Most Defensive armies?

[EchoHavoc]

Hey guys  and gals!

I've got a friend moving over from 40k. He wants to start two AoS armies.

One a fast, in your face, all out aggressive army. (thinking slaanesh, eels, DoK, FEC etc) This is mostly going to be his 'fun' army. 

The second army (this would be his main competitive, tournament army) a solid defensive line which is able to hold objectives. He still wants the army to have some fighting power but wants to make it hard to shift.

I have limited experience with these types of forces and was wondering if anyone could lend some knowledge. (Again this is mainly aimed at tournament play) Any ideas would be useful. 

Bit of context as well. I know through playing AoS for a while that this game lends itself to being offensive and pushing objectives. What my mate actually wants is a defensive core. With the ability to take and hold objectives without giving them up too easily. 

Thanks in advance 😊

Edited May 24, 2019 by EchoHavoc
Context

[Mortarch]

Fast - FEC - double dragon or Slaanesh.

Hold the line and also top tournament - Skaven.

 

The above all do well in Tournaments in the UK scene in the current meta. Cheapest to transition to is FEC, as its just Carrion Empire + Start Collectings. If he goes FEC and gets a hand on any carion empire boxes, will help (maybe) with skaven tide aswell. 

[peasant]

Slaanesh can be very defensive indeed!

[EchoHavoc]

2 minutes ago, Mortarch said:

Fast - FEC - double dragon or Slaanesh.

Hold the line and also top tournament - Skaven.

 

The above all do well in Tournaments in the UK scene in the current meta. Cheapest to transition to is FEC, as its just Carrion Empire + Start Collectings. If he goes FEC and gets a hand on any carion empire boxes, will help (maybe) with skaven tide aswell. 

OK so I have a skaven Army (with all the filth) I let him use them and he hated it. Didn't like the style or the infinite dice rolling (from monks). 

[EchoHavoc]

3 minutes ago, peasant said:

Slaanesh can be very defensive indeed!

I'll need to do more research here, as my club mate just runs them purely offensively. If they fill both roles maybe this would be a good army for him. 

[Barbossal]

Like many things Stormcast can also excel at being nearly impossible to knock off an objective. Baseline units are 4+ Save, 2 Wounds, often with battleshock resistance and shields giving rerolling saves of 1.

[XReN]

Fyreslayers for main, defensive army

Can't really name one particular option for offensive gameplay because all you mentioned are good

[StapMyVitals]

Freeguild/Free People have a lot of bonuses based on staying where they are, effects that trigger when they get charged, the numbers to take a mortal wound or two without crying, and several ways of mitigating battleshock. They're made as a defensive line. Even as a non-battletome army, they have representation in tournaments.

[EchoHavoc]

So both Stormcast and Fyreslayers were my top 2 choices. However, I have zero experience with either army so can't really offer advice. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by EchoHavoc

[EchoHavoc]

1 minute ago, StapMyVitals said:

Freeguild/Free People have a lot of bonuses based on staying where they are, effects that trigger when they get charged, the numbers to take a mortal wound or two without crying, and several ways of mitigating battleshock. They're made as a defensive line. Even as a non-battletome army, they have representation in tournaments.

Never even considered these guys. I'll get him to take a look. 

[peasant]

44 minutes ago, EchoHavoc said:

I'll need to do more research here, as my club mate just runs them purely offensively. If they fill both roles maybe this would be a good army for him. 

I mean if you invest in héroes you can summon a lot of models becoming unkillable. And what is The BEST defense? Hit first! With The locus you should make enemies hit last (so less enemies attacking)

 

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

Free Peoples hold the line like no one else; not because they're just tanky, but because they can thin your ranks before the combat phase even begins. Right now they are basically better Dispossessed due to access to cavalry and Collegiate Arcane. They are also 99% likely to get a battletome in the not too distant future.

If he's coming from 40k, I'd argue that Stormcast fit the bill better as they operate much like Space Marines. Free Peoples are more nuanced and difficult to play, but have distinct advantages; they aren't the equivalent to Imperial Guard though. They're my main army, and I find them very rewarding to play. However, large units of infantry are difficult to manage, so if he doesn't want to faff around moving dudes then Stormcast is probably the better pick, with access to greater flexibility; if you're in Free Peoples you're stuck there, but Stormcast can mix and match.

In my experience, Free Peoples can contend with most other armies and participate in all phases of the game (provided you have Collegiate Arcane). Now they might not be the strongest, but they definitely go down fighting to the last. They also often win the long game. They also have room to play aggressive, which nearly always catches my opponents off guard; they have cavalry for the enemy objectives, and suddenly breaking formation and charging a midfield unit can send opponents into disarray as they were expecting to come to you, so now their battleplan is triggered one or two turns early. With some good positioning you can even keep your ranged troops ready to overwatch with full bonuses. Greatswords are a good example of units that can suddenly break formation and rush an unsuspecting unit, because they can and will blend anything they touch when buffed to 2+ 2+.

