AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion

[Battlefury]

So did I interpret it correct, that the Legion of Grief itself can not include any battalion?

[Strijkijzer]

10 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

So did I interpret it correct, that the Legion of Grief itself can not include any battalion?

Correct

[Battlefury]

People in my community where just wondering, if it could use battalion. But as I see, the Legion of Grief is part of the Legions of Nagash Allegiance ( Battletome ) and can not form a battalion, since there is no battalion in the book, that would allow the keywords to be used, that potentially could be used with all the Nighthaunt stuff.

Could you confirm, that the Lgion of Grief is part of the Legions of Nagash Allegiance / Battletome?

 

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Battlefury

[Sauriv]

19 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

Could you confirm, that the Lgion of Grief is part of the Legions of Nagash Allegiance / Battletome?

No it's not part of Legions of Nagash, it has nothing to do with that book at this point in time. 

[ColsBols]

then why why why WHY would you call it a legion and fluff it like it is????

[Sauriv]

I would guess that it's because of the problems of having rules affecting a Allegiance from multiple books. 

Imagine that you would have to buy 2 books to be able to play LoG... And reprinting all the LoN stuff in the book would also be weird (and expensive for gw) . 

I believe that LoG will be properly added in the next release of Legions of Nagash, or being removed(probably not). 

[XReN]

14 hours ago, ColsBols said:

then why why why WHY would you call it a legion and fluff it like it is????

Obviously because it's a Legion fluff wise, but it's ruled by Lady Olinder and therefore have it's own distinct identity, whille Manfred, Neferata and Arkhan are ancient creatures used to command skeleton hordes, deadwalkers and vampires and also trained in lores of death and vampire - Olynder is quite different and has her own way of commanding.

Also it's just a very poor release, considering non-existent allies and battalions.

[RuneBrush]

I think when Legion of Grief was written, it was really only intended to be used within a Forbidden Power campaign, which is why the two allegiances within that book only received a couple of pages each (and a half-sized spell Lore).  In a not entirely surprising move, quite a few of us went "this is fantastic!" for a variety of reasons and decided to built whole armies around it 😂

I'm hoping that at some point they redo battalions - including how they impact games through to clarifying exactly how you include them in armies such as ours.

[flowerpot_chimp]

Yeah I think the way the Legions book is written cuts against a lot of how armies in modern AoS are built, which makes me hope we'll see a v2 sooner or later (not being able to take the obvious soulblight battalion in a soulblight allegiance army and the Deathmarch being keyword "Death" is just bizarre). I still think what you gain from running Grief is worth what you give up, so long as you take the right units.

For content: I took LoG to the LGT singles the other weekend. I went 3-2 over the weekend and got best LoG player (there were 2 of us). I could probably have won one of the games I lost had I played it better, but then that would have changed my other matchups afterwards so who knows. List was:

Allegiance: Legion of Grief
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- General
- Trait: Vassal of the Craven King
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Knight of Shrouds (100)
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (120)
Kurdoss Valentian, the Craven King (200)
Necromancer (130)
- Spell: Shroud of Terror
Reikenor the Grimhailer (170)
- Spell: Dread Withering

Battleline
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears

Units
12 x Myrmourn Banshees (210)
12 x Myrmourn Banshees (210)
15 x Bladegheist Revenants (270)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 134

So pretty standard CP spam build, I wont batrep unless people want but I do have some takeaways that might be useful. 

Myrmourn banshees are really difficult to use right, but when you do set them up to succeed correctly they're absolute monsters. Over the weekend they one-rounded a maw-krusha, a unit of 10 brutes (who attacked them first!), multiple units of sequitors and a bunch of rats. 

The Dreadblade general is an obviously good combo and he never died in any of my games. Teleporting to gravesites is brilliant, when the CP farm works it's great but it's very random on an army that's already very reliant on rolling lots of 4+s! 

Reiknor without an endless spell to cast is rubbish, I found I was mostly using him for his super fast movement more than his spells. In some matchups dread withering is fantastic, in others it doesn't do anything at all. Even against hordes, his effectively 2d3 mortal wound default spell doesn't feel impactful enough.

Kurdoss is hilarious. You absolutely cannot count on him to do anything at all because his ability only activates on a 5+ and he's super slow. However, people absolutely love to target him, and he soaked a lot of firepower that could have gone elsewhere. I stole the CP of an anvils player for two turns in a row, which was hilarious. If he actually makes it into combat he dishes it out fairly well. Not worth 200 points at all, but he's really fun.

