AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion

[AidenNicol]

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

Are gravesites really why LoG is considered better than NH? Enough for some people to say NH is C tier and LoG is A?

Absolutely. Nighthaunt offers Wave of Terror which gives you a 13% or so chance to fight twice. 

The Unquiet Dead grants you a 100% chance to bring back a unit of 30 Grimghast Reapers with no dice roll. Also if you play it smart you can resurrect dead models on 32mm bases (i like Dreadscythes for this) in a conga line outward to expand your zone of control and set up charge moves or retreat moves to cop objectives.

 

As an aside i recommend you take Aetherquartz Broach off your general and give it to a different hero, currently all your eggs are sitting in a very fragile basket that can potentially die to only 2 D3 mortal wound spells.

[Bayul]

Quick questions:

Do you have a strategy to place your grave sites efficiently? I had a game today and really messed it up again by putting them to close to objectives.

If I play without the GHB 2019, what do / should I use my remaining command points for besides Endless Legions?

[AidenNicol]

6 hours ago, Bayul said:

Quick questions:

Do you have a strategy to place your grave sites efficiently? I had a game today and really messed it up again by putting them to close to objectives.

If I play without the GHB 2019, what do / should I use my remaining command points for besides Endless Legions?

I do. Point one, if your general isn't the Dreadblade Harrow, make it the general. 

Point 2. You want 3 of the objectives reasonably close together so that one unit can benefit from all three. This unit has been relegated as "extremely durable unit to soak threat targeting", for this role I reccomend 40 Chainrasps or 30 Grimghast Reapers, anything buffable with an ethereal save really. The other units in your army have been relegated to "bring back when dead". The fourth point goes behind the enemy army, 9 inches from the enemy table edge. This means that should they not commit forces to protecting this site, your general can instantly warp there and bring back a unit you threw into an aggressive fight earlier. 

Always be spending your units. Be as aggressive as you can. Your opponent isn't likely to be getting their stuff you kill back, but you will.

[EnixLHQ]

11 minutes ago, AidenNicol said:

You want 3 of the objectives reasonably close together so that one unit can benefit from all three. This unit has been relegated as "extremely durable unit to soak threat targeting", for this role I reccomend 40 Chainrasps or 30 Grimghast Reapers, anything buffable with an ethereal save really. 

Would these 3 be close to a main objective? Or the big ol' unit will be?

I'm imagining a triangle where the point is on your side. The rule is "within 9" so a large blob need only have enough models inside each grave's buff zone to trigger (taking into account losing a few models and not shrinking too much to be outside one).

That center is close to a major objective, or at an area one you know a lot of fighting will take place. The two away from you will be used for healing more than resurrections. The third one, the point that's close to you, is your resurrection pool.

Screen off that triangle point so that it's not easily overrun from a flank.

Throw everything else at the enemy and other objectives like a mad person.

Meanwhile the 4th grave in the opponent's back yard will make them paranoid not to move too far into the field lest you teleport for the flank.

Sound about right?

[AidenNicol]

4 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

Would these 3 be close to a main objective? Or the big ol' unit will be?

I'm imagining a triangle where the point is on your side. The rule is "within 9" so a large blob need only have enough models inside each grave's buff zone to trigger (taking into account losing a few models and not shrinking too much to be outside one).

That center is close to a major objective, or at an area one you know a lot of fighting will take place. The two away from you will be used for healing more than resurrections. The third one, the point that's close to you, is your resurrection pool.

Screen off that triangle point so that it's not easily overrun from a flank.

Throw everything else at the enemy and other objectives like a mad person.

Meanwhile the 4th grave in the opponent's back yard will make them paranoid not to move too far into the field lest you teleport for the flank.

Sound about right?

well the clever thing about my strategy is rather than trying to pick where you think the most fighting will take place, you actually get to decide EXACTLY where that will be. You put down those 3 sites dead close to one another and you're making a statement the enemy can't ignore.

Given how objectives work you're not going to know where the fighting will happen (Starstrike, Shifting Objectives etc.) so pick a central point and commit to that. Put buff heroes like Necro and ShroudKnight here to keep the unit as deadly as it is durable.

[Grimoriano]

Nice tips about graves. Now I have a question, is a good point mix deathrattle and nighthaunt? Or is more competitive focus on Nh with shroudknight...etc. thanks.

[AidenNicol]

33 minutes ago, Grimoriano said:

Nice tips about graves. Now I have a question, is a good point mix deathrattle and nighthaunt? Or is more competitive focus on Nh with shroudknight...etc. thanks.

