AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion

[SHHump]

3 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

That is incorrect. The battalions keyword also matters. If the battalions keyword is not your allegiances keyword but a viable ally keyword, then it and all units within it count as allies (even if those units would normally not be allies). If the battalion lacks your allegiances keyword and any viable ally keyword, it can't be taken at all. This is why the mortal Everchosen battalions have stopped functioning in god armies in 2.0 and why the BoC battalions had to receive errata to function properly.

As for Gravesites, yes there are 2 differences between the LoN and LoG text that I see. Firstly, the line stating that "Gravesites have the following abilities" is completely absent in LoG. And 2nd is a single word difference, LoN states ..."while within 9" of THIS gravesite...", while LoG states "...while within 9" of A gravesite...".

The point is, battalions don't have faction keywords anymore - I'm looking at the Nighthaunt battalions as I type, no keywords.  And in the core book, all I can find is "If a player's army includes the units needed to field a warscroll battalion, then the player can include the battalion as part of their army by paying the points cost for it as shown on its Pitched Battle profile." I suppose its listed under the Nighthaunt pitched battle profile, but as far as I can tell the rules themselves seem to let you mix and match as you want.

 

And yeah, that's the difference in the gravesite rules.  In LoN, each gravesite has that ability so you use it once per site, giving you up to 4D3 healed wounds.  In LoG, the rule reads "At the start of your turn, pick a friendly summonable unit within 9" of a gravesite" which you can then heal/resurrect for - no mention of being able to do this once per gravesite, it's just 'pick one unit at the start of your turn'.  Again, I'm hoping that's a mistake, but it seems odd when they could have just copy pasted the wording from the LoN book.

[SHHump]

Whoops, some of my points had already been looked at, sorry.  But the point about keywords still stands - FAQ does not say that each battalion has the keyword of their battletome, just that "the faction a warscroll battalion belongs to is shown on its warscroll, above the title of the battalion. In addition, the battalion is assumed to belong to the Grand Alliance that its faction is a part of."  Now, as the newer ones don't show a faction keyword, I assumed that they were easier to use and allowing you to include (for instance) a Nighthaunt battalion in a LoG or LoN army.  However, the LoN designer commentary mentioned by Kenshin620 above seems to counteract that...

[kenshin620]

I think thats the point, RAI Battalions from Faction X have Faction X keyword.

 

Otherwise what was the point of the Beasts of Chaos Errata which had to resolve the RAW vs RAI debate.

Quote

Page 82 – Followers of the Brass Bull Change to: ‘Units from this battalion gain the Khorne keyword. In addition, this warscroll battalion is part of the Khorne faction and the Beasts of Chaos faction.

 

 

[I_usually_just_lurk]

I playtested 1k of LoG with a friend tonight. My list:

- Reikenor the Grimhailer. Spell: Shroud of Terror (8+, -D3 Bravery at 12’’)

- 3x Tomb Banshees, one is the General. Artefact: Grave-Sand Gem (heal 1 in hero phase). Trait: Tragic Emanation (-2 Bravery within 12’’)

- 10x Skeleton Warriors

- 10x Skeleton Warriors

- 5x Dreadscythe Harridans

- 5x Dreadscythe Harridans

- 5x Dreadscythe Harridans

- 5x Dreadscythe Harridans

- Chronomantic Cogs

It was pretty hard for my opponent to manage (he was playtesting new Sylvaneth stuff). Reikenor was there to drop Cogs (at +3), allowing him to reroll his saves and to cast two spells per turn (and thus snuff candles twice per turn). He could manage flak using his own spell, and do the bravery debuff at +3. The skeletons were there to give an additional -1 Bravery (at 6’’) and act as shields.

It worked out the way I figured: the banshees were able to snipe even Drycha (2D6 vs a modified bravery of 4, three times), all his stuff had -1 to hit because of the Harridans, and I was able to bring back 3 units of Harridans during the game. The healing of one unit for D3 (grave sites) was also a nice bonus; I had deployed my sites in a cross formation 18’’ apart. The Harridans were surprisingly blendy btw (I had never played with them). 16 attacks at 4+ 3+ -1 for 1 (or 2 on a wound of 6) is decent for 90 points... especially when they can be brought back!

My verdict on LoG is that as a NH player, I appreciate having different options opened to me for list building. This list wasn’t “good” per say (it’s easy to snipe the 4-wound General), and it would need tweaking, but I feel there’s some interesting possibilities with LoG.

[Thenord]

quick question; Do we have the same battleline units as Nighthaunt ie. Reapers and hexwraiths?

[Qrow]

4 minutes ago, Thenord said:

quick question; Do we have the same battleline units as Nighthaunt ie. Reapers and hexwraiths?