I wish I had another 40 chainrasp painted instead of the skeletons. Their theoretical damage output is great but in reality it never really materialises. Chainrasp would have had better synergy with the knights of shrouds as well.

[Evil Bob]

On 9/19/2019 at 5:43 AM, flowerpot_chimp said:

Snip

I wish I had another 40 chainrasp painted instead of the skeletons. Their theoretical damage output is great but in reality it never really materialises. Chainrasp would have had better synergy with the knights of shrouds as well.

Amen to that.  Most other armies have more mobile battlines/elites with enough dice to seriously mess-up most Death battlines on the charge.  Use of skeleton or ghouls at the local club is turning into a real art form in the face of current power-creep.  In my case it involves trying to control the hostile’s charge to mitigate the impact.  Otherwise I bring twenty or forty chainwrasps when the job is objective holding.

[IkedaT]

Here's what I'm running, tell me what you think to tweak.  I ran it tonight against FEC list and it didn't do great but I think I misplayed a couple of key points.

 

________________________________________________________________________________

LEADERS

Dreadblade Harrow (90) - General - Artefact : Aetherquartz Brooch

(teleporting, CP respawn, dropping the 20 Dreadscythes that are generally "in the grave")

Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140) - Spell : Wail of Doom

(buffing/healing center of field)

Tomb Banshee (80) Reikenor the Grimhailer (170) - Spell : Dread Withering

(should I run into Gobbo's or low Bravery, I'd like to try to make them run, but I think we're seeing so few units affected by Bravery bombs I'm not sure I want to invest more (like Olynder or another Banshee)

Necromancer (130) - Spell : Shroud of Terror

(slow little ******, but his spell is the only reason I can see keeping him)

Kurdoss Valentian, the Craven King (200)

(steals CP, if I can find a vector into the general, otherwise he sits back and tries to grab an objective)

UNITS

20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)

(10 is too few, 30 seems like too much.  Fills battleline roles, though I'm not sure if better than or worse than skels.  They did quite a bit of damage tonight but they're so slow I worry I can't get them into adequate combat)

20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)

20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)

4 x Myrmourn Banshees (70)

(spread these wide to try to dispel.  I'm not sure 4 is enough, but bigger units tend to get taken down easier.  Could just be my experience.  I'm not sure how to run them short of lists like above where you're playing 24 of them)

4 x Myrmourn Banshees (70)

3 x Spirit Hosts (120)

(Token annoyance.  Not sure if I want to keep these but I like the model)  

20 x Dreadscythe Harridans (280)

(I chose these as they have a slightly better avg than the Blades on non-charge turns.  In the grave means they pop out in any of 4 spots when I can.  It means enemies have to devote units to cover each graveyard to prevent them from appearing)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN

Horrorghast (60)

(Bravery Debuff for anti-troop armies)

Purple Sun of Shyish (50)

(fun little FU when it goes off.  Killed a terrorgeist tonight with it so that was pleasant)

 

________________________________________________________________________________

 

So how do you think I can tweak?  Any advice to try to play this list better?  Maggotkin's 5+ is so much better than their 6+ and this is so very reliant on hero's being RIGHT behind troops (which makes charges hard to manage, IMO)

I'm normally a Chaos/Maggotkin player so this is a list I'm trying to paint/ready for upcoming tourneys.

[frostfire]

I have seen people taking the dreadblade horrow as the general, what’s the point exactly?

[IkedaT]

30 minutes ago, frostfire said:

I have seen people taking the dreadblade horrow as the general, what’s the point exactly?

Dreadblade has a couple of features. 
1)  Not named, can take artefact. 
2)  teleports anywhere outside of 9" of enemy.

3)  Can use said teleport to hop onto graveyard and use the 1CP return unit function

4)  If playing Nighthaunt he teleports people TO him for 1CP

5)  Can teleport near units IN combat so they get their hero bonus'.

 

[flowerpot_chimp]

On 9/25/2019 at 3:52 AM, IkedaT said:

[snip]

________________________________________________________________________________

 

So how do you think I can tweak?  Any advice to try to play this list better?  Maggotkin's 5+ is so much better than their 6+ and this is so very reliant on hero's being RIGHT behind troops (which makes charges hard to manage, IMO)

I'm normally a Chaos/Maggotkin player so this is a list I'm trying to paint/ready for upcoming tourneys.

