A discussion on Forbidden Power

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

If you pick up this box purely for the matched play elements, you're going to be disappointed as you're limiting yourself

Kinda describes AoS in general, if you ask me.

The game is more, so much more, than matched play.

[Dead Scribe]

Take away the matched play element though and you don't have very much interest from most of the community.  Same was true with the firestorm campaign thing, the maligned portents book, and the original hardback campaign books.  They just didn't really seem to move.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Dead Scribe

[azdimy]

I have decided to skip this one. I think the promotion of it has been poor and so am I because of all the AOS releases that have come out this year

[Sleboda]

7 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Take away the matched play element though and you don't have very much interest from most of the community.  Same was true with the firestorm campaign thing, the maligned portents book, and the original hardback campaign books.  They just didn't really seem to move.

Maybe.

In my group the addition of matched play brought in exactly one player. Everyone else was fully on board before that.

[JackStreicher]

I am currently only skipping this one (for now) since I cannot afford it ^^

[Skabnoze]

8 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Take away the matched play element though and you don't have very much interest from most of the community.  Same was true with the firestorm campaign thing, the maligned portents book, and the original hardback campaign books.  They just didn't really seem to move.

To be fair, campaign supplements for GW games that are not designed primarily around a campaign (Necromunda, Mordheim, etc) have always been niche products.  This is not new for AoS and the same dynamic existed in Warhammer Fantasy and still does exist in 40k.

I generally like that GW remains willing to put out campaign supplements for their games.  Campaigns & other forms of structured long-term play can be a whole lot of fun.  The downside is that they require someone to put some effort into setting them up, organizing, and continually running the campaign.  When done right I think they are some of the most fun ways to play tabletop games.  However, they will always be somewhat niche because they require extra work and organization from a group of players.  It can be hard enough in our hobby for people to regularly manage to play standard games and so it gets even tougher to get organized long-term groups going.  But products like these can help lift some of the burden of designing the campaign and let people just focus on organizing.  It is similar to playing a RPG module rather than creating one from scratch - some of the work has already been done for you.

[Travis Baumann]

I really enjoyed the lore and the entire first section of the book but was very let down that there was no reveal.   There should have been a bigger culmination in that entity and what it really was but still liked it.    Putting the below in spoiler tag just not to ruin some bits for people still getting it...

Spoiler

I always thought of Fyreslayers as "good" guys but nope!   Those backstabbers really caused a LOT of Stormcast reforging and allied death.  So much so that when the Celestant Prime showed up, he went and dealt with them first before engaging the Mortarch or her betrothed.  Also loved the FEC coming in to aid the defenders, really cool touch.  Shows where their delusions overpower their anticipated alignments and I liked how they had to be "wrangled" at points to keep them on mission and not just eating all the defenders too.  

My favorite part in terms of beats in the story (but not in detailed description) was Lady Olynder destroying the Celestant Prime.  I wish that was a chapter in and of itself.  I can just imagine her lifting her veil and even the First Forged succumbing to her powers of grief and then she uses the hourglass....

I think the boatman and the bridge are really cool but the pyramids thing and the horrorghast are not to my liking.  I like their concept, just not their miniature.

The Penumbral Engine looks really cool as a steampunk magicky thing and will probably end up on the table somewhere just for visual/obstacle bits.  I think they should not be "owned" but an objective to be fought over when used rules-wise but we will see how it plays out.

I paid around $85 US for it which seems pretty steep in retrospect... not sure I enjoyed the read THAT much but looking forward to painting the Charon dude and the bridge at least.

This is definitely for people interested in the campaign and story.  This is in no way comparable to Malign Sorcery which was a game-wide extension of magic and artifacts, nor is it like the Portents lead up to the Necroquake which was also all-alliance encompassing and built up for what seemed like nearly a year prior.