Not a lot of point. All of the heroes we have that we pour the CP our army generates into require the NIGHTHAUNT keyword. The only non-nighthaunt units worth looking at in Legion of Grief are the Necromancer and Mortis Engine, depending on your play style.

[Aaranis]

Hey quick question, with the Invigorating Aura ability from the gravesites, is it ONE unit healed per turn or one unit per gravesite healed ? 

[AidenNicol]

1 hour ago, Aaranis said:

Hey quick question, with the Invigorating Aura ability from the gravesites, is it ONE unit healed per turn or one unit per gravesite healed ? 

Each gravesite can only heal one unit each per turn sadly. But one unit can receive healing from multiple sites, should they be eligible. 

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, AidenNicol said:

Each gravesite can only heal one unit each per turn sadly. But one unit can receive healing from multiple sites, should they be eligible. 

Yeah, Forbidden Power errata in July

"Page 70 – Battle Traits, Invigorating Aura
Change the rules text to:
‘Gravesites have the following ability:

At the start of your hero phase, pick 1 friendly
Summonable unit within 9" of this gravesite (see ‘The
Unquiet Dead’). You can either heal D3 wounds that
have been allocated to models in that unit or, if no
wounds are currently allocated to any models in the
unit, you can return a number of slain models to the
unit that have a combined Wounds characteristics equal
to or less than the roll of a D3.’"

Edited November 27, 2019 by EnixLHQ

[Aaranis]

1 hour ago, AidenNicol said:

Each gravesite can only heal one unit each per turn sadly. But one unit can receive healing from multiple sites, should they be eligible. 

Oh neat, I thought only one unit could be healed by gravesite at all, that we had to chose one. So if I have a big block of Reapers near three gravesites the block can be healed 3d3 models back ?

[Sauriv]

24 minutes ago, Aaranis said:

Oh neat, I thought only one unit could be healed by gravesite at all, that we had to chose one. So if I have a big block of Reapers near three gravesites the block can be healed 3d3 models back ?

Absolutely! 

Remember though that if you place them close it becomes harder for you to return destroyed units because of your opponent has an easier time blocking them. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Sauriv

[Aaranis]

It's getting harder and harder to play Nighthaunt competitively when chosing between them and LoG CP farm. Last game I ended up winning and had 5 CP left haha.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Aaranis
Mispell

[AidenNicol]

Did a list breakdown of my list for 2019 Masters NZ if anyone is interested.

 

 

[Ferrus65]

I like your list AidenNicol, and tactics-army list description is REALLY interesting!

[EnixLHQ]

Just finished a pre-holiday 1520 point fight between my LoG and my friend's Phoenix Guard from Cities of Sigmar.

 

[Aaranis]

Thanks for the tactics guys, it's motivating to see I'm not doing everything wrong and to witness the LoG gameplay unfold. I'm eager to play more games now !

[ZLee Syn]

Can you compare for me reapers, dreadscythes, banshees and revenants ?

What are their main advantages/disadvantages, what uses do they have and is there clear winner/looser?

[Spears]

29 minutes ago, ZLee Syn said:

Can you compare for me reapers, dreadscythes, banshees and revenants ?

What are their main advantages/disadvantages, what uses do they have and is there clear winner/looser?

If you check the previous page there is a fair bit of chat with differing opinions on this.

[ZLee Syn]

Read that but there is only stat comparasion and not types of uses.

I was thinking about this list

Dreadblade harrow (general)

Necromancer (aetherquartz brooch)

Guardian of souls Knight of shrouds

Knight of shrouds on ethereal steed

30 chainrasp horde

5 dire wolfs

5 dire wolfs

20 dreadscythe haradians

15 dreadscythe haradians

12 myrmiurn banshees

12 myrmourn banshees

Pendulum

Command point

 

What do you think? 

[EnixLHQ]

30 minutes ago, ZLee Syn said:

Can you compare for me reapers, dreadscythes, banshees and revenants ?

What are their main advantages/disadvantages, what uses do they have and is there clear winner/looser?

Grimghast Reapers: units of 10 to 30, 2" range, 2 attacks, 4+/3+/-1/1. Specials: One model is 3+/3+/-1/2 and if it kills a model splashes 1 MW, all scythes reroll failed hits of target unit has 5+ models.

One of the few units that can do a ton of damage without any buff support. There are two things to think about with Reapers. First, they are horde killers. That 4+ bothering you? Well, if you charge these guys against any unit with 5 or more targets you get to reroll failures. Chances are you will cut through half of that unit. Second, they have rend (this whole list will), which even with their not-great attack profile when up against 1 through 4 models, that rend lowers enemy saves. That makes these guys elite killers. Back them up with to-hit and to-wound buffs and they will rend through high opponent saves. Makes these guys very versatile. These guys are Batteline in Nighthaunt, as well, which makes them a nice pick to satisfy Pitched battle requirements.