Nope, we have Leagions of Nagash battleline: skeletons, chainrasps, dire wolves and zombies.

[Platypus]

11 hours ago, SHHump said:

And yeah, that's the difference in the gravesite rules.  In LoN, each gravesite has that ability so you use it once per site, giving you up to 4D3 healed wounds.  In LoG, the rule reads "At the start of your turn, pick a friendly summonable unit within 9" of a gravesite" which you can then heal/resurrect for - no mention of being able to do this once per gravesite, it's just 'pick one unit at the start of your turn'.  Again, I'm hoping that's a mistake, but it seems odd when they could have just copy pasted the wording from the LoN book.

 

The difference could be explained by an upcoming nerf to LoN gravesites together with GHB2019. Maybe the LoG wording is the new LoN wording?

[Qrow]

Has anyone sent an email to the GQ FAQ team with these issues? I sent one last weekend asking about allies, locus of shyish, negative bravery and battalions, but it may be worth someone sending another with these new questions attached.

I highly doubt that they are changing how gravesite work only for LoG, especially if the name of the ability is the same. But if no one asks them, then they won't know to FAQ it. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Qrow

[lare2]

2 hours ago, I_usually_just_lurk said:

The skeletons were there to give an additional -1 Bravery (at 6’’) and act as shields.

Would skellies not be -2? -1 for LoG trait and another for their banner?

[Anzu]

1 hour ago, Qrow said:

Has anyone sent an email to the GQ FAQ team with these issues? I sent one last weekend asking about allies, locus of shyish, negative bravery and battalions, but it may be worth someone sending another with these new questions attached.

I highly doubt that they are changing how gravesite work only for LoG, especially if the name of the ability is the same. But if no one asks them, then they won't know to FAQ it. 

Yep I’ve just done this  When do we expect the FAQ, 2 weeks from release? 

[Qrow]

1 minute ago, Anzu said:

Yep I’ve just done this  When do we expect the FAQ, 2 weeks from release? 

Thank you! And around 2-3 weeks yeah, hopefully around the same time as the GH2019.

It think it may be hard to judge LoG right now honestly; I seriously doubt that they didn't take into account any changes coming in the GH when they playtested it.

[Anzu]

I agree, but even some answers to our questions will make it easier to judge. I hope that GW made LoG as a fully functioning LoN, and not just a whim in a book

[EMMachine]

35 minutes ago, Anzu said:

I agree, but even some answers to our questions will make it easier to judge. I hope that GW made LoG as a fully functioning LoN, and not just a whim in a book 

In theory it could be some sort of pre-version for an updated Legions of Nagash battletome. I mean, putting the Allegiance behind a 70€ paywall (that is not even available in the AoS App) is not the best way to release it and the Legions of Nagash book has some problems, after being the first mixed keyword books.

[Joseph Mackay]

my thoughts

with Legion of Grief now a thing, from the looks of it, combining the best parts of the Legion of Nagash and Nighthaunt allegience abillities, i hope they remove Nighthaunt units from Legion of Nagash unless you run the Legion of Grief allegience.

i have a major fear that GHB19 is going to increase the points of certain Nighthaunt units (Grimghast Reapers) simply becease they werent costed with the Legion of Nagash abilities in mind. nobody runs Nighthaunt allegience (around here at least) because the units simply preform better under the Legion of Nagash allegience, and i think this is a massive problem that needs to be fixed

id like to see Nagash faq'd out of Legion of Grief but that seems unlikely to be honest, he is the god of death afterall and the Nighthaunt work for him

Olyander being forced as general if you take her is on par with the other legions and their mortarch, however its unfortunate that you lose the -2 bravery command trait because of this

[Qrow]

1 minute ago, Joseph Mackay said:

my thoughts

with Legion of Grief now a thing, from the looks of it, combining the best parts of the Legion of Nagash and Nighthaunt allegience abillities, i hope they remove Nighthaunt units from Legion of Nagash unless you run the Legion of Grief allegience.

i have a major fear that GHB19 is going to increase the points of certain Nighthaunt units (Grimghast Reapers) simply becease they werent costed with the Legion of Nagash abilities in mind. nobody runs Nighthaunt allegience (around here at least) because the units simply preform better under the Legion of Nagash allegience, and i think this is a massive problem that needs to be fixed

id like to see Nagash faq'd out of Legion of Grief but that seems unlikely to be honest, he is the god of death afterall and the Nighthaunt work for him

Olyander being forced as general if you take her is on par with the other legions and their mortarch, however its unfortunate that you lose the -2 bravery command trait because of this

I have the same worry about reapers, it may just be the case that they are taken out of LoN standard availability, but I can't see much else in the nighthaunt roster going up in points. Most people I see and speak to, online and at tournaments, are expecting to see a small or moderate drop in the cost of many nighthaunt units.