I love the concept of Stormvaults hidden throughout the realms with either artifacts or entities within.  I really liked the short story in WD of the Kharandon finding the one protected by the White Flower Prince or whatever he is called.  At the time they did not name him which they do in the FP book.  I wish there would have been more of a bestiary/vault guide for all different potential encounters with the artifacts and entities throughout the Realms, detailed and various maps of the vaults, maybe even an artifact generator for undocumented vaults....

That could have been a game-wide expansion ala Malign Sorcery and kind of what I hoped/thought this to be but they did not go that route so a bit disappointing I guess.

[Grimrock]

I'm actually really happy that this release isn't on the level of malign sorceries. New players don't need yet another thing they have to buy to be able to put together a viable competitive army and I know I didn't want to feel handicapped just because I didn't want to spend over $100 on a couple spells. I think a release primarily focused on narrative play is great, even if it means that I don't have much incentive to pick it up. Good call on GW's part imho.

[Dead Scribe]

But you have to wonder, if its not selling much, is GW incentivized to continue to release narrative expansions?  Much like how good balance benefits both narrative and competitive players alike, it is a bit disappointing to have this release have practically nothing in terms of competitive play.  I would think a combo of both narrative rules and matched play items would have been in their best interest.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Dead Scribe

[Kramer]

25 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

But you have to wonder, if its not selling much, is GW incentivized to continue to release narrative expansions?  Much like how good balance benefits both narrative and competitive players alike, it is a bit disappointing to have this release have practically nothing in terms of competitive play.  I would think a combo of both narrative rules and matched play items would have been in their best interest.

It’s good question. Personally I think it’s not the contents but the marketing. If you look at the malign portents expansion it introduced something completely new, this build on that. 

We’ll see but I hope the do. And fully agree that the combo would be the best sell. 

[Skabnoze]

16 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

But you have to wonder, if its not selling much, is GW incentivized to continue to release narrative expansions?  Much like how good balance benefits both narrative and competitive players alike, it is a bit disappointing to have this release have practically nothing in terms of competitive play.  I would think a combo of both narrative rules and matched play items would have been in their best interest.

I am pretty sure that GW has different sales expectations for different types of products.  And most likely they are also purposefully testing the waters in regards to making various products appeal more to the broader audience and watching the purchase patterns. Campaign products are not a new thing for GW.  They have made them for the last few editions of Warhammer Fantasy and also 40k.

Those have always been products that are not usually brought by the wider playerbase but they obviously have a decent enough sales rate or GW would have stopped making them a while ago.  The main difference that I can see with Forbidden Power is that it contains a piece of terrain and some endless spells.  I would not be overly surprised if at some point in the future GW repackaged those into individual sets if the full Forbidden Power box set sales heavily slow down.

GW books seem to have high profit margins because they have drastically ramped up their book production over the last few years.  Businesses don’t make shifts like that unless there is money to be made.

I don’t think we will see GW stop making campaign style supplements anytime soon.  They will keep dropping one every so often.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Skabnoze

[PlasticCraic]

6 hours ago, Kramer said:

And fully agree that the combo would be the best sell. 

I almost feel like that's what they were going for?  In the sense that the Endless Spells are useful in Matched Play and can be used by anyone, strategically that looks like it was the hook for competitive players who might otherwise pass.

If they want to have all the tools available to them, including significant Hero Phase moves, they are compelled to buy in, even if they're not particularly interested in the campaign or scenery.

If they haven't done so in significant numbers, I almost think that's because it was a combo product: if you're only interested in the Matched Play side, rightly or wrongly, the Narrative content can come across as a tax.

[Kramer]

20 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

I almost feel like that's what they were going for?  In the sense that the Endless Spells are useful in Matched Play and can be used by anyone, strategically that looks like it was the hook for competitive players who might otherwise pass.

If they want to have all the tools available to them, including significant Hero Phase moves, they are compelled to buy in, even if they're not particularly interested in the campaign or scenery.

If they haven't done so in significant numbers, I almost think that's because it was a combo product: if you're only interested in the Matched Play side, rightly or wrongly, the Narrative content can come across as a tax.

