration for their effect so if they do go off I think it lasts for the rest of the game. I'm sure that'll need an faq.

 

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2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Are there any units out there that benefit the player (or at least hurt the foe) when slain?

For instance, if you had some squigs that would explode from failed battleshock, could you maybe use the Soulseeker to create a bomb?

the only other one I can think of is that you can sacrifice a pink horror to get a blue horror when transporting them

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1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

Unlike most abilities like this, I'm fairly certain you get to make a normal move afterwards. The boat should make its initial move in your hero phase, and it doesn't specify that you can't make a normal move later in the turn like the bridge does.

Oh, I totally made the wrong assumption. Thanks!!

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I'm happy to see that the magic doesn't go the power creep route. General ES were about ranged attacks, power and a bit of control.

Those new spells are about crowd moving and control. This is a great addition. We'll see if it is a useful one later (with points/rules update/faq etc..)

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19 minutes ago, Bjornas said:

Is it possible to make out from the text if Khorne players will be able to use the new endless spells?

Not that we'd want to, ofcourse, just asking for a friend..!

Every army can use them, assuming you have a WIZARD

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3 hours ago, Grimrock said:

I'm not really sure how I feel on these. The boat is pretty strong, but I can't help but feel like any army that would really benefit from the alpha strike already has good ways of doing it. I suppose it makes the alpha more reliable for most, but still not super crazy. If khorne didn't mess with their own magic as hard as everyone else's then I'd say it would be huge for them.

The bridge is nice and the 'wholly within 6' part means you can get some bonkers movement. Good for summoning armies when you want to reposition to summon on a particular spot, and good for armies that have a lot of charge bonuses. Combo with the cogs for extra fun.

The other two are... Yeah not great. Bravery doesn't really matter in a game where any unit can just be immune for a command point, and the shards are too short range and too easy to dispel before they have an effect. Interesting note, there's no duration for their effect so if they do go off I think it lasts for the rest of the game. I'm sure that'll need an faq.

 

There are a couple of armies that can alpha now that couldn't before (like DoK or pure Pestilens Skaven), and there loads of warscrolls that can now be used to alpha that couldn't before. I've definitely thought up some spicy ideas to try with the boat -- I assure you the potential is there. Of course the ability to move after could easily get FAQ'ed away.

I think you might be missing a little on the other two as well. I think the idea with the shards is that you set it up so that enemy units are already touched by the line. It's got an effective range of approximately 18", so it's pretty plausible that you can get at least one enemy with it. It triggers during each movement phase, so the enemy unit will suffer -1 to hit during your turn's combat phase. Then, assuming the shards  don't move before your opponent's turn and assuming your opponent can't move during the hero phase, it will trigger again on those units at the start of your opponent's movement phase as well, halving their movement and giving them a hit penalty again. It's awkward but I think there is some potential there. You are absolutely right that your opponent will get a shot at dispelling it first, so it won't be reliable at blocking movement. But it should be pretty reliable at giving at least one enemy unit -1 to hit during your turn. 

The Horrorhast seems terrible until you remember that there are some factions that really benefit from bravery reductions, and adding an extra -1 or -2 on top of what already exists could make some warscrolls much better than they already are. It's certainly not going to do much in terms of battleshock, you are right about that. If it's super cheap I could see it having niche use. Also, it says "while they are within", so no need for duration. As soon as they leave the area of effect, the debuff no longer applies.

Edited by swarmofseals
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I think a lot of people undervalue bravery debuffs. It can really force your opponent to think about whether they want to guzzle up their cp's for inspiring presence or their pivotal command abilities. Remember every cp spent on inspiring presence is one less to be used on anything else.

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8 minutes ago, Mutton said:

I think a lot of people undervalue bravery debuffs. It can really force your opponent to think about whether they want to guzzle up their cp's for inspiring presence or their pivotal command abilities. Remember every cp spent on inspiring presence is one less to be used on anything else.

Agreed. You can also stack up bravery debuffs and effects that rely on bravery. If Oakenbrow  Sylvaneth can still take an Order wizard, I'll bring an Amethyst wizard and exploit horrorghast + spite-revenants to maximum effect!

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1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

There are a couple of armies that can alpha now that couldn't before (like DoK or pure Pestilens Skaven), and there loads of warscrolls that can now be used to alpha that couldn't before. I've definitely thought up some spicy ideas to try with the boat -- I assure you the potential is there. Of course the ability to move after could easily get FAQ'ed away.

I think you might be missing a little on the other two as well. I think the idea with the shards is that you set it up so that enemy units are already touched by the line. It's got an effective range of approximately 18", so it's pretty plausible that you can get at least one enemy with it. It triggers during each movement phase, so the enemy unit will suffer -1 to hit during your turn's combat phase. Then, assuming the shards  don't move before your opponent's turn and assuming your opponent can't move during the hero phase, it will trigger again on those units at the start of your opponent's movement phase as well, halving their movement and giving them a hit penalty again. It's awkward but I think there is some potential there. You are absolutely right that your opponent will get a shot at dispelling it first, so it won't be reliable at blocking movement. But it should be pretty reliable at giving at least one enemy unit -1 to hit during your turn. 

