AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion

[lare2]

4 hours ago, Sauriv said:

You have a chance of getting 2 cp for each cp spent. This makes LoG unique among cp generating lists. The rule say that you get an extra (not "the one you just spend back") cp so it's just fine, roll both and hope for the best! 

The benefit of Kurdoss isn't just that you have a chance of getting one extra cp, but that you have a chance of denying your opponent a cp that could be very important! 

This makes a lot of sense! Thanks! 

[Bayul]

So is Kurdoss better as Reikenor in LoG because of CP generating?

I am thinking about buying the battleforce box and would replace Reikenor and 12 Myrmourn Banshees with Kurdoss and Hexwraiths. I'd lose a Wizard and the dispell from the banshees though. Is it worth it?

1st list with Reikenor

Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- General
- Trait: Vassal of the Craven King
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Reikenor the Grimhailer (170)
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (120)
Spirit Torment (120)
Necromancer (130)
- Spell: Wail of Doom
40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (320)
20 x Grimghast Reapers (320)
12 x Myrmourn Banshees (210)
Extra Command Point (50)
Suffocating Gravetide (20)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 140

2nd list with Kurdoss

Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- General
- Trait: Vassal of the Craven King
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Kurdoss Valentian, the Craven King (200)
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (120)
Spirit Torment (120)
Necromancer (130)
- Spell: Wail of Doom
40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (320)
20 x Grimghast Reapers (320)
5 x Hexwraiths (140)
Extra Command Point (50)
Horrorghast (60)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 138

[IkedaT]

Reikenor is likely your only shot to get those spells off consistently.  Kurdoss can ONLY grab the 1CP per round which is infuriating.  However, with some of the new CP generation (Bonecast, Mawtribes, etc) Kurdoss can't steal those.  So while I love to use him... his power is dwindling.  I find I DO need the CPs in LoG... re-rolls and Turn 2-5 regen... it's important.

 

[robpro]

Here's the list I'll be running at DaBoyz GT this weekend. I did my best but there might be room for one or two more ghosts somewhere. 

Allegiance: Legion of Grief
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (120)
- General
- Trait: Vassal of the Craven King
Necromancer (130)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Spell: Dread Withering
Necromancer (130)
- Spell: Dread Withering

Battleline
40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)
10 x Zombies (60)
10 x Zombies (60)

Units
30 x Grimghast Reapers (420)
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (320)
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (320)
2 x Chainghasts (70)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 150

[Bayul]

What makes you choose a KoSoES over a Dreadblade Harrow as general?

[robpro]

+1a command ability on the revenants and reapers.

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, robpro said:

+1a command ability on the revenants and reapers.

Don't need him as general for that.

[robpro]

4 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

Don't need him as general for that.

I figure he will be wholly within 18" at the start of the combat phase to pop the +1a command ability, so you may as well have him be your general to pop reroll 1s to hit or reroll 1s for saves at 18" range as well (there's also 12" BS immunity and certain realm commands that are 3" if its not your general). I don't think the harrow adds all that much, why need to keep 2 heros wholly within 18"? I basically went for as much punching power as I could get with the list.

Edited November 4, 2019 by robpro

[EnixLHQ]

8 minutes ago, robpro said:

I basically went for as much punching power as I could get with the list.

Totally agree with your assessment. If you're going full tilt then you're probably better off spending those 90 points in another place.

We've been choosing the Harrow because as long as he's not in combat at the start of the moment phase you have a teleport to a gravesite, which is quite powerful on the face of it. Putting your command trait and artifact on a model that can play the best game of "catch me if you can" just makes him a pretty top-tier pick in most lists.

Just pointing out that you don't need KoS, either on foot or steed, as your general to use his warscroll ability. But, if you plan on also leveraging all your CP on attack power instead of resurrections, then I think you have the right idea.

Though, I will point out that the command abilities you are referencing, like All Out Attack, don't need to come from a general either, they just get a larger range if they do. The realm-specific ones might, I never looked, but for the GHB ones it's an extra 6".

[robpro]

22 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

Though, I will point out that the command abilities you are referencing, like All Out Attack, don't need to come from a general either, they just get a larger range if they do. The realm-specific ones might, I never looked, but for the GHB ones it's an extra 6".