We will never know of course but From my point of view they just messed up the marketing. They could have sold so much more if they did the massive story drops surrounding it, made it a world wide campaign and/or made it less similar to the malign portents box. It was a very soft sell and maybe it’s the result from the crazy release schedule. 

[Dead Scribe]

6 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

I almost feel like that's what they were going for?  In the sense that the Endless Spells are useful in Matched Play and can be used by anyone, strategically that looks like it was the hook for competitive players who might otherwise pass.

If they want to have all the tools available to them, including significant Hero Phase moves, they are compelled to buy in, even if they're not particularly interested in the campaign or scenery.

If they haven't done so in significant numbers, I almost think that's because it was a combo product: if you're only interested in the Matched Play side, rightly or wrongly, the Narrative content can come across as a tax.

In regards to the forbidden power release, if their intention was to market it to both tournament players and narrative casuals, they did a poor job because there is only one item in the entire box worth having for tournament play (the boat) and very few players are going to pony up the cash for the entire box to get a card and a model.  They will wait for the ebay people to split it out, as has been the case in my neck of the woods.

[Zanzou]

I don't think this is anything wrong with marketing or the boxed set.  I think the reason people don't want it is very simple.  1) The pricing is off, 2) Overload of generic (universal) endless spells

Malign Sorcery was 13 spells already (some big ones) for less than the cost of these 4 endless spells plus 1 endless-spell-like "terrain" in forbidden power.   It doesn't take a mathmetician to feel like sticking with the 13 endless spells at a bargain price is way more "worth" it. Even a faction like Gloomspite Gitz is sold 4 endless spells (albeit smaller in size) for significantly less than half the price (sure, there's no book- but malign sorcery had a book).

Edited June 6, 2019 by Zanzou

[Overread]

Lets not forget Malign Sorcery was the first of its kind right when AoS was having a massive boost in marketing; it was sold and marketed at a fever pitch and it was presenting a totally new form of gameplay for fantasy and everyone could use it!

Forbidden Powers is being launched into an atmosphere where each faction has or will have their own trio (or so) of endless spells. Most of which are pretty good to very good. So there's a little less pressure on generic spells. 

Furthermore all the spells in this set are "death" themed which is the first real themed bit of "realm" stuf that we've had. I feel that GW has possibly missed the mark a little in so much as this is the first real visual realm stuff we've had. If I were them I might have considered releasing two sets at the same time for two different realms. Something like that might well have made them feel more generic rather than "death focused" and reinforced the idea of realm themed landscapes. I think GW could have done well if the terrain feature was also death rather than stormcast themed too. 

 

 

Overall Forbidden powers just isn't as "new" its more of the same, which I think has slowed its sales a little. Also lets not forget its being released right up against the Generals Handbook, Contrast paint and Warcry - all important game changing things. The GHB is a big balance changer, whilst Contrast paint is a serious marketing push by GW; furthermore Warcry is a new game/feature/approach and the big thing for summer so might have many saving their Forbidden power money for Warcry. Esp if it comes with lots of terrain (like Killteam) and thus has people eager to buy multiple kits before it all vanishes (we know Fobidden Power is likely to last long term and even if the book goes out of date the models and spells will likely remain long term; Warcry we are stil unsure of).

[the_master288]

5 minutes ago, Overread said:

Overall Forbidden powers just isn't as "new" its more of the same, which I think has slowed its sales a little.

Price is a big factor here.  Why do we have to pay more for less?

[Overread]

On 6/4/2019 at 1:40 PM, azdimy said:

I have decided to skip this one. I think the promotion of it has been poor and so am I because of all the AOS releases that have come out this year

This is another aspect, AoS has been having a really strong period since this time last year. Even if your army hasn't had a revamp chances are most are back to buying models and addons and might even be eyeing up contrast paints and the like. Basically GW has been firing out powerful releases so fast that some wallets are getting taxed out. 

