Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
HERO

AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Snakeb1te said:

I love the idea of finally having a way to make Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights do 'some' damage, due to the allegiance ability allowing for 6s to multi-hit.

So I've played Chaos Knights in a HoS army a few times and even with the exploding 6s they're not generating any real damage. 10 Chaos Knights (with ensorcelled weapons) do 22 wounds before saves including horse attacks. I haven't done the math on lances but I don't suspect it looks much better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do think gw overpriced daemon. I get that there books makes them better but there are armies that have a book and are under price. That some things are being valued at a higher price that may not be justified.

Example based on rulea on warscroll

Skeletons and daemonettes vs 4+ save.

40 skeleton With spear 280

30 get in 7.4 wound

With hero nearby for +1 to hit 11.25

40 skeleton With sword

20 get in 7.5

With hero nearby 9.9

30 daemonettes

20 get in 6.6

30 get in 9.9

The big diffence is daemoneetes are way faster then skeletons. skeletons got to keep a horde bonus and get a hit bonus if a hero is nearby. This is not taking in consideration there battletome abilities just the warscrolls. I get that in an abjective game mobility is important. If you can't shift or outnumber the opponenet at the end of combat you won't get to keep the objectives. Some of the point value they put on units are a bit odd. Different abilities bring different value for sure but some things are over valued. It does seem abilities and artifacts within the battletome is pushing up unit cost as well though not at same rate.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

30 Bestigors with 25 in combat (not hard against a unit like GGRs) will do 24 wounds after saves, if you're limiting yourself to just Hedonites then 30 Daemonettes in Epicureans does 17 wounds. Those numbers also become staggering against a unit like Plague Monks.

We have the tools to handle hordes, well, especially given our speed. The key is balancing those units that handle hordes against our desire to load up on characters. I'd personally rather spend the 300 points on Bestigors than 360 on an 2nd keeper every time just because it means you aren't leaving a glaring weakness in your play to armies like DoK, Skaven, and GGR LoN. 

Yup, we aren't helpless against them, but are counters aren't hard (if the Monks or Grimeghasts get to fight first, bye bye bestigors/demonettes) and you've got to make sacrifices in other selections to make room for those counters (as you mentioned). Makes for a well balanced armybook in my mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Magnus The Blue said:

...(if the Monks or Grimeghasts get to fight first, bye bye bestigors/demonettes)...

This should basically never happen though. This isn't relevant to the main point of a balanced book but from a tactical stand point we should both out drop and out speed both Skaven and LoN with GGRs. If you aren't consistently controlling the pace of combats with HoS you're probably losing already - its honestly the greatest 'soft' (i.e. not a specific set of rules) strength of the book. I've had a chance now to get about 15 games under my belt with the new book and the thing that consistently wins me games is our ability to set the pace of the game and control the board by movement. Its one of the reasons I'm strongly considering going back to a 3 drop build, just to ensure that outside BoC and Sylvaneth (at current) I should be in control of who takes the first turn. 

But yes its about balancing, its about not going all in on 3 Keepers because they keep you from accessing the other tools you need. Its also about understanding our summoning is very strong but having a concrete plan for it. The thing I see most often with HoS lists is this plan to just rack up tons of DP but no actual plan on how to spend it in an attempt to win the game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Poryague said:

It does seem abilities and artifacts within the battletome is pushing up unit cost as well though not at same rate.

I don't have the source but at some point GW stated they pointed based on allegiance abilities. That said I think that's entirely false and I use BoC as proof - if allegiance abilities matter then surely Tzaangors (and all their derivatives) would be priced differently in BoC vs. DoT. But given that they're not I think its clear GW doesn't actually factor in allegiance abilities. All that said I'm interested to see what happens in GHB 2019. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

I don't have the source but at some point GW stated they pointed based on allegiance abilities. That said I think that's entirely false and I use BoC as proof - if allegiance abilities matter then surely Tzaangors (and all their derivatives) would be priced differently in BoC vs. DoT. But given that they're not I think its clear GW doesn't actually factor in allegiance abilities. All that said I'm interested to see what happens in GHB 2019. 

Another backing this is the terrorghiest ghoul king. Some one did terrorghiest vs frostlord on stone horne and the terroghiest got destroyed. Even when the terrorghiest attacked first it still lost the majority of battles. There is only 40pt (terroeghiest is cheaper) difference here but terroghiest with all its abilities from the book is different story it swings wildy the other way. DoK is another one the level of synergy is so high within the book. You dont only make one of the most killy battlines but one of the toughest thanks to haganar. There are multiple units under priced as well as they did not get hit with the wholly withinrulei . bloodshrines being one of the main culprits. Hopefully ghb 2019 starts following that philosophy and points on units go up to more accurately reflect that.

Edited by Poryague

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SwampHeart said:

I don't have the source but at some point GW stated they pointed based on allegiance abilities. That said I think that's entirely false and I use BoC as proof - if allegiance abilities matter then surely Tzaangors (and all their derivatives) would be priced differently in BoC vs. DoT. But given that they're not I think its clear GW doesn't actually factor in allegiance abilities. All that said I'm interested to see what happens in GHB 2019. 

