Attack 2x command abilities

[Grailstorm]

I can’t escape the thought that the introduction and prevalence of “pile in and attack 2x” command abilities are ruining the game.

The fact that they are not open to everyone means that if you’re a combat army that doesn’t have it, you’re effectively screwed.

The ability to choose a unit (multiple times with multiple command points) to attack twice is far and away better than any other combat focused command ability I can think of.

It’s especially noticeable when I play my Ironjawz. I love my command ability. It’s great. Getting +1 or +2 attacks is tremendous fun. It feels great when you pull it off well, because it requires strategy and positioning.

However, picture this.

A Bloodthirster attacking 2x is like a Megaboss using 6 command points. 

A Keeper attacking 2x is liike a Megaboss using 6 command points.

A Terrorgheist attacking 2x is like a Megaboss using 6 command points.

You get the picture.

Even picking a solid unit to attack 2x can only be matched by 3-4 command points from Ironjawz. Wrathmongers, Reapers, Bestigors, Minotaurs, whatever it may be... to match that with Brutes, I would need 3-4 command points. And that’s before you get to the requirements of having 4-6 units around you.

Giving FEC such easy access to it was one thing. Giving each new army that comes out makes it ubiquitous. And if you rely on combat and don’t have it, you don’t really stand a chance.

When Ironjawz get updated, they no doubt will have some form of “attack 2x” thing as well – because GW have now made a game where combat armies need to have it, or you are at a disadvantage.

What do you think?

[Lucio]

Agree, it's a multiplier when it really should be a linear boost.

For example, pile in and make a single attack with a weapon would work far better for game balance.

Vs the Ironjawz +1 attack, you've got flexibility of all the attacks at once vs attack later but with the move

[PJetski]

"Fight twice" abilities are really powerful. Not only are they a crazy force multiplier but they usually also let you do it immediately and break the combat order, and they usually allow you to pile in again which is an incredibly powerful positioning tool.

The melee combat arms race is in full swing - the losers are any army that can't fight first and/or fight twice, but the winner will be the armies that avoid combat altogether (ie: shooting armies).

That said, I don't think it is a good idea to compare anything released after 2018 to a book released before the first GHB. Ironjawz are in a really sorry state right now. Like the Fyreslayers, their rules were written in a totally different paradigm and they don't hold up to modern standards. When IJ get a new book I expect a huge amount of rule changes, like making Gore Gruntas actually do some meaningful damage and some kunnin combat tricks.

[whispersofblood]

4 hours ago, Grailstorm said:

I can’t escape the thought that the introduction and prevalence of “pile in and attack 2x” command abilities are ruining the game.

The fact that they are not open to everyone means that if you’re a combat army that doesn’t have it, you’re effectively screwed.

The ability to choose a unit (multiple times with multiple command points) to attack twice is far and away better than any other combat focused command ability I can think of.

It’s especially noticeable when I play my Ironjawz. I love my command ability. It’s great. Getting +1 or +2 attacks is tremendous fun. It feels great when you pull it off well, because it requires strategy and positioning.

However, picture this.

A Bloodthirster attacking 2x is like a Megaboss using 6 command points. 

A Keeper attacking 2x is liike a Megaboss using 6 command points.

A Terrorgheist attacking 2x is like a Megaboss using 6 command points.

You get the picture.

Even picking a solid unit to attack 2x can only be matched by 3-4 command points from Ironjawz. Wrathmongers, Reapers, Bestigors, Minotaurs, whatever it may be... to match that with Brutes, I would need 3-4 command points. And that’s before you get to the requirements of having 4-6 units around you.

Giving FEC such easy access to it was one thing. Giving each new army that comes out makes it ubiquitous. And if you rely on combat and don’t have it, you don’t really stand a chance.

When Ironjawz get updated, they no doubt will have some form of “attack 2x” thing as well – because GW have now made a game where combat armies need to have it, or you are at a disadvantage.

What do you think?

Small niggle KoS isn't "fight twice", it allows a hedonite unit to be activated for a second time, in normal sequence. There are some situation where having straight up more damage is better, and times where activating twice is better. 

[Charleston]

I agree with the statement and would also add the omnipresence of "fights first" Abilities as another big issue.

GW gives us with the new tomes a bit too much goodstuff^tm which really causes a ton of issues. The game feels a bit overloaded with effects and it feels like those also never have any drawbacks. Also players who go with the fluff and not the crunch or just play older armies have a pretty frustrating time now. Also this pretty much narrows the listbuilding possibilities.

There is a lot of design ideas behind the game I really do not understand...

[Dead Scribe]

I think this is working as designed to get you to buy a newer army.

[ageofpaddsmar]

3 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Small niggle KoS isn't "fight twice", it allows a hedonite unit to be activated for a second time, in normal sequence. There are some situation where having straight up more damage is better, and times where activating twice is better. 

But the KoS makes you fight at the end of the combat phase on a 2+. So most of the time gets to fight twice before being hit back

[Zanzou]

Other than the basics like arcane bolt, mystic shield, inspiring presence, etc, giving the same of ANY powerful tool to every arm kills the game one piece at a time, in my opinion.  It's unfortunately not just limited to attacking twice since 2.0.

We can only hope they'll walk back some of these changes, however I think they are much more likely to just continue buffing each faction.

[Graftonianman]

Bring some chaff to eat up the first pile in.

I used to think the undead resurrection of a dead 40 skeletons was broken until I learned how to deal with it. 