Dreadscythe Harridans: units of 5 to 20, 1" range, 3 attacks, 4+/3+/-1/1. Specials: Wound rolls of 6 score 2 dmg instead of 1, -1 to hit if enemy melee unit has 5 or less bravery.

Assuming you can buff these guys, at least their to-hit with Knight of Shrouds on foot and a couple CP invested, these guys will likely be your highest damage dealers without much more finagling. With the buffs they will be on par with the Bladegheist Revanants in terms of damage profile, but they retain their 3 attacks no matter the phase or circumstance, and the occasional 2 damage lets these guys swing higher than their weight class. Their built-in aura debuff is also handy to keep them around if you can keep your enemy's bravery low. Also, rend.

Myrmourn Banshees: units of 4 to 12, 1" range, 1 attack, 4+/3+/-2/D3. Specials: +1 attack if unbind successful, +1 attack if dispel is successful, +to unbind.

At first glance these guys seem underwhelming except maybe as a short-ranged unbind attempt. But, their rend combined with D3 damage means that if they hit, they'll hit the hardest out this entire comparison. In order to do that effectively, though, you will need a lot of things to go your way; namely, unbinding a spell, getting a +1 attack from a KoSoES, +1 or 2 to hit from KoS on foot, +1 to wound from GoS... If set up correctly this unit will do the most damage, hands down. It just takes a lot of planning and luck to get it off. This is much easier to do in Nighthaunt than LoG as you can zone them in with From the Underworlds within their 18" unbind range. Oh, they have the highest rend of this comparison, so you know what that means.

Bladegheist Revenants: units 5 to 20, 1" range, 2 attacks, 3+/3+/-1/1. Specials: +1 attack on charge, can retreat and charge in the same turn.

These guys will do very respectable damage without much support at all. Charge, get the extra attack, and swing on 3s. Pretty nice. Also means that KoS need only invest 1 CP to give these guys a 2+. GoS near by and it's a 2+ on Wound. In other words: easy to buff, easy to damage, and with their built-in ability to retreat and charge you will never not be charging. What sets these guys aside from being "auto-picks", though, is what this loadout doesn't say, and that is that they lose an attack in all other phases. So, on your opponent's combat phase these guys only have 2 attacks. Not bad, but the whole reason you bring these guys is to swing for 3, right? Basically, it boils down to if you think you can buff these guys or not, or buff some Dreadscythes more reliably.

 

In my opinion you should always run Reapers as close to max as possible. They self-buff against hordes, their 2" range means they can fight in ranks and get all their attacks in, and in a pure NH army they are battleline, giving you freedom of choice for some Chainrasps to fill out the rest of  your battlelines.

Next come Dreadscythes which, while they work optimally with at least a KoS investing CPs into them, can deal out significant damage for less points than Bladegheists.

Then come Bladegheists which are more reliable with their damage if you can't buff them, but come up short if you can. If you are not confident you can keep buffs in the right places, take these.

Last are the Banshees. Last only because of the shenanigans you need to pull in order to get them swinging at potential. Consider these guys advanced mode. The payoff of bringing them is another unbind with a bonus, so against armies with a lot of magic you're better protected, and then their up-to-3 damage potential on each swing. Very risk/reward since their unbind is 18" and those attacks don't mean much if not in melee range. At least they keep their +attack until the next round unlike the Bladegheists...

[ZLee Syn]

11 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

Grimghast Reapers: units of 10 to 30, 2" range, 2 attacks, 4+/3+/-1/1. Specials: One model is 3+/3+/-1/2 and if it kills a model splashes 1 MW, all scythes reroll failed hits of target unit has 5+ models.

One of the few units that can do a ton of damage without any buff support. There are two things to think about with Reapers. First, they are horde killers. That 4+ bothering you? Well, if you charge these guys against any unit with 5 or more targets you get to reroll failures. Chances are you will cut through half of that unit. Second, they have rend (this whole list will), which even with their not-great attack profile when up against 1 through 4 models, that rend lowers enemy saves. That makes these guys elite killers. Back them up with to-hit and to-wound buffs and they will rend through high opponent saves. Makes these guys very versatile. These guys are Batteline in Nighthaunt, as well, which makes them a nice pick to satisfy Pitched battle requirements.

Dreadscythe Harridans: units of 5 to 20, 1" range, 3 attacks, 4+/3+/-1/1. Specials: Wound rolls of 6 score 2 dmg instead of 1, -1 to hit if enemy melee unit has 5 or less bravery.