Their weakness is to mortal wounds (and to generate mortal wounds), so a wise player always brings a Luminark. Luminarks provide a 6+ shrug save and a +1 unbind so they provide adequate protection against magic. You also get about 2 laser shots off per game, which can cripple a monster before it can act (shot a colossal Squig turn one and it flopped into my Griffon to die). Warp Lightning Cannons will be annoying as they can kill foot generals easily, but there's ways around that; like the aforementioned doom laser. Also handgunner snipers are good for this. I would not recommend anything from Ironweld though.

Edit: we also have the most efficient flying battletank in the game.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Knight Scáthach of Fimm

[EchoHavoc]

1 hour ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

Free Peoples hold the line like no one else; not because they're just tanky, but because they can thin your ranks before the combat phase even begins. Right now they are basically better Dispossessed due to access to cavalry and Collegiate Arcane. They are also 99% likely to get a battletome in the not too distant future.

If he's coming from 40k, I'd argue that Stormcast fit the bill better as they operate much like Space Marines. Free Peoples are more nuanced and difficult to play, but have distinct advantages; they aren't the equivalent to Imperial Guard though. They're my main army, and I find them very rewarding to play. However, large units of infantry are difficult to manage, so if he doesn't want to faff around moving dudes then Stormcast is probably the better pick, with access to greater flexibility; if you're in Free Peoples you're stuck there, but Stormcast can mix and match.

In my experience, Free Peoples can contend with most other armies and participate in all phases of the game (provided you have Collegiate Arcane). Now they might not be the strongest, but they definitely go down fighting to the last. They also often win the long game. They also have room to play aggressive, which nearly always catches my opponents off guard; they have cavalry for the enemy objectives, and suddenly breaking formation and charging a midfield unit can send opponents into disarray as they were expecting to come to you, so now their battleplan is triggered one or two turns early. With some good positioning you can even keep your ranged troops ready to overwatch with full bonuses. Greatswords are a good example of units that can suddenly break formation and rush an unsuspecting unit, because they can and will blend anything they touch when buffed to 2+ 2+.

Their weakness is to mortal wounds (and to generate mortal wounds), so a wise player always brings a Luminark. Luminarks provide a 6+ shrug save and a +1 unbind so they provide adequate protection against magic. You also get about 2 laser shots off per game, which can cripple a monster before it can act (shot a colossal Squig turn one and it flopped into my Griffon to die). Warp Lightning Cannons will be annoying as they can kill foot generals easily, but there's ways around that; like the aforementioned doom laser. Also handgunner snipers are good for this. I would not recommend anything from Ironweld though.

Edit: we also have the most efficient flying battletank in the game.

Thank you so much for this write up. I have shown my friend and he is interested to know more. 

I'm 40k he play nids so he is used to a high model count. 

What would a typical free people's list look like?

He is a little concerned by the lack of a battletome. I agree with you that they should get a tome in the future. Just not sure when. 

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

19 minutes ago, EchoHavoc said:

Thank you so much for this write up. I have shown my friend and he is interested to know more. 

I'm 40k he play nids so he is used to a high model count. 

What would a typical free people's list look like?

He is a little concerned by the lack of a battletome. I agree with you that they should get a tome in the future. Just not sure when. 

I can post my list; it's not designed to be competitive but I can take it most places and do adequately. The core units that you ought to or would be wise to include I will highlight. My list is rather Jack of All Trades with a bit of everything but not so much that it's sporadic and decentralized.  I may make the greatswords 30 and remove the archers but I find their screening potential invaluable. Cavalry is always important in a slow army; those Outriders are often the reason I win. Warlord Traits and items are down to your preference.

A unit of ranged infantry is staple, but I didn't highlight it as you have choices as to what kind you want; both are good. Ideally I'd have 30 handgunners, however they can get compromised very easily and I'm satisfied fielding 20. I also do not enjoy painting ranged troops that aren't archers.

As for the tome, I wouldn't worry about it; Free Peoples are adequately supported via the General's Handbook and they feature heavily in the lore. A tome will happen eventually.

 

Allegiance Abilities: Free Peoples Realm: Ghur

Allies: (360/400)

 

 

Leaders:

-General on Mount: 100 w/ Indomitable, Shield, and Stately War Banner (Army General)

-General on Griffon: 260 w/ Gryph Feather Charm (+1 move -1 to hit) great weapon, shield

 

 

-Luminark w/ Battlemage: 240

-Battlemage w/ Wildform: 120

 

 

Battleline:

-40 Freeguild Guard (swords/ shields): 280

-20 Freeguild Greatswords: 280

-10 Freeguild Archers: 100

-6 Demigryph Knights: 280

-20 Freeguild Handgunners: 200

Other:

-5 Freeguild Outriders: 130

Edited May 24, 2019 by Knight Scáthach of Fimm

[XReN]

Man, I love your list!