While they don't need to come from your general, the extra range is clutch when you're charging with revenants. It's tough to keep them within 12" of the chainghasts for rerolls, I can't imagine having to keep them within 18" of another and then 12-18" of another to get all the buffs you want. With 5+/5+ to get a command point every time you spend one, you should be pretty good for resurrecting units or hitting hard, as long as you pick the right units to buff and don't fail all those rolls each turn. I intentionally put the list at 1960 to shoot for a triumph every game as basically all of those are useful out of LoG.

[Bayul]

Your Dreadblade Harrow's role isn't to buff anything, you use him to resurrect your units from your multiple gravesites on the battlefield with Phantasmal Discorporation.  Your stuff will die and gravesites require your general to be within 9" of them. You can't expect to achieve this with a KoS who tries to follow your charging Bladegheits.

I'd argue that there's more punching power overall when you resurrect your units once or twice.

[robpro]

I don't think you need a unit that's role isn't to buff anything when your guy's that buff things can also resurrect things. It's not too hard to have your knight of shrouds in a good spot to bring two units back and still be close enough to the fight to buff a unit. I find I usually setup one safe gravite and then three along the center line of the battle. If you can clear the middle, you can start pushing past into whatever is going on with your opponents deployment or climb up a flank with retreat and charge revenants. 

 I think you can definitely build around harrows, but I think they're more useful if you're going to stick a gravesite or two way in the back of your opponents deployment and long bomb some grave site setups back there. You really want cogs with a build like that too.  I think those lists are very different than what I'm trying to do with this one, figured I'd share another approach to LoG. 

[EnixLHQ]

I think doing anything that works is worth looking at.

Imean, let's not fall back into the "Bravery Bomb" situation, where any LoG list that didn't include trying to make -8 Bravery was "wrong".

Build how you like and let's hear the results!

[IkedaT]

We'll see.. I found my Harrows very effective because they could be anywhere between the 4 graveyards I spread out across the field on ANY turn.  I don't know the Steed can do that, and I'd personally want him close to combat.  We'll see. 

As far as the Bravery bomb goes, having so many armies flippantly ignoring a whole point of an army kills that in any non-fluffy situation.  You can't go to a tourney where 1/4 matchups are bad matchups from the getgo.

[robpro]

I always thought the bravery bomb stuff was cute but armies are typically immune to it where it matters the most (battleshock). It would be nice if running 4 tomb banshees screened with chainrasps vs -8 bravery things did enough work, but I've never been able to reliably pull that off. 

I feel like the big strength of Legion of Grief is how much punch you can pack into one round of combat, and recursion ensures that unless your opponent wins the right double turn you're gonna fight through and keep them on the backfoot. Price jacks to almost everything good in LoN really hurt, so I got rid of tricks for treats in this build. Planning to whip up something tasty with Bonereapers after Daboyz, but if I do well maybe I'll stick with the spooky bois. 

[Yamarahj34]

Everyone talks about the bravery bomb as a method for removing models via battleshock, and therefore give it no value versus armies with immunity. I went with a different use for the bravery bomb and have found it to be quite usefull.  Bravery debuffs can be be a great way to inflict mortal wounds in an aoe, which makes it very hard for your opponent to recover as you create pressure on multiple units at once. With multiple units at -4 bravery the mortis engines/olynder are a great source of consistent damage, and the banshee can focus on heroes/special units.

This list may not be ultra competitive in the tournament scene but I have faced serveral armies that have a tough time with it. The zombies/chainwrasps are hard the chew through and the skeletons can punch back pretty hard with van hels. Hide your heavy hitters just behind your front line and deal consistent aoe pressure. I usually pop both of the mortis engine once per game abilities on round 2-3 when the most enemies are in range, and the healing helps to counter act any shooting at your engines.

In more casual games its not at all hard to table your opponents.

[EnixLHQ]

LoG is a thematic, narrative faction that was made for the story told in Forbidden Power. The bravery manipulation fits that, as does forcing Olynder to be a general. However, I'm sure GW knew when they released it that LoG was going to see some use, maybe even competitively, since it gives NH players pretty much their only other way to play unless they have a ton of other Death units already.

I think that's why there are some truly useful other traits and abilities to use. If they expected bravery to be the primary method to play they would have included ways to force battleshock or extending Dreadscythe's/Tomb Banshee/or some other bravery mechanic across more of the army. Lacking that, I think they expected LoG to be testing ground for a NH-centric legion and is unfinished, but surprisingly strong when thinking outside of the box.