The Horrorhast seems terrible until you remember that there are some factions that really benefit from bravery reductions, and adding an extra -1 or -2 on top of what already exists could make some warscrolls much better than they already are. It's certainly not going to do much in terms of battleshock, you are right about that. If it's super cheap I could see it having niche use. Also, it says "while they are within", so no need for duration. As soon as they leave the area of effect, the debuff no longer applies.

Yeah the boat can be used for some units to alpha strike that couldn't before, but the armies themselves generally already had some access to an alpha. Skaven and daughters could both teleport units before this, but had to get around the 9" issue with rerolls/cogs. The boat helps but doesn't completely change the game for them. Not to say it's bad at all, it's really freakin good, just that it may not have a huge impact on the game.

The problem for the shards is that 18" range is so limiting. Sure you can tag a unit that's already in 18", but that leads to a few problems. If you're that close there's a good chance you can be dispelled, and if the enemy is that close (keep in mind you'll have to be able to place the second shard, probably behind the enemy unit) the movement reduction won't matter much. -1 to hit is still great, but with how difficult they are to use it likely won't work in most games. Imho anyway.

The ghast... Well I can think of some things working off bravery like a slaanesh spell or two, but there have been bravery bomb options in a number of armies for a while and I've never seen it make a splash. Even if you're using it to make spells work better, bravery 10 is pretty ubiquitous and will likely still be immune to whatever ability you're trying to use.

Edited by Grimrock
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50 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Yeah the boat can be used for some units to alpha strike that couldn't before, but the armies themselves generally already had some access to an alpha. Skaven and daughters could both teleport units before this, but had to get around the 9" issue with rerolls/cogs. The boat helps but doesn't completely change the game for them. Not to say it's bad at all, it's really freakin good, just that it may not have a huge impact on the game.

The problem for the shards is that 18" range is so limiting. Sure you can tag a unit that's already in 18", but that leads to a few problems. If you're that close there's a good chance you can be dispelled, and if the enemy is that close (keep in mind you'll have to be able to place the second shard, probably behind the enemy unit) the movement reduction won't matter much. -1 to hit is still great, but with how difficult they are to use it likely won't work in most games. Imho anyway.

The kinds of alphas that Skaven and especially DoK could do were really limited. Skaven could theoretically use a gnawhole, but the enemy knows where the holes are when deploying and can easily block you from getting at anything tasty. There are some other options for tunneling, iirc, but they are also pretty limited and costly. Meanwhile, the only units with DoK that are deepstriking are the Khinerai, and they are really not very efficient. They are definitely VERY useful for tactical reasons, but typically you can't hope to  wreck your opponent's main force on turn 1 with a Khinerai charge. And as you said, in both of these cases you are relying on cogs and charge re-rolls to get there, so it's really not reliable enough to count on as a main strategy in a tournament setting. Typically tournament players want to be able to get within 3-4" reliably before charging so that the chance of missing is really minimal. If you are trying to 5-0, you can't build your strategy around an alpha if you are counting on resolving cogs and still hitting a 7" charge every round.

I agree that the shards are awkward to use, and that may mean they don't see play. I'll freely admit that. Geminids saw plenty of play though, and the upside of a few mortal wounds is a lot less than the upside of halving your opponent's movement. It should also be a lot easier to hit multiple units with the shards. This one will need testing for sure!

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Bravery debuffs and death screams will lead to a decent amount more mortal wounds!

Death could easily get -4 bravery with basically no effort, which means an average of 3 Mortal wounds per Banshee Scream (or similar ability) against Bravery 7.

Not to mention a lot of synergies in death that affect/ play on enemy bravery.

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3 hours ago, Charlo said:

Bravery debuffs and death screams will lead to a decent amount more mortal wounds!

Death could easily get -4 bravery with basically no effort, which means an average of 3 Mortal wounds per Banshee Scream (or similar ability) against Bravery 7.

Not to mention a lot of synergies in death that affect/ play on enemy bravery.

Bravery is a bit of a silly mechanic. Everyone has access to Inspiring Presence and most armies are basically immune to checks (e.g. b10 daemons, seraphon, etc)

It wasnt that hard debuffings the ****** out of someones bravery. The problem was making it do something. Like even if i could debuff a unit -10bravery. They can just say inspiring presence and move on with the game. Heck, bravery immunity is VERY PREVALENT in the skaven book.  That along with the randomness of some armies being bravery 10+ makes it a very fluffy and inconsistent mechanic. 

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10 minutes ago, soots said:

Bravery is a bit of a silly mechanic. Everyone has access to Inspiring Presence and most armies are basically immune to checks (e.g. b10 daemons, seraphon, etc)

It wasnt that hard debuffings the ****** out of someones bravery. The problem was making it do something. Like even if i could debuff a unit -10bravery. They can just say inspiring presence and move on with the game. Heck, bravery immunity is VERY PREVALENT in the skaven book.  That along with the randomness of some armies being bravery 10+ makes it a very fluffy and inconsistent mechanic. 

Again, focusing on battleshock is not really the main substance here. I doubt anyone is going to take this endless spell or debuff bravery with the hopes of causing a few more battleshock casualties. 

Mechanics that test against the target's bravery are much more relevant. As @Charlo suggested, the various Death factions have quite a few such mechanics. There are other factions that do as well. Whether any of these mechanics are powerful enough to warrant the effort and opportunity cost remains to be seen, but it's at least possible. 

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