A discussion on Forbidden Power

[Skabnoze]

40 minutes ago, the_master288 said:

Price is a big factor here.  Why do we have to pay more for less?

Some products are considered core products and others are not.  Core products usually last the entire duration of a game edition.  So things like the core rulebook, the 2 player starter set, and also core supplements like Malign Sorcery.  GWs General sales pattern has been to sell those at a lower price point than other products in their game range.

Campaign books often seem to be non-core products as they sometimes stop printing them during an edition.  For non-core products like these that include both books and models the trend that I have seen is to initially sell them in a big package at a higher price point and then eventually repackage the models into different products later on.  

Look at what GW did in 40k recently with the Urban Conquest box set.  That was pretty much the same as Forbidden Power.  They sold a game supplement book and a bunch of cool urban ruins terrain that matched up with the Sector Imperialis terrain sets they make.  The obvious main draw for that product for many people was the terrain and they packaged that box for $100.  Now they have pulled that terrain out and repackaged it into a number of cheaper KillTeam boxes.

They tend to do this with most of their products.  Initially they sell them to early adopters at a premium and then they repackage them into cheaper bundle deals or individual packs later on.  They do this with armies by not making Start Collecting until a long time after initial release.  They do this with terrain sets by not making bundle collections on first release also.

If youbhave patience then you can usually get stuff cheaper down the road.  I am not saying this is the sales patterns that I would prefer - but GW is at least pretty consistent with what you can expect.

[the_master288]

Just now, Skabnoze said:

Some products are considered core products and others are not.  Core products usually last the entire duration of a game edition.  So things like the core rulebook, the 2 player starter set, and also core supplements like Malign Sorcery.  GWs General sales pattern has been to sell those at a lower price point than other products in their game range.

Campaign books often seem to be non-core products as they sometimes stop printing them during an edition.  For non-core products like these that include both books and models the trend that I have seen is to initially sell them in a big package at a higher price point and then eventually repackage the models into different products later on.  

Look at what GW did in 40k recently with the Urban Conquest box set.  That was pretty much the same as Forbidden Power.  They sold a game supplement book and a bunch of cool urban ruins terrain that matched up with the Sector Imperialis terrain sets they make.  The obvious main draw for that product for many people was the terrain and they packaged that box for $100.  Now they have pulled that terrain out and repackaged it into a number of cheaper KillTeam boxes.

They tend to do this with most of their products.  Initially they sell them to early adopters at a premium and then they repackage them into cheaper bundle deals or individual packs later on.  They do this with armies by not making Start Collecting until a long time after initial release.  They do this with terrain sets by not making bundle collections on first release also.

If youbhave patience then you can usually get stuff cheaper down the road.  I am not saying this is the sales patterns that I would prefer - but GW is at least pretty consistent with what you can expect.

You've made very good points.  I also am aware that I am biased as a player and collector of AoS to the mindset I have regarding this.  

My big comment here is that while it's not "core", it's something that would be looked at as missed opportunities to players if they don't own it.  The way I look at it is that GW is saying, well, it's not MANDATORY, but if you don't have it, then you're at a disadvantage.  In my tinfoil hat opinion, they do this knowing and then raise the price of said product to make more money on the desperation of players.

[FlatTooth]

Holy moly I think a lot of people are missing the power of some of these spells. I haven’t bought it yet because $90 is a high price tag but they’re what tempts me. I’ve heard from multiple sources that the lore is very good but I doubt it’s $90 good. 

 

I’ll get it eventually but I wish I knew what about it makes it pricier than malign sorcery. 

[JPjr]

Is it even that expensive?! I mean sure, objectively speaking from the point of view of someone outside the game looking in, then yeah maybe.

But from the inside? €70 for a book, a pretty chunky and intricate piece of terrain and 4 endless spells, 2 of which are pretty massive isn't too bad when for the exact same price I'd get just Skraggrot, a Loonboss on foot and the Fungoid Cave Shaman for my Gloomspite army. 3 models that I guess if you're looking for silver lining at least aren't contributing that much to the disgusting amount of unnecessary plastic that we're destroying this planet with.

I'm not saying it's a MUST BUY, absolutely far from it, let's face it nothing here really is, and personally I think they should have included something like one of the sprues from the Timeworn Ruins set, a bit more terrain/scenery in there would have made it look and feel very different.