(Feel free to skip all this, it's just my opinion)

Spoiler

 

Right now, using LoG's bravery mechanics is only useful against inexperienced players, armies with already mid-to-low bravery, or anyone CP starved without bravery/battleshock protections. That's a very narrow list. Oh, and you have to get your spells off, your general in the right position, and bring some very specific units. That kind of risk/reward is not balanced here. You do not get anything special for adhering to this when you could go the CP refund route and net, arguably, a stronger army. Sport slick tires vs all-weathers. You're already going to get trounced if you bring a bad list to a matchup, but at least non-bravery methods still have a chance.

That's not saying it wouldn't be fun to play. Casually, for sure. But almost everyone, even the newest players, take to the internet to find tournament lists and want to know what tier their army is. Tons of legit reasons why, too. I, for example, do this because of the escalation; I have a good army that's hard to beat, so my friend finds a top-tier list for his army. Now his is the "one to beat" and another friend invests into one of the newest (and most unbalanced) books and armies. Now I need to up my game to stay competitive.

LoG strikes me as a slower, more controlled way to play. It feels like chess. You have zones you need to control, the very presence of a gravesite adding pseudo-objectives for your opponent to want to capture. You lose a little bit of your healing and almost everything else that made NH terrifying, but gain a horrifying presence in being able to bring back your best units. Your opponent can't rest if they take down your extremely damaging unit, they'll be right back soon. The lack of "wholly within" means you can take up more space. The trade off is that you are protected by your zones in addition to your heroes, and lose your power if you get too far away from them. Your gravesites deserve just as much deployment consideration as your units do, and your newly resurrected units will likely be out of a hero's range on their way back to the fight.

NH feels more like the army it's lored to be, shock troops. Ambushers. Small groups of a unit or two with a hero each. They show up, charge right away, and lay waste. A lot of power in smaller spaces, which means you have to move like a wave. Plenty of risk/reward here too, as if you don't nail that charge you are lose an unanswered chance to bring damage. Your battalions promote the idea of keeping your heroes close and shore up where you might be weak. I have always felt that battalions, by the way, aren't bad after the top two/three (Shroudguard and Chainguard/Condemned), they are your way of tailoring your list to the army you're about to fight.

Personally, I'm looking to have way more games with LoG under my belt so I can feel out which is the most solid way to play for me. I see a ton of potential with LoG, but it's not exactly ready yet. NH, though, feels too risky and too lackluster now that a lot of things that came out since then can either specifically target NH, ignore our best offensive abilities, or just overpower us.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by EnixLHQ

[EnixLHQ]

Rate My LoG

I'm going to be taking this up against either Stormcast or Cities Hammerhal or Hallowheart. Depends on who shows up, really.

The plan is to have a unit of Chainrasps tucked in tight with the Spirit Torment as my anvil. The other Chainrasps will be cozy with the Necromancer, hopefully able to camp an objective as well as be in range to cast Danse whenever I need it. The Chainghasts will stick to the Bladegheists even if the ST is out of range, and keep the KoS with them, to be a hammer. The Reapers will push forward against any horde enemies, but otherwise will act as support for the Chainrasps.

[Thamalys]

On 11/9/2019 at 4:23 AM, EnixLHQ said:

Rate My LoG

I'm going to be taking this up against either Stormcast or Cities Hammerhal or Hallowheart. Depends on who shows up, really.

The plan is to have a unit of Chainrasps tucked in tight with the Spirit Torment as my anvil. The other Chainrasps will be cozy with the Necromancer, hopefully able to camp an objective as well as be in range to cast Danse whenever I need it. The Chainghasts will stick to the Bladegheists even if the ST is out of range, and keep the KoS with them, to be a hammer. The Reapers will push forward against any horde enemies, but otherwise will act as support for the Chainrasps.

Good stuff - I like it. My only concern is the DH as your general - I get the reason(S) why, but the risk of losing him real soon (shooting, MWs...) is real... and when that happens, the awesomeness of Endless Legions goes down the drain...

I have run the Brooch quite a few times, but it's so unreliable... as you already have the Vassal of the Craven King as your trait for that 5+ CP back, I would either bring in a less squishy general (would Lady Olynder be an option? Cutting on those Bladegheist Reventants, maybe? It's impossible to get 20 in anyway...) or give the DH the Gryph-feather Charm (that, plus cover anytime available [and there's always some piece of terrain around for a tiny DH] should make it a bit more durable). 

