Re-roll hit rolls = re-roll *failed* hit rolls?

[Slaves]

Some units has abilities that say they can re-roll hit rolls, for example the skull reapers - "You can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by this unit if the target unit has 5 or more models."

We understood that to mean we can re-roll failed hit rolls, as re-rolling all of the hit rolls in the hope of getting a better overall result doesn't seem that great.

But I've noticed a lot of units seem to specifically state failed hit rolls, for example Chaos Warshrine - "You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for the unit. If you picked a Mortal Khorne unit, you can instead re-roll all failed hit rolls. "

So does that mean if it doesn't say "failed" you have to re-roll all of them (if you choose), or does both wording mean the same?

[Tropical Ghost General]

To give as simple an example as possible  of 'reroll hits' vs 'reroll failed hits'

For this example your unit hits normally on a 4+ and have 12 attacks. From this you roll two 1s, two 2s, two 3s, two 4s, two 5s and two 6s (perfectly average roll 😂). And in this example unmodified 6s give you an extra mortal wound on top of regular damage.

So 'reroll failed hits' first:

Now without any modifiers involved, you will reroll the 1s, 2s, and 3s in order to score those hit rolls.

But with say a -2 to hit modifier, you now need 6s to hit, so while the 4s and 5s would normally hit, they are classed as successful hits and not 'failed hits', because modifiers are applied after the roll, so they can't be rerolled, only the 1s, 2s and 3s, just as before. Only difference is the addition of 'lost' dice (4s & 5s) that were classed as successful hits, aren't successful after the negative modifier has been applied.

So 'reroll hits' next:

Now without any modifiers involved, you will need reroll the 1s, 2s, and 3s in order to score those hit rolls. But you can also choose to reroll the other 10 dice that weren't 6s, in order to fish for some more mortal wounds, even though the 4s and 5s were already successful. It's a gamble and sometimes worth trying.

And with the same -2 to hit modifier, you now need 6s to hit, so while the 4s and 5s would normally hit, they are still classed as successful hits and not 'failed hits', because modifiers are applied after the roll, but the difference is now they can be rerolled, whereas they couldn't before, so any dice that weren't a 6 can be picked up and rolled again. In this situation there are no 'lost' dice being created from the negative modifiers that get applied.

Now although the wording is subtle, it's so much stronger to have the 'reroll hits' compared to the 'reroll failed hits'. I initially thought that GW were updating the terms to simplify and streamline the gaming process (as figuring out the 'reroll failed hits' can be a pain in the bum sometimes and slows down combat a fair bit), but there are still a few units and abilities from some of the newer books that have the 'reroll failed hits', which is a shame in my opinion, as making it a game wide change by removing the 'failed hits' would be good for the health of the game, as certain armies (such as ghosts) all have the older version of the reroll ability, so get crippled by armies that can give out the negative modifiers, which on the other end of the spectrum isn't something that a lot of the newer armies suffer from. So it's a big and unnecessary handicap to put on some factions and units compared to others, but 🤷‍♀️ that's GW rules writing for you.

 

[AndyPa]

On 5/25/2019 at 3:31 PM, Slaves said:

Some units has abilities that say they can re-roll hit rolls, for example the skull reapers - "You can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by this unit if the target unit has 5 or more models."

We understood that to mean we can re-roll failed hit rolls, as re-rolling all of the hit rolls in the hope of getting a better overall result doesn't seem that great.

But I've noticed a lot of units seem to specifically state failed hit rolls, for example Chaos Warshrine - "You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for the unit. If you picked a Mortal Khorne unit, you can instead re-roll all failed hit rolls. "

So does that mean if it doesn't say "failed" you have to re-roll all of them (if you choose), or does both wording mean the same?

No.

Basicaly you roll each attack seperatly:

ATTACKS
CHARACTERISTIC
The maximum number of attacks
that can be made by a weapon is
equal to its Attacks characteristic.
Make the attacks one at a time,
unless you are using the rules for
Multiple Attacks.

MULTIPLE ATTACKS
In order to resolve several attacks
at once, all of the attacks must be
made by models from the same unit,
with the same type of weapon, and
against the same target unit. If this
is the case, make all of the hit rolls at
the same time, then all of the wound
rolls, and finally all of the save rolls.

Doing them the same time does not mean that it is only 1 roll. You choose for each of your attacks (Attack Characteristic) seperatly.
Rerolling "failed" hitrolls follows the same rules.

Keep in mind, that you can only reroll unmodified rolls (before applying modifieres like rend etc.)

 

[AverageBoss]

Remember that rerolls happen before modifiers. So an ability that states "reroll failed hit rolls" will never take modifiers into account, it just cares about your base numbers. But with an ability that simply states "reroll hit rolls" you as the player can take modifiers into account, rerolling dice that will count as a miss after modifiers are applied.

Short answer, they are different.

[Ointagru]

32 minutes ago, Slaves said:

Some units has abilities that say they can re-roll hit rolls, for example the skull reapers - "You can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by this unit if the target unit has 5 or more models."

We understood that to mean we can re-roll failed hit rolls, as re-rolling all of the hit rolls in the hope of getting a better overall result doesn't seem that great.

But I've noticed a lot of units seem to specifically state failed hit rolls, for example Chaos Warshrine - "You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for the unit. If you picked a Mortal Khorne unit, you can instead re-roll all failed hit rolls. "

So does that mean if it doesn't say "failed" you have to re-roll all of them (if you choose), or does both wording mean the same?

There is a third possibility: it could mean that you can re-roll hit rolls, failed or not, of your choosing (in some cases you could try to re-roll a successful roll, for example when a higher result would inflict additional damage or a mortal wound).

[Slaves]

20 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Remember that rerolls happen before modifiers. So an ability that states "reroll failed hit rolls" will never take modifiers into account, it just cares about your base numbers. But with an ability that simply states "reroll hit rolls" you as the player can take modifiers into account, rerolling dice that will count as a miss after modifiers are applied.

Short answer, they are different.

ok, that's kind of subtle, but useful to know...

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

21 hours ago, Ointagru said:

There is a third possibility: it could mean that you can re-roll hit rolls, failed or not, of your choosing (in some cases you could try to re-roll a successful roll, for example when a higher result would inflict additional damage or a mortal wound).

That's one of the good parts about reroll all hits, so say if Spider Riders could get it then you'd be fishing for every 6 you can get as their normal attacks are weak. Also reroll failed hits appears to be an old style ruling, while new rules seem to always state flat rerolls.