But if you're into the narrative side of the game or just like collecting and painting chunky models then it's a fun addition and keeps the story moving.

Edited June 6, 2019 by JPjr

[Grimrock]

42 minutes ago, JPjr said:

Is it even that expensive?! I mean sure, objectively speaking from the point of view of someone outside the game looking in, then yeah maybe.

But from the inside? €70 for a book, a pretty chunky and intricate piece of terrain and 4 endless spells, 2 of which are pretty massive isn't too bad when for the exact same price I'd get just Skraggrot, a Loonboss on foot and the Fungoid Cave Shaman for my Gloomspite army. 3 models that I guess if you're looking for silver lining at least aren't contributing that much to the disgusting amount of unnecessary plastic that we're destroying this planet with.

Well the sheer quantity of plastic or number of models are only a minor factor when considering worth. Sure it's 4 endless spells, terrain, and a book, but if I never use 2 of the spells and the terrain then they essentially don't exist in the box. Or worse, they simply exist to waste my time assembling and painting them. I was burned by malign portents and the 8 or so spells I'll never ever use, so I'm a lot more cautious about buying endless spell stuff now.

At that price it also competes with things like start collecting boxes which have a far better value and consistent usability.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Grimrock

[Zanzou]

1 hour ago, JPjr said:

Is it even that expensive?! I mean sure, objectively speaking from the point of view of someone outside the game looking in, then yeah maybe.

But from the inside? €70 for a book, a pretty chunky and intricate piece of terrain and 4 endless spells, 2 of which are pretty massive isn't too bad when for the exact same price I'd get just Skraggrot, a Loonboss on foot and the Fungoid Cave Shaman for my Gloomspite army.

You're comparing GW's in-house products to spells and products that they outsource from China.  Even Malign Sorcery's price point would have meant good profits for GW if mass-produced from China.  Also I wouldn't call their Chinese models "intricate" in comparison to their in-house or FW.

 

EDIT: That being said, those GW models you listed in particular are very overpriced too IMO 😅  Their new pricing for single model heros is absurd as well.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Zanzou

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, the_master288 said:

You've made very good points.  I also am aware that I am biased as a player and collector of AoS to the mindset I have regarding this.  

My big comment here is that while it's not "core", it's something that would be looked at as missed opportunities to players if they don't own it.  The way I look at it is that GW is saying, well, it's not MANDATORY, but if you don't have it, then you're at a disadvantage.  In my tinfoil hat opinion, they do this knowing and then raise the price of said product to make more money on the desperation of players.

I won't argue with this.  My point was mainly that these things are really not anything new.  They have been following these patterns for quite a few years now.  I am not saying that I like this sales strategy, but we should also be able to see it for what it is and not totally fall into the hype.  In the grand scheme of things missing a relatively small update for a hobby game is not the end of the world.  If you want it THAT bad, then get it.  If it is something you don't NEED then only buy it if you want.  

We should all do ourselves a favor and realize that the Community articles, facebook posts, convention reveals, etc are all just pure marketing tools and little else.  They are meant to stoke player hype in order to shift more units of product.  I would say that in general as a consumer it is better to take a skeptical approach to the products from any company.  The society we live in and the way that corporations are legally structured means that they go for profits first and foremost the vast majority of the time.  That does not necessarily mean they are purely greedy evil things, but it means that their primary interest is not necessarily in delivering excellent value to customers and more to maximizing what they can get out of you.  Be skeptical of all of their advertising, don't fall for tactics that prey on personal desperation, and plan your purchases for what you think will best serve you.  GW is unlikely to change their behavior unless it negatively impacts their bottom line so the best you can do is be conscious of your behavior as a consumer.

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, FlatTooth said:

I’ll get it eventually but I wish I knew what about it makes it pricier than malign sorcery. 

Malign Sorcery is set up as a core product and probably is meant to have smaller individual profit margins that they will make up in sales volume since it is a product they expect the vast majority of the player-base to pick up - just like the core rulebook.  I am willing to bet that they don't expect as much of the player-base to purchase Forbidden Power and so it is priced to have larger margins per unit sold, a shorter shelf life, and a smaller manufacturing run.

It is most likely as simple as that.

[FlatTooth]

1 hour ago, JPjr said:

Is it even that expensive?! I mean sure, objectively speaking from the point of view of someone outside the game looking in, then yeah maybe.