Just a very personal set of thoughts, though!

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, Thamalys said:

Good stuff - I like it. My only concern is the DH as your general - I get the reason(S) why, but the risk of losing him real soon (shooting, MWs...) is real... and when that happens, the awesomeness of Endless Legions goes down the drain...

I have run the Brooch quite a few times, but it's so unreliable... as you already have the Vassal of the Craven King as your trait for that 5+ CP back, I would either bring in a less squishy general (would Lady Olynder be an option? Cutting on those Bladegheist Reventants, maybe? It's impossible to get 20 in anyway...) or give the DH the Gryph-feather Charm (that, plus cover anytime available [and there's always some piece of terrain around for a tiny DH] should make it a bit more durable). 

Just a very personal set of thoughts, though!

Ran two games with this list.

Game one I ended up gaining 8 CP in addition to the 1 per turn. The DH as a general was a superstar, able to blink away at the slightest sign of danger. In the early game that was to another gravesite, but later it was just "away".

My opponent (Hammerhal) was able to zone out my gravesites eventually by sitting small units right on top of them and as a result I lost, but this was due to me making some very dumb mistakes that left them open. Still, even without my graves being able to buff the attacks on all my units without worry of being CP starved I wrecked shop. I lost, but it was because often found myself rushing into a fight and coming up short. If I had played more tactically I would have easily won. My opponent told me how scared he was.

 

The second game was very short. Stormcast with an uber elite squad tactic. I set up by putting my Reapers as a screen to protect my general (it was moving objective battle plan) and he placed that squad right across from them. He was able to move, charge, and destroy my Reapers at the end of turn one and got the double turn to kill my general at the top of turn 2. We kept playing just to see how tough I was without him, but the game was basically over. 4 turns, got him down to his last legs, but he won overwhelmingly on points.

 

Lessons learned: Vassal and Aetherquartz on an unnamed general is no gimmick. In an army that has multiple ways of spending CP sitting on a mound of them is tasty.

I'm not sold on large unit sizes. Zoning your Gravesites aside, smaller units protect against a ton of wounds routing out your entire protective line. I'll be trying a smaller numerous unit approach next time.

I played against opponents who know that NH/LoG need their heroes to be effective and they targeted them relentlessly. The DH as the general was by far the best way to keep him out of danger. But, you have to think a turn ahead on his movements or you will put him in a corner.

Put a couple units in the grave. I didn't do that in either game and both opponents told me afterwards that they were terrified of me doing it. They said that when a unit is in the grave they feel forced to spread out wider and in a more vulnerable way just to make sure you don't zone in behind them. That coupled with the graves themselves made them think they were playing a 7-objective game. They both said they had to wait for my mistakes to make their moves, and if I had units in reserve I would have been able to "undo" a mistake by reenforcing a weak area.

[Aaranis]

So as I understand it it's safer to play LoG as an endless pit of CPs than with the Bravery bombs ? I played my first LoG game at 1000 pts the other day and got completely wrecked, though it was against Hermgar (something along this word) 2x10 Berzerkers, 10 HG Berzerkers, Runedad on Magmadroth and Priest on foot.

When he announced me he ignored battleshock when entirely near an objective I was like "Ah-a" looking at my Banshee and my -6 Bravery shenanigans. Long story short I lost badly.

But it seems the tactic is more around MSU, Aetherquartz + Vassal and drown the opponent in waves. Cogs should be nice to add so that the summoned units can join the fight right off the grave. Looks way more reliable than Bravery bombing. Although I'm not sure if LoG is better or worse at 1000 pts level, but I'm planning to expand anyway.

Also quick question, I've heard of players playing Legions and still having Waves of Terror, is this some Allies ability or something else ? Or just illegal ? 

Thanks for reading, this thread (and forum) is a goldmine of information for me !

[Sauriv]

5 minutes ago, Aaranis said:

So as I understand it it's safer to play LoG as an endless pit of CPs than with the Bravery bombs ? I played my first LoG game at 1000 pts the other day and got completely wrecked, though it was against Hermgar (something along this word) 2x10 Berzerkers, 10 HG Berzerkers, Runedad on Magmadroth and Priest on foot.

