Shifting Model Number Bonuses

[Vextol]

I like unit size based bonuses. They're a fun way to add versatily to units without having to make new units.  However, I have never seen a unit that has bonuses based on how few models they have.  I feel like this should be a natural evolution of the units. 

I'd like to see a unit, like skeletons for instance, that get bonuses to attacks in large numbers get bonuses to speed, charge or piling in if they had less than 10 models.  

I don't like that you essentially take small units for a set number of reasons: models too $$, ran out of points, fulfilling battalion requirement without wanting the unit, or filling battleline. 

I think the game needs some advantages that you ONLY get in small numbers.  I know "easier to be wholly within" could count or things like cover and ironclads which arbitrarily set a limit but most of the time it's just worse to have less models.   Maybe get a plus 1 to hit as the unit gets smaller to represent something like chameleon skinks taking you by surprise or a plus 1 to save for a particularly fast unit that could represent an ability to dodge more easily. 

Thoughts? 

Edited June 12, 2019 by Vextol

[Skabnoze]

This is a pretty interesting idea I have to say.  I don't think it could or should apply to every unit, and you would probably want to make sure that adding benefits like this makes for compelling choices rather than simply becoming the default/preferred/best choice.  But on the whole I think you have a pretty good idea on your hands here.

[Vextol]

1 minute ago, Skabnoze said:

This is a pretty interesting idea I have to say.  I don't think it could or should apply to every unit, and you would probably want to make sure that adding benefits like this makes for compelling choices rather than simply becoming the default/preferred/best choice.  But on the whole I think you have a pretty good idea on your hands here.

Oh I agree you wouldn't want it to be every unit.  Too messy.  But I feel like we definitely need to have more "situationally good" unit quantities that aren't based solely around the idea of "more is probably better but I can't afford it". 

[JPjr]

yeah nice, I could definitely think of a few units where it might make sense for a smaller unit to have some kind of buff. 

A while ago I had thought about trying out a rule that maxed size units should have a penalty against ranged attacks (+1 to hit for the attacker maybe) as obviously you're more likely to hit something/anything when you're shooting into a blob of 40 troops, I guess a case could be made to do the reverse -1 to hit at range for certain min sized units, maybe ones that are 5 troops or less or that have some kind of scout role (actually SCOUT as a keyword with various rules is something else I've been toying with but that's for another day).

 

[Skabnoze]

14 minutes ago, Vextol said:

Oh I agree you wouldn't want it to be every unit.  Too messy.  But I feel like we definitely need to have more "situationally good" unit quantities that aren't based solely around the idea of "more is probably better but I can't afford it". 

I also like the concept that a unit might not just get strictly worse as it takes casualties but may gain some abilities and potentially shift roles.  For instance, a unit that has increased combat bonuses for larger size might gain some speed and maneuverability as it gets smaller and so maybe early on a unit like this is better used to attack the enemy or hold a critical position, but after sustaining casualties it becomes better suited to quickly hunting down other small units or running off to secure distant objectives.  This reminds me a bit of the concept used for the Mangler Squig where his degradation chart is the worst in the middle but then goes back up the closer to death he gets as he begins to frenzy.  There seems like a lot of interesting ways to use an idea like this.

[Vextol]

1 minute ago, Skabnoze said:

I also like the concept that a unit might not just get strictly worse as it takes casualties but may gain some abilities and potentially shift roles.  

That was kind of my initial thought (and why I titled it shifting bonuses) .  I don't know how clunky it would get but if it's on a unit you're already keeping track of it may be easier than not.  I need to know if I have less than 20 models.  OK, now I do, new bonus kick in. 

11 minutes ago, JPjr said:

 ... do the reverse -1 to hit at range for certain min sized units, maybe ones that are 5 troops or less or that have some kind of scout role (actually SCOUT as a keyword with various rules is something else I've been toying with but that's for another day).

That's a great idea too.  Everything is based around bonuses, it's only fitting to have a few negatives.  It's would be a nice way to balance out the current bonus to unit profiles AND a decrease in points from horde bonuses.   Also, a good buff to shooting where it really needs it.  Most people hate being hero sniped but there's not a ton of concern about their giant blocks of 40 getting shot because it isn't usually worth it (a few outliers are there of course) .  May help branch out the usefulness of shooting units. 

[Barbossal]

I like this idea - units like Vulkite Berzserkers, Khorne,  or Flagellants should fight harder when their unit sizes are depleted. So these units are even more dangerous once their fervour has spilt out onto the battlefield.

[Dead Scribe]

What you have to be careful here is that this would create an MSU meta.  Where you want to have as many min sized units as you can get.

[Vextol]

10 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

What you have to be careful here is that this would create an MSU meta.  Where you want to have as many min sized units as you can get.

Definitely a concern but if you kenw it was a possibility going into it, you could hopefully design your units away from it.  Plus, with the variety of "choose a unit" command abilities and spells out there, you'd still have serious need of some big units. 

Also, there's a bunch of "deal a mortal wound to each unit within... " abilities that are kind of terrible.  They would now actually have some value! 

Edited June 12, 2019 by Vextol

[Asensur]

You can use the new regiments of renown rules for undersized units. 

[Vextol]

16 hours ago, Asensur said:

You can use the new regiments of renown rules for undersized units. 

True but I was hoping more "warscroll-y", "matched play-y".  I do like anything that adds flair though!  

[Asensur]

1 hour ago, Vextol said:

True but I was hoping more "warscroll-y", "matched play-y".  I do like anything that adds flair though!  

It can be simple. 

Unit has 75% or less, rounding down, than its minimum size -> roll on the table. 

If unit has 50% or less, rounding down -> roll twice, choose one

If unit has 25% or less, rounding down -> roll twice, choose both. 

You still play full points for the unit. 

 

If you want poonts per models instead, use the skirmish system to calculate points. 

[Vextol]

39 minutes ago, Asensur said:

It can be simple. 

Unit has 75% or less, rounding down, than its minimum size -> roll on the table.

I love table abilities.  I think in general the community does not, but I think tables are a good way to add interesting abilities that are easily manipulated for balance purposes.   Also they can be changed rapidly and not impact whole armies for the long term. 

I don't really have an opinion on points per model.  Some goods some bads.  Mind you, that's an interesting discussion but ability wise I don't see why a point per model system is necessary. 

[TheCovenLord]

This would be a good way of buffing relatively expensive (Read Overcosted) elite infantry. 

Give them bonuses for smaller unit sizes so that they appear to be elite and get the corresponding bonuses. Maybe a real reason to use some of them over straight maxed discounted hordes.

 

Just a thought

[Kurrilino]

Blightkings -2 Rend for a unit of 5.

This i could live with

Edited June 14, 2019 by Kurrilino

[JackStreicher]

I could imagine a unit that starts at 20 models (you can only buy more not less models).

this unit has a sweetspot when it is reduced to 10. (some kind of berserkers)

Another unit could have a sweetspot at 10-15 but then gets worse again.

[JackStreicher]

doublepost -__-

damn you internet-connection!

Edited June 14, 2019 by JackStreicher