 

I think the basis is alright but you've spent too many points on stuff that doesn't really do anything. You've only really got one unit that can fight. 3x20 chainrasp is probably overkill, they'll probably do you well as 40, 10 10. The 40 blob can fight and takes ages to kill, the 10s are great objective holders and aren't too unwieldy to use. They're much better than skeletons for what you want them to be doing, I think.

You don't really need both the guardian of souls and the necromancer, I would personally drop the guardian and the tomb banshee out the list. If you want a hero to buff your ghosts, the KoS on steed is better at it and you don't really need the guardian's spell in LoG. If you drop the guardian and do the 40, 10, 10 you gain enough points for 10 bladegheists!

I'd put all the banshees into one unit, makes them better at dispelling and means they can actually fight, but you have to buff their attacks first really. They're not really worth it just as an 18" unbind, like you mentioned. 

I like spirit hosts but you have to commit to bigger units of them to be worth it, otherwise they're just a roadblock and your army already has plenty of that with all the chainrasps.

Finally I reckon you can afford to be much more aggro with kurdoss than just objective holding, you can do that with chainrasps. Even without the buff for fighting the enemy general he's pretty pokey and can do a lot of damage. He has to be fighting because he's expensive and you can't afford to spend 200 points on maybe stealing a CP. 

[Bayul]

That's really good advice @flowerpot_chimp, especially the 40-10-10 battleline and KoSoES. I am still shopping towards 2000 points, but this my planned list:

Allegiance: Legion of Grief

Leaders
Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- General
- Trait: Vassal of the Craven King
- Artefact: Grave-sand Gem
Reikenor the Grimhailer (170)
- Spell: Wail of Doom
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (120)
Spirit Torment (120)
Necromancer (130)
- Spell: Wail of Doom

Battleline
40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)

Units
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (320)
20 x Grimghast Reapers (320)
12 x Myrmourn Banshees (210)

Endless Spells / Terrain
Horrorghast (60)
Suffocating Gravetide (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 140

I'll probably take a Spirit Torment as support for my Bladegheists instead of Kurdoss Valentian. That leaves me some points for endless spells for Reikenor to choose from.

[IkedaT]

That's an interesting list.  I chose Haridans's over Revenants because I find that Bladegeists tend to be in battle and I lose some DMG when it's not my turn.  Kurdoss OTOH, maybe I'm rolling hot, but he's stolen 2-4 CP every game for me.  He's my personal hero.  I like where your list is though @Bayul  Time for me to tweak some more.

Edited September 28, 2019 by IkedaT

[RuneBrush]

Out of curiosity, what would people be veering towards for a 1000 point list?  Currently writing up my lists for WH Achievements and that includes a 1000 point list that can be used for doubles games.

[Scurvydog]

For 1k I like something like this:

 

Allegiance: Legion of Grief - Mortal Realm: Hysh

LEADERS
Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- General
- Command Trait : Vassal of the Craven King
Spirit Torment (120)
- Artefact : Aetherquartz Brooch
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)

UNITS
20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)

TOTAL: 1000/1000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 65
LEADERS: 3/4 BATTLELINES: 2 (2+) BEHEMOTHS: 0/2 ARTILLERY: 0/2
ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ALLIES: 0/200

There might be better lists, but this one is very mobile, got a lot of CP generation, so ideally you should be able to play reckless with the bladegheists and grind down your enemy, while keeping the dreadblade safe at all costs. It might even be more CP than needed, but with the new reroll 1 to hit from GHB19 you can never have enough! 

Being able to teleport around and bring bladegheist units back can be very hard to deal with, especially in a small scale game and the Bladegheists got decent mobility to get back into the fight. The 10 rasps can sit on objectives and the 20 man unit is a flexible anvil, especially if backed by the GoS. The Torment is all around good for both healing and also greatly increasing the output of the bladegheists. With his 2" range you might also be able to do some cheeky placements in combat to relatively safely poker over the gheists.

Alternatively you could skip the 1 CP and trade the GoS for Reikenor, Remember he can deal auto wounds to fuel his spells to the enemy as well, so if he is in range it is 1+2d3 mortal wounds for sure if the enemy unit has 2 wounds or less per model, that can really hurt in a 1k game! He is also super mobile and can dish out some combat damage too, making him very flexible.

For spells I simply recommend the -1 to saves spell, that is easy to cast and often useful.

[Bayul]

6 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

For 1k I like something like this:

*snip*

That's almost the same 1000 points list I have currently, but with a Necromancer for Deathly Invocation instead of the GoS.

[lare2]

Looking at lists, do people generally just play LoG as NH? No one include much LoN?