Assuming you can buff these guys, at least their to-hit with Knight of Shrouds on foot and a couple CP invested, these guys will likely be your highest damage dealers without much more finagling. With the buffs they will be on par with the Bladegheist Revanants in terms of damage profile, but they retain their 3 attacks no matter the phase or circumstance, and the occasional 2 damage lets these guys swing higher than their weight class. Their built-in aura debuff is also handy to keep them around if you can keep your enemy's bravery low. Also, rend.

Myrmourn Banshees: units of 4 to 12, 1" range, 1 attack, 4+/3+/-2/D3. Specials: +1 attack if unbind successful, +1 attack if dispel is successful, +to unbind.

At first glance these guys seem underwhelming except maybe as a short-ranged unbind attempt. But, their rend combined with D3 damage means that if they hit, they'll hit the hardest out this entire comparison. In order to do that effectively, though, you will need a lot of things to go your way; namely, unbinding a spell, getting a +1 attack from a KoSoES, +1 or 2 to hit from KoS on foot, +1 to wound from GoS... If set up correctly this unit will do the most damage, hands down. It just takes a lot of planning and luck to get it off. This is much easier to do in Nighthaunt than LoG as you can zone them in with From the Underworlds within their 18" unbind range. Oh, they have the highest rend of this comparison, so you know what that means.

Bladegheist Revenants: units 5 to 20, 1" range, 2 attacks, 3+/3+/-1/1. Specials: +1 attack on charge, can retreat and charge in the same turn.

These guys will do very respectable damage without much support at all. Charge, get the extra attack, and swing on 3s. Pretty nice. Also means that KoS need only invest 1 CP to give these guys a 2+. GoS near by and it's a 2+ on Wound. In other words: easy to buff, easy to damage, and with their built-in ability to retreat and charge you will never not be charging. What sets these guys aside from being "auto-picks", though, is what this loadout doesn't say, and that is that they lose an attack in all other phases. So, on your opponent's combat phase these guys only have 2 attacks. Not bad, but the whole reason you bring these guys is to swing for 3, right? Basically, it boils down to if you think you can buff these guys or not, or buff some Dreadscythes more reliably.

 

In my opinion you should always run Reapers as close to max as possible. They self-buff against hordes, their 2" range means they can fight in ranks and get all their attacks in, and in a pure NH army they are battleline, giving you freedom of choice for some Chainrasps to fill out the rest of  your battlelines.

Next come Dreadscythes which, while they work optimally with at least a KoS investing CPs into them, can deal out significant damage for less points than Bladegheists.

Then come Bladegheists which are more reliable with their damage if you can't buff them, but come up short if you can. If you are not confident you can keep buffs in the right places, take these.

Last are the Banshees. Last only because of the shenanigans you need to pull in order to get them swinging at potential. Consider these guys advanced mode. The payoff of bringing them is another unbind with a bonus, so against armies with a lot of magic you're better protected, and then their up-to-3 damage potential on each swing. Very risk/reward since their unbind is 18" and those attacks don't mean much if not in melee range. At least they keep their +attack until the next round unlike the Bladegheists...

Thanks alot

Btw doesnt DHs work with bravery charasteristic? So no bonuses/debuffs?

[EnixLHQ]

-1 to be hit by enemy units within 3" if their bravery characteristic is 5 or lower. This combines with NH's natural -1 to bravery aura. So, unless your enemy can buff their bravery or ignore your debuff, if they bring a 6 bravery unit to a fight they will suffer a -1 to hit the DHs.

[ZLee Syn]

6 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

-1 to be hit by enemy units within 3" if their bravery characteristic is 5 or lower. This combines with NH's natural -1 to bravery aura. So, unless your enemy can buff their bravery or ignore your debuff, if they bring a 6 bravery unit to a fight they will suffer a -1 to hit the DHs.

I mean, isnt there a diference between bravery and bravery charasteristic?

[EnixLHQ]

A "characteristic" is synonymous with "stat".

On your warscroll card, your bravery (for most units) is 10. That means your bravery characteristic is 10. If you were fighting another NH army, their -1 bravery lowers yours to 9. Your bravery characteristic is now 9 when within range.

It's written this way because there are two kinds of buffs: buffs to stats and buffs to rolls. There is an important difference.

Buffs to stats/characteristics means that the die roll itself, if there is one, isn't affected. A roll of a 3 is still a 3.

Buffs to rolls means that the die outcome is modified. +1 to hit means that a roll of a 2 is effectively now a 3.