But from the inside? €70 for a book, a pretty chunky and intricate piece of terrain and 4 endless spells, 2 of which are pretty massive isn't too bad when for the exact same price I'd get just Skraggrot, a Loonboss on foot and the Fungoid Cave Shaman for my Gloomspite army. 3 models that I guess if you're looking for silver lining at least aren't contributing that much to the disgusting amount of unnecessary plastic that we're destroying this planet with.

I'm not saying it's a MUST BUY, absolutely far from it, let's face it nothing here really is, and personally I think they should have included something like one of the sprues from the Timeworn Ruins set, a bit more terrain/scenery in there would have made it look and feel very different.

But if you're into the narrative side of the game or just like collecting and painting chunky models then it's a fun addition and keeps the story moving.

Yes. $90 is a lot of money considering how many maybes are in this thread. I’m not grading on a curve, here. $90 is $90. 

 

Also I’m much more into the narrative side of the gaming. Just wrote and ran a campaign for my group. Made booklets and everything. That doesn’t mean I can just find $90 to throw at something that was poorly marketed. Hell, it’s out and I’m still only *pretty sure* I know what’s in the book haha. 

 

That being said said the price tag doesn’t make it a never for me. It just means I’ll have to find a place to slot it in rather than pick it up whenever I want. 

[Landohammer]

Hard pass on Forbidden Power.

The models are great. The fluff looks fun. The rules are creative.  But the points cost are simply too high.

Endless spells can be dispelled and used against you. And they are used competitively to help burn off leftover points in lists. When they are climbing to 80+pts then they no longer fulfill their purpose. 

I'd rather just have another unit.

Price is mostly irrelevant. People buy $60 Witch Aelves by the truck loads.

 

 

[Dead Scribe]

Price is mostly irrelevant. People buy $60 Witch Aelves by the truck loads. 

Yep.  Because they are highly competitive and will help you win events.  If forbidden power had things in it like that, it would sell a lot better.

Hopefully GW takes note of that in their next expansion.

[Skabnoze]

6 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Yep.  Because they are highly competitive and will help you win events.  If forbidden power had things in it like that, it would sell a lot better.

Hopefully GW takes note of that in their next expansion.

Meh.  Not every product has to mainly cater to a specific portion of the player-base.  There is room for product that cater to narrative players, ones for competitive players, and products in between.  And nobody really knows how well this sold outside of GW themselves.  All of our various insights are purely anecdotal.

[Dead Scribe]

Sure they are anecdotal, but to date none of the campaign material has sold well pretty much across everyone who responds to the question in their area.  

Conversely if you ask how the flesh eater courts are selling, you'll get a pretty solid majority saying that those boxes move. 

Enough to draw a pretty accurate opinion.

[svnvaldez]

I consider myself a matched play player and bought this.

My 2cents is it’s fine... this is much better than firestorm imo that I literally have no use for outside the few pages on cities.

This box at least has some army rules, mercenaries, terrain, and endless spells that can add to my games.

Big bonus for me is that I can set up the endless spells (and I put in purple sun and shackles) + terrain and use them as scenery at home.

I get the price argument and it might not be worth the money for everyone. 

[Skabnoze]

2 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Sure they are anecdotal, but to date none of the campaign material has sold well pretty much across everyone who responds to the question in their area.  

Conversely if you ask how the flesh eater courts are selling, you'll get a pretty solid majority saying that those boxes move. 

Enough to draw a pretty accurate opinion.

It is the same phenomenon that has existed for over a decade with campaign supplements and yet GW still makes them.  That is my point.  If GW was not making an effective enough profit on these products at this point I expect they would have simply stopped trying.  The fact that they regularly churn these out for both 40k and AoS indicates that they feel it is worthwhile to do so.

[Dead Scribe]

True, but then they also do things like scrap a game in the middle of the night with no notice and squat factions allegedly due to poor sales.  So thats something that needs considered.

[the_master288]

19 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

 

 

Yep.  Because they are highly competitive and will help you win events.  If forbidden power had things in it like that, it would sell a lot better.

Hopefully GW takes note of that in their next expansion.

Please no.  We really don't need GW to do anymore power creep..........

[Kramer]

17 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Sure they are anecdotal, but to date none of the campaign material has sold well pretty much across everyone who responds to the question in their area.  