It’s a new trick; its awe will fade as players learn how to face it. 

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

7 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Small niggle KoS isn't "fight twice", it allows a hedonite unit to be activated for a second time, in normal sequence. There are some situation where having straight up more damage is better, and times where activating twice is better. 

To be honest, if you paired it with locus it is pretty much a doble activation in a lot of scenarios.

[Grailstorm]

3 hours ago, Graftonianman said:

Bring some chaff to eat up the first pile in.

I used to think the undead resurrection of a dead 40 skeletons was broken until I learned how to deal with it. 

It’s a new trick; its awe will fade as players learn how to face it. 

That’s not the issue. Whether you deal with it or not, it’s just flat out better than every other possible combat command ability. 

So as soon as it’s introduced, it’s a big deal. Now that it’s on three armies, it’s a huge deal.

As soon as anything with attack 2x gets into combat, you are dealing with the combat power of two units for the price of one. There is no such thing as just dealing with that if you are a combat army that doesn’t also have that same functionality.

[Sleboda]

6 hours ago, Grailstorm said:

 

Edit: double post

Edited May 28, 2019 by Sleboda

[The_Yellow_Sign]

Yeah I hate all this double pile-in and always strikes first/last ****** in the newer books. It just makes the combat phase boring and one-sided. It means that games are won or lost in the list-building phase, since you absolutely have to have a reliable counter to this stuff in your list. Beasts of Chaos list with no Tzaangor Shaman and Wildfire Taurus facing Gristlegore? Sorry, you automatically lose because nothing can withstand even one pile-in from the Gristlegore General.

[Dead Scribe]

 It means that games are won or lost in the list-building phase

I think thats a desired feature over an unintentional bug.

[azdimy]

Strangely enough (or not) , the forgeworld keeper of secret lost the ability to pile in and attack twice with its new warscroll

[Acid_Nine]

Honestly I think piling in and activating twice is fine, as long as there is a gap in time for you to take a swing at the opponent. Something like a skeleton horde getting to attack twice can be devastating, but there is a chance to cut some down before they swing again usually.

double tapping twice in a row just feels really dirty.

[SleeperAgent]

I remember when Nighthaunt came out. Boy do I love my spooky bois. And I remember the days when people called for Wave of Terror nerfs....

I would gladly give up Wave of Terror for any other armies attack twice ability. Because at this point, I literally only use command points to re-roll charges in the hopes that I get a Wave of Terror.

Edited May 28, 2019 by SleeperAgent

[Sleboda]

10 hours ago, Grailstorm said:

soon as anything with attack 2x gets into combat, you are dealing with the combat power of two units for the price of one

I suppose, then, that it's good there are point values for things in Matched Play. It's almost like the designers had some sort of tool available to them to create balance and factor in the abilities in the book at the time of writing.

That aside, I'm starting to think that they wrote Blades of Khorne assuming you would get extra fights. Without that ability, the book is pretty non-competitive.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Sleboda

[whispersofblood]

8 hours ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

To be honest, if you paired it with locus it is pretty much a doble activation in a lot of scenarios.

But it is still not technically that. the KoS can only locus one unit, within 6" at the end of the charge phase. 

There is massive difference in the realm of player interaction within the mechanics of the combination Locus of Diversion, Excess of Violence, and say Feast Day.

Like all new interactions it requires players actively come to grips with the mechanics of it, the players who aren't able to do so were very likely already struggling with the game anyway.

[Kasper]

You are assuming all combat armies have equal stats/abilities and aren't semi balanced around the fact that an army got niches and CAN fight twice. I'm not saying Slaanesh or FEC are 100% balanced, and I can certainly understand the frustration of fighting them, only to see your heroes/units wiped off the table before you got a chance to play with your toys, despite doing a charge. My point is that you can't just take 2 heroes from each and compare them like that.

Also you are comparing Ironjawz to new battletomes. It is absolutely no secret that the new battletomes are miles ahead of the older tomes or even an army that doesn't have a tome, so your experience will obviously be way different/worse. Armies with tomes in AoSv2 are VERY strong, so new tomes kind of have to give the army a certain oompf which Slaanesh certainly lacked previously.

Is it fun to play vs Focus of Diversion? I can see the frustration, but I think it is better than "I attack first" because there is zero counter to that, where as you can bring multiple units into combat to negate the Focus of Diversion, so there is at least more room for interaction.

[Kasper]

11 hours ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

To be honest, if you paired it with locus it is pretty much a doble activation in a lot of scenarios.

If you are talking 1 unit vs 1 unit combat, sure. But if you have multiple units in combat with a KoS, it is much different.

[peasant]

I foresee a lot of games ending in The 2nd turn and fun denied from players.

When game designers develop rules they can have something in mind: sell an army or make The game experience more enjoyable for both players.

In spite of The last battletomes no doubt is The first

[Eevika]

32 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Armies with tomes in AoSv2 are VERY strong, so new tomes kind of have to give the army a certain oompf

Too bad Gitz didnt get any of that oompf😭

[Dead Scribe]

A lot of the AOS2 books are not that strong.  Its not just Gitz that didn't get the oompf.  Granted they are still more powerful than factions with no book or factions with only the older book.  

[whispersofblood]

56 minutes ago, Eevika said:

Too bad Gitz didnt get any of that oompf😭

Gitz are very strong, but much like SCE they have a lot of stuff that isn't really applicable at the top of match play. Playing a faction in matched play, and playing a faction competitively are not the same thing, people do a huge disservice to books by inferring they are.