GW, of course, knows this, but they also know that its better to keep goin at this rate (for now) to get the whole game "up to date" and then they can ease back a little. Plus they are still selling out of their duel kits; still selling new lines strongly etc.. So even if some are burned out there's still ample market to tap into. 

[Overread]

1 minute ago, the_master288 said:

Price is a big factor here.  Why do we have to pay more for less?

Probably because MS was underpriced compared to what you got in the set. GW wanted to push endless spells hard - back then we were all surprised at the cost. Plus don't forget a few months ago the getting started sets went up a little (some did) in price. So FP is probably priced where it should be rather than where we'd like it to be.

 

Also don't forget the number of sprues isn't actually much different, its just that instead of three or four spells on a single sprue you get one big half of a huge bone walkway. So there's "less" in terms of numbers but not so much when you look at sprue count and size of the features. 

[the_master288]

Just now, Overread said:

Probably because MS was underpriced compared to what you got in the set.

GW set a precedent though with the MS release, the expectation that you will get a more full fledged release, instead of just a few spells and a terrain piece for more than the MS release price.

2 minutes ago, Overread said:

Also don't forget the number of sprues isn't actually much different, its just that instead of three or four spells on a single sprue you get one big half of a huge bone walkway. So there's "less" in terms of numbers but not so much when you look at sprue count and size of the features. 

I see what you mean, however, as a player/consumer, most people won't even care about the sprue count.  They'll only care about how many models are in the box.

[Overread]

Just now, the_master288 said:

I see what you mean, however, as a player/consumer, most people won't even care about the sprue count.  They'll only care about how many models are in the box.

Yes and no - its a bit like comparing Morathi to two boxes of Witch Aelves. The two boxes of Aelves gives you way more models - 20 - whilst Morathi just gives you 2. However one is a massive freaking huge snake; whilst the witches are all troop sized. 

FP is the same and I'd wager actaully seeing the models included would make more people purchase. Online and in product photos they look the same because photos tell lies like that; but in reality I'm sure the far bigger size would carry across well. 

[the_master288]

1 minute ago, Overread said:

Yes and no - its a bit like comparing Morathi to two boxes of Witch Aelves. The two boxes of Aelves gives you way more models - 20 - whilst Morathi just gives you 2. However one is a massive freaking huge snake; whilst the witches are all troop sized. 

FP is the same and I'd wager actaully seeing the models included would make more people purchase. Online and in product photos they look the same because photos tell lies like that; but in reality I'm sure the far bigger size would carry across well. 

This is tricky as on one hand, I totally agree with you.  On the other, we have to remember that the example you gave was from army specific models, where as these are generic models to be used with any army.  People may have a different perception between the two.

[Overread]

Honestly I think its just that FP isn't a game-changing release that MS was. And there's nothing bad in that, its just no longer a default auto-buy. Actually game wise that's a very good thing, the last thing we would want is for GW to make every "new" box of spells an auto-buy every single time. Gamers already complain that faction terrain is "auto buy" because its free to deploy (thus you'd always want it even if you had no specific tactic to use it in a particular game). Plus with generic spells there's the risk that if each one were better than the rest the power curve woudl be going up all the time.

FP also gave a twist in that most of the spells are positional and disruptive based rather than damage based, so that might have turned away some who only play for the damage potential. 

[JPjr]

GW really need to get a grip on the leaks in their accountancy dept, that everyone on here can speak so authoritatively about the sales figures for a set that came out just 1 and a half weeks ago should be a serious cause for concern for the company.

[Overread]

5 minutes ago, JPjr said:

GW really need to get a grip on the leaks in their accountancy dept, that everyone on here can speak so authoritatively about the sales figures for a set that came out just 1 and a half weeks ago should be a serious cause for concern for the company.

Naw its more the chatter about it isn't as on fire as it was for MS - also people might just be seeing more stock on shelves or less people openly going nuts about it.