As an aside, can anyone see themselves taking a mercenary ghoul king on terrorgheist? Even if we do get FAQ'd allies, and therefore the ability to take a normal terrorgheist, for just 100 points more you can get the GHoTG that has an auto heal, is a caster, and can summon a unit of crypt flayers (3x 2d6 -bravery mortal wound screams sounds pretty good with all the bravery debuffing)

[Battlefury]

Is the Legion of Grief allowed for matched play / competetive play?

[Qrow]

1 minute ago, Battlefury said:

Is the Legion of Grief allowed for matched play / competetive play?

Yes

[pseudonyme]

What would be the impact of reapers loosing their Summonable keyword, would it make them more balanced ?

[Qrow]

1 minute ago, pseudonyme said:

What would be the impact of reapers loosing their Summonable keyword, would it make them more balanced ?

Would ruin them for nighthaunt. A lot of our buffs, spells and abilities revolve around the summonable keyword. The problem does mostly seem to be reapers in LoN, not reapers in general

[I_usually_just_lurk]

4 hours ago, lare2 said:

Would skellies not be -2? -1 for LoG trait and another for their banner?

Yes, 6’’ -1 army-wide plus 6’’ -1 from the skeletons. 

[AverageBoss]

2 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

with Legion of Grief now a thing, from the looks of it, combining the best parts of the Legion of Nagash and Nighthaunt allegience abillities, i hope they remove Nighthaunt units from Legion of Nagash unless you run the Legion of Grief allegience.

That would get me to quit Death honestly. It gets really old really quick seeing my army being split apart, then stitched back together,
only to see it split apart again. I like having my vampires leading an undead army that includes ghosts. Can't do that with LoG.

54 minutes ago, Qrow said:

Would ruin them for nighthaunt. A lot of our buffs, spells and abilities revolve around the summonable keyword. The problem does mostly seem to be reapers in LoN, not reapers in general

Even then its mostly Grand Host and Sacrament. Night and Blood perform nowhere near as well. The 2 former are simply stronger allegiances (in both rules, traits, and artifacts), and Nagash and Arkhan are also both magnitudes better than Neferata and Manfred. And once realm spells became a things, both of them got that much stronger.

[STWLAM]

17 hours ago, SHHump said:

The point is, battalions don't have faction keywords anymore - I'm looking at the Nighthaunt battalions as I type, no keywords.  And in the core book, all I can find is "If a player's army includes the units needed to field a warscroll battalion, then the player can include the battalion as part of their army by paying the points cost for it as shown on its Pitched Battle profile." I suppose its listed under the Nighthaunt pitched battle profile, but as far as I can tell the rules themselves seem to let you mix and match as you want.

This is also addressed in the FAQ:

Quote

Q: Some warscroll battalions included in battletomes do not have a faction listed above their title. How do I determine which faction they belong to for the purposes of allegiance abilities?
A: The battalion belongs to the battletome’s faction. For example, the warscroll battalions in Battletome: Stormcast Eternals are part of the Stormcast Eternals faction.

 

[Joseph Mackay]

1 hour ago, AverageBoss said:

That would get me to quit Death honestly. It gets really old really quick seeing my army being split apart, then stitched back together,
only to see it split apart again. I like having my vampires leading an undead army that includes ghosts. Can't do that with LoG.

Grand Alliance Death would still allow this however

going forward, you cant expect Legion of Nagash to get all the new stuuf. if the next Death battletome is Soulblight or Deathrattle for example, id be very surprised if LON get access to any of the new units released for them aside from what they can already take.

Nighthaunt being allowed in LON created a problem where those units are better outside of their own allegience, any future death book will solve that problem by simply not allowing it to happen in the first place

[SHHump]

2 hours ago, STWLAM said:

This is also addressed in the FAQ:

 

Cheers - I managed to miss that entirely when I looked before!

[AverageBoss]

2 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Grand Alliance Death would still allow this however

going forward, you cant expect Legion of Nagash to get all the new stuuf. if the next Death battletome is Soulblight or Deathrattle for example, id be very surprised if LON get access to any of the new units released for them aside from what they can already take.

Nighthaunt being allowed in LON created a problem where those units are better outside of their own allegience, any future death book will solve that problem by simply not allowing it to happen in the first place

That would be because NH is a very low powerlevel book. It not only fairs poorly against Grand Host and Sacrament, but almost every other 2.0 and several 1.0 battletomes as well.

And if we strip all NH out of Legions just to make NH on its own seem stronger (seems like a very backwards way of doing things imo), then by that logic we would have to strip the others out of Legions as they get their own books until Legions simply does not exist any more.