Conversely if you ask how the flesh eater courts are selling, you'll get a pretty solid majority saying that those boxes move. 

Enough to draw a pretty accurate opinion.

Other side of that same coin is that GW also invested less into this expansion so the profit margins would be higher. Maybe enough to compensate the lower sales.

Not saying this is a fact, hell I don't think it sold nearly enough for that, but we don't know the actual sales or break even point. So even though people's conclusions might be right we don't have the necessary data to present it as fact. Which you didn't do by the way, so no judgement here. 
But I do agree GW should take note of the sales like you said, but I also think that the bigger sales also correlate with the bigger investments on their part. So it would be interesting to see if they would make more money with a more narrative box with a smaller investment (but marketed properly) or if they can only hit the jackpot if it's a power gaming necessity. Here;s hoping they do both  

[JPjr]

Looks like Fyreslayers are getting a little bonus in the next issue of WD with rules for a new lodge and named Auric Runefather (though it's not a new model before anyone gets excited).

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/07/white-dwarf-preview-junegw-homepage-post-2/

Most exciting, for me, though is seeing them combine Kill Team and Blackstone Fortress, I've already been messing around using the BSF tiles for building tunnels and extra areas for KT, so can't wait to see how they've implemented it.

 

EDIT! Whoops... this was meant to be in the Rumour Thread even though it's not a rumour but hey ho, let's go.

Edited June 7, 2019 by JPjr

[Skabnoze]

5 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

True, but then they also do things like scrap a game in the middle of the night with no notice and squat factions allegedly due to poor sales.  So thats something that needs considered.

This is true, but it is also exceedingly rare.  The vast majority of the games that they have pulled the plug on over the years are the small side games and they have killed the majority of them.  Discussing their core games is a different matter.  The most drastic changes they have ever made to their games that I can remember in the course of my playing (late 80s) was the shift from 2nd to 3rd ed 40k - which invalidated massive swathes of player collections across most armies and the swap from Warhammer Fantasy to Age of Sigmar - which heavily shook up the game and split factions apart but it had less turmoil in regards to making existing collections unplayable.  The number of factions in core games that have been completely stripped from the game is pretty small.  Age of Sigmar has pruned the most factions from the game - but they provided free rule sets for those armies in the form of the Legends compendiums so they are not 100% useless.  For the most part the writing is on the wall for many of those forces.  In regards to armies that have no equivalent way to play the only one I can think of are Squats. 

But I would also say that your point also lends even more weight to the concept that these campaign books must be generating enough of an expected return for GW to find them worthwhile to pursue.  They have been doing these sorts of things as full products for well over 10 years and they have not stopped making them.  That may change in the future, but Forbidden Power shows they are still making them so at least in the world we live in today GW finds these products to be a worthwhile product development.

[Landohammer]

22 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

 

 

Yep.  Because they are highly competitive and will help you win events.  If forbidden power had things in it like that, it would sell a lot better.

Hopefully GW takes note of that in their next expansion.

So to be clear, I'm totally ok with GW making medium-power level models. I actually really like several of the rules on FP models. They have a cool theme and fun rules. My reason for not buying the kit is the lack of proper points costing for those models.

Lets consider, Quicksilver Swords and Soulsnare Shackles are pretty tame when compared to Cogs, Pendulum or Geminids. But the fact that they are only 20pts actually makes them pretty useful

Knock a few points off the FP spells (and cut the terrain points cost by 60%) and I would totally buy this kit! 

[Dead Scribe]

That may change in the future, but Forbidden Power shows they are still making them so at least in the world we live in today GW finds these products to be a worthwhile product development.

It is true that they keep on producing them, and thats fascinating to me because they are also the only things that I consistently see rarely get sold.  But I guess I'm glad they are keeping on keeping on.

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, xking said:

Whats up with  Ghal Maraz absorbing soul now? 

Sigmar finally got around to reading the owner’s manual now that he has some free time to sit around in his capital.

[Carnelian]

Good news! 

I played a game last night using a pitched battle scenario from Forbidden Power (the one where whoever goes second in the battle round takes away an objective) and it was great fun! 

[El Syf]

Yep played two games the other day, guardian spirits and unlock the vault. Have to say unlock the vault is a pretty fun scenario and the awakened artefacts/stormvault sacristies all make for a nice campaign.