When he announced me he ignored battleshock when entirely near an objective I was like "Ah-a" looking at my Banshee and my -6 Bravery shenanigans. Long story short I lost badly.

But it seems the tactic is more around MSU, Aetherquartz + Vassal and drown the opponent in waves. Cogs should be nice to add so that the summoned units can join the fight right off the grave. Looks way more reliable than Bravery bombing. Although I'm not sure if LoG is better or worse at 1000 pts level, but I'm planning to expand anyway.

Also quick question, I've heard of players playing Legions and still having Waves of Terror, is this some Allies ability or something else ? Or just illegal ? 

Thanks for reading, this thread (and forum) is a goldmine of information for me !

Playing LoG has no connection to the NH book, just because books share units doesn't mean someone can pick nice things from both. Its one or the other. 

[Sauriv]

I have thought of including 2 Dreadblades just to be abe to hide more units and use the "fake" one to do riskier moves, bringing dudes up from the grave. 

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, Aaranis said:

So as I understand it it's safer to play LoG as an endless pit of CPs than with the Bravery bombs ? I played my first LoG game at 1000 pts the other day and got completely wrecked, though it was against Hermgar (something along this word) 2x10 Berzerkers, 10 HG Berzerkers, Runedad on Magmadroth and Priest on foot.

When he announced me he ignored battleshock when entirely near an objective I was like "Ah-a" looking at my Banshee and my -6 Bravery shenanigans. Long story short I lost badly.

But it seems the tactic is more around MSU, Aetherquartz + Vassal and drown the opponent in waves. Cogs should be nice to add so that the summoned units can join the fight right off the grave. Looks way more reliable than Bravery bombing. Although I'm not sure if LoG is better or worse at 1000 pts level, but I'm planning to expand anyway.

Also quick question, I've heard of players playing Legions and still having Waves of Terror, is this some Allies ability or something else ? Or just illegal ? 

Thanks for reading, this thread (and forum) is a goldmine of information for me !

Bravery Bomb is fun, but it's not competitive since any army can ignore battleshock for a CP, and a lot of armies have other built-in protections against bravery mattering at all. It can be a devastating method of play, but only if your opponent has no answer for it.

The Vassals+Aetherquartz is just a tactic among several, but it seems the most popular. This is because per the wording of both abilities you can potentially gain 2 CP every time you spend 1. CP = grave resurrections. CP = KoS buff. CP = auto-pass battleshock. Reroll charges, All Out Attack/Defense. Your options just open up. But, it's still a gamble, 4+s and all.

Cogs, yes, but remember that your opponent also benefits from the speed.

1K points feels stronger to me as Nighthaunt, but I haven't played LoG at that level. At 1500 I really like LoG.

Wave of Terror is a Nighthaunt allegiance ability = any charge roll of a natural 10 (or 9 in the Deathriders battalion) and that unit gets to fight immediately (in the charge phase). This fight cannot be countered. They can still fight in the combat phase. About a 16% chance. 26% in the battalion.

Necromancers, who are full-fledged members of LoG have the spell Manhel's Danse Macabre. For a cast value of 6 a selected unit can be picked to pile in and fight again in the combat phase. This can be countered as it just means you didn't exhaust the unit that fought and has this buff. It's not as powerful, but slightly more reliable. It's a spell, so you can for sure cast it, but you have about a 70% chance to get it off, followed by an unbind attempt. And then, once buffed, that unit could take a lot of damage before you'd want it to attack again.

If your LoG opponent was using any NH allegiance abilities, including battalions, it was illegal.

Edited November 11, 2019 by EnixLHQ

[Keith]

Hi all

I am looking for some thing different to play besides Night haunt.

So how does this look ?

It has a bit of fun with spells. I cant see any use for the other Legion of Grief spells  Hence they all have Dread Withering.

The 3 spells are a real disappointment , why couldn't they just make up 3 more spells

Allegiance: Legion of Grief
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- General
- Trait: Vassal of the Craven King
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
Necromancer (130)
- Spell: Dread Withering
Necromancer (130)
- Spell: Dread Withering
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- Spell: Dread Withering

Battleline
5 x Dire Wolves (70)
5 x Dire Wolves (70)
5 x Dire Wolves (70)

Units
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (320)
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (320)
30 x Grimghast Reapers (420)
1 x Corpse Cart (80)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Aethervoid Pendulum (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 126