I really dig the estetics of Freeguild and from time to time I think about starting them

[mikethefish]

2 hours ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

They are also 99% likely to get a battletome in the not too distant future.

 

I dispute this statement.  This is wildly unlikely to happen.  Certainly not in the not too distant future, as you say

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

1 minute ago, mikethefish said:

 

I dispute this statement.  This is wildly unlikely to happen.  Certainly not in the not too distant future, as you say

Pretty sure they said at Warhammer fest that all supported armies in the next 2 years will get a tome.

[mikethefish]

Just now, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

Pretty sure they said at Warhammer fest that all supported armies in the next 2 years will get a tome.

Sure.  Free Peoples are not supported.  Supported means model updates, and having a Battle Tome.  GW has always been happy letting Free Peoples remain in GHB limbo.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

1 minute ago, mikethefish said:

Sure.  Free Peoples are not supported.  Supported means model updates, and having a Battle Tome.  GW has always been happy letting Free Peoples remain in GHB limbo.

No, supported means they have rules that get updated every year; Gitmob Grots are not supported and are being phased out by all accounts. Free Peoples are very much supported. Not entirely sure why you seem to think this, as when you recombine the old Empire range you get about 30 kits and so the means to make a battletome far larger than most. Not to mention they are on many book covers and appear in the lore all the time. Free Peoples will most definitely get their support in the future, either through a Battletome or another Firestorm expansion. To say they will be left in the dust forever is ludicrous when Flesh Eater Courts and Beastclaw Raiders can get a book.

[mikethefish]

10 minutes ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

No, supported means they have rules that get updated every year; Gitmob Grots are not supported and are being phased out by all accounts. Free Peoples are very much supported. Not entirely sure why you seem to think this, as when you recombine the old Empire range you get about 30 kits and so the means to make a battletome far larger than most. Not to mention they are on many book covers and appear in the lore all the time. Free Peoples will most definitely get their support in the future, either through a Battletome or another Firestorm expansion. To say they will be left in the dust forever is ludicrous when Flesh Eater Courts and Beastclaw Raiders can get a book.

The last thing GW wants to do is expand on their tired old Empire model range.  They don't fit into modern AoS at all.  The only reason they are on so many book covers is because that look is the only thing GW has to go on.  FEC and Beastclaw are unique looking and both fit into the AoS aesthetic.  You can't say that about the old Empire models.

But hey, maybe it will happen - GW loves to talk in vague and unclear language.  We shall have to see in the fullness of time, I suppose. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by mikethefish

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

Just now, mikethefish said:

The last thing GW wants to do is expand on their tired old Empire model range.  They don't fit into modern AoS at all.  The only reason they are on so many book covers is because that look is the only thing GW has to go on.  FEC and Beastclaw are unique looking and both turn into the AoS aesthetic.  You can't say that about the old Empire models.

But hey, maybe it will happen - GW loves to talk in vague and unclear language.  We shall have to see in the fullness of time, I suppose. 

I never said expand the range; Free Peoples will get the same treatment as everyone else; Battletome, Endless Spells and a terrain piece (unfortunately, I don't like the idea of free terrain). We won't get new models for them, and I don't count endless spells. And I don't agree with your statement; you sound as if you have insider knowledge about GW's intentions which I doubt; Free Peoples and their aesthetic appear on many books.... because that's just what they are and how they look.  I see the same argument every time; old Empire doesn't fit AoS, and that's utterly backwards. The whole thing about AoS is that almost anything can and does exist in this world, and we literally know they do as they appear on the novel covers.

 

This isn't even relevant to the thread so can we get back on track?

[mikethefish]

It's actually pretty relevant, since we are advising a new player an getting into an army that may or may not get a modern book.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

Just now, mikethefish said:

It's actually pretty relevant, since we are advising a new player an getting into an army that may or may not get a modern book.

I don't need a new battletome to play and do well in AoS, and he doesn't need to either.

[michu]

13 minutes ago, mikethefish said:

They don't fit into modern AoS at all. 

Yeah, entirely untrue - any stylistic fits into AoS. And old models are not a problem for GW  (look at  the skaven). We're now in the "Rule Update Phase" like in 40k - all existing factions with rules updated to AoS 2.0. And Free Peoples is an existing faction with medium good rules.

Edited May 24, 2019 by michu

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

I'm about to leave for the next 2 days or so, so I won't be able to reply to any questions.