[alghero81]

Apologies but why Legion of Grief wouldn't be able to use the Nighthaunt battalions? There's no mention on the rules that battalions are part of allegiance abilities, only about army organization. The app Azyr allows to do it too.

I'm personally thinking about the Shroudguard. Not that you can get to one drop just with it, but includes really useful units I would be using anyway. With the extra command point I can use Crypf Flayers as mercenaries without losing my first CP.

Any thoughts?

[alghero81]

4 hours ago, lare2 said:

Looking at lists, do people generally just play LoG as NH? No one include much LoN?

I personally use a core of Nighthaunt but when I'm not trying to play with bravery I have a core of Nighthaunt for harrassing and fighting in enemy territory, and a much slower back to keep the closest objectives with grave guard supported by a wight king and/or skeletons. Necromancers are also really useful and I saw many Mortis Engine that are not Nighthaunt.

[Bayul]

14 hours ago, alghero81 said:

Apologies but why Legion of Grief wouldn't be able to use the Nighthaunt battalions? There's no mention on the rules that battalions are part of allegiance abilities, only about army organization. The app Azyr allows to do it too.

Based on which rules / FAQ / Erratum / GHB specifically?

The Warscroll Builder on https://www.warhammer-community.com/ does not let me choose a battalion.

[lare2]

18 hours ago, alghero81 said:

I personally use a core of Nighthaunt but when I'm not trying to play with bravery I have a core of Nighthaunt for harrassing and fighting in enemy territory, and a much slower back to keep the closest objectives with grave guard supported by a wight king and/or skeletons. Necromancers are also really useful and I saw many Mortis Engine that are not Nighthaunt.

Thanks for the reply. I'm really trying to diversify my play style and reckon I should try out a bit of LoG. Completely forgot you can run a Mortis Engine in it. The way I see it, I was thinking just NH but with a necro or 2. Pointless saying it but... wish LoG could take vamps!

[alghero81]

3 hours ago, Bayul said:

Based on which rules / FAQ / Erratum / GHB specifically?

The Warscroll Builder on https://www.warhammer-community.com/ does not let me choose a battalion.

I'm basing my assumption from this Q&A from the Designer's Commentary on Core Rules:

Quote

Q: The rules say that a warscroll battalion can include allies and that they don’t count against the number of allies in the army. Does this rule only apply to battalions that share the same allegiance as the army, but that have units from two different factions (a battalion in a Daughters of Khaine army that has Daughters of Khaine and Stormcast Eternals units, for example)?

A: Yes. The faction a warscroll battalion belongs to is shown on its warscroll, above the title of the battalion. In addition, the battalion is assumed to belong to the Grand Alliance that its faction is a part of. Warscroll battalions that share the same allegiance as an army can always be taken as part of the army, and if they include any allied units, these units do not count against the limits on the number of allies the army can have (or against the points limit that can be spent on allies in a Pitched Battle). An army can include a warscroll battalion of a different allegiance to the rest of the army, but if it does so the units in it do count against the limits on the number of allies the army can have (and the points for the battalion and the units in it count against the points limit that can be spent on allies in a Pitched Battle).

And here is from page 15 of the Core Rules where it never specifies warscroll battalions belong to the allegiance:

Quote

If you wish, you can organise the units in your army into a special type of formation by using a warscroll battalion. Doing so will give you access to additional abilities that can be used by the units in the battalion. The following rules apply to a warscroll battalion, in addition to the rules that apply to a warscroll. 1 BATTALION ORGANISATION A warscroll battalion is made up of two or more units. You must decide which warscroll battalions you want to use and which units are in each one when you pick your army. Reinforcements cannot be part of a warscroll battalion. The organisation section of a battalion lists the titles or keywords for the units it can or must include. If an entry is the title of a unit, any unit with that title can be used (you can ignore sub-headers under the title unless they are included in the entry for the unit). Understrength units (pg 13) cannot be used as part of a warscroll battalion.

Regarding the warscroll builder, it's not as smart as Azyr and does not have any validation, but you can set a battalion, because the battalions are not from Legion of Grief, they are from Nighthaunt, so you change Units above and select the battalion: 

 

Azyr is a bit better as an app as it has a better validation and you don't need to change the faction when you want to enter allies and all Nighthaunt battalions are available. Note that the Legions battalions are not available because they use KEYWORDs that are not allowed in the LoG and LoG is not a Legion.

Here is a partial screenshot from Azyr (not that is an official version that would approve my theory, but I was curious to understand what the others think):