Either that or they decided that the alleigance abilities, spells, artifacts, and support available to the BoC and DoT were close enough that any discrepencies didn't warrant having to wade into the extremely confusing territory of having different prices on the same unit (and different warscrolls to keep the keywords separate). I'm sure GW considers a number of things when assigning points, including allegiance abilities. Of course they don't usually do an amazing job of it... but it must factor in to at least some degree.

Back to slaanesh though, does anyone have any thoughts on the new endless spells? I could see the bridge being useful to get a summoning hero into just the right spot, and the gheist might make some sense for the slaanesh spell list. Maybe even the boat to give a unit of daemonettes an absolutely ludicrous threat range?

Edited by Grimrock

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Back to slaanesh though, does anyone have any thoughts on the new endless spells? I could see the bridge being useful to get a summoning hero into just the right spot, and the gheist might make some sense for the slaanesh spell list. Maybe even the boat to give a unit of daemonettes an absolutely ludicrous threat range?

I think the issue with movement is that we can often get to within 9" anyway without any special spells. Our daemonettes (or any slaves to darkness) are really only the ones who would benefit from them, and the teleportation requires you to be very close iirc.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with @Enoby - I don't really find a need to increase my speed most of the time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I think the issue with movement is that we can often get to within 9" anyway without any special spells. Our daemonettes (or any slaves to darkness) are really only the ones who would benefit from them, and the teleportation requires you to be very close iirc.

For range, the bridge is wholly within 6" which is pretty easy to pull off. Even the boat being wholly within 3" should fit a unit of 30 daemonettes easily enough as long as you deploy them for it. You'd definitely have to plan for it, but not terribly difficult.

For movement, I think the bridge can move a unit something like 28" (assuming the bridge model is 4" long, which looks about right, you start at the 6" line, then 4" for the model, then 12" to the edge of the next bridge, then another 6" away from that). The boat just adds a flat 12" to movement. Obviously not needed to get in combat if we're deploying 18" away from the enemy lines, but I'm thinking of a situation where you need to shift laterally to an objective or to get around a screening unit. Considering the army is usually light on bodies it might be useful. Might help the exalted chariot too, they're a touch slow for a turn 1 charge in the 24" scenarios.

Edited by Grimrock

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm tempted to try some Bravery shenanigas with our spells that rely on Bravery, and maybe try locking down their general to prevent the usage of CP for battleshock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm actually really tempted to try a seeker heavy list; they're almost guaranteed a first turn charge if you roll even average for them (and the 6" pile in battalion helps a tonne) and they have really good damage for only slightly more expensive than daemonettes. I just wish they were battleline! Was even thinking of running 25 of them (2 units of 10, 1 of 5) and just slamming into the enemy first turn, holding everything back until my keeper arrives. The 6" pile in means the locus is less important as we choose when we activate. 

Anyone properly tried them? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the horrorghast with bravery bombs with soulshard slice. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The movement boosters are interesting because they can protect a fast moving unit for a turn, they basically buy one or two turns worth of movement without danger. Good against a ranged army to close the distance; but for an army which has native fast movement they might not be as helpful.

The shards I think would be great fun to play with, whilst the horroghast is a combo spell - the kind of thing you want to combine iwth other elements to create a moral shattering zone to build one atop the other. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Malign sorcery page 53 under endless spell models paragraph 2

"Unless noted otherwise, an endless spell model cannot be attacked or affected by spells or abilities; it is treated as a friendly model by all armies for any other rules purposes."

Malign sorcery designer notes.

"Q: Do things that increase the range of a caster’s spells also apply to the distance at which an endless spell can be set up from the caster? 

A: No. Things that increase the range of a spell’s effects do not apply to the distance at which an endless spell 
can be set up. By the same token, things that allow you to measure the range of a spell from a different 
location to the caster cannot be used when setting up an endless spell.

Q: If a Wizard has an ability that increases the number of mortal wounds inflicted by the spells they cast, does this ability also apply to the abilities of any endless spells that the 
wizard casts?
A: No."

These dont work because "cannot be attacked or affected by spells or abilities" our depravity system does not affect the spell at all. It does not add or change any parameters of the spell. Yes endless spells are spells.

From designer commentary

"Q: Do abilities that provide protection against the effects of spells, or wounds inflicted by spells, also provide protection against the effects or wounds inflicted by an endless spell?
A: Yes."

An item that falls in this catagory is ulgu item spell mirror. On 5+ you ingore the spell. It say nothing about endless spells. Why does it work because endless spells are spells for all other rule purposes. It is still possible gw goes the opposite way but raw our allegience ability has no affect on endless spells so they would generate depravity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the issue is that GW hasn't made all the language for spells unique between Endless and regular spells so on the one hand we've got statments that regular spell boosters don't work on endless spells; but at the same time protections from regular spells also protect from endless spells. 

 

So its hard to actually work some things out regarding them. It's something I seriously hope GW addresses with AoS 3.0. Sure it might mean a few more words on some abiltiies to specify that they affect Spells and Endless Spells; but at least it would clear the air formally and make it easier for players to work out what is what with the two kinds of spell. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Overread said:

I think the issue is that GW hasn't made all the language for spells unique between Endless and regular spells so on the one hand we've got statments that regular spell boosters don't work on endless spells; but at the same time protections from regular spells also protect from endless spells. 

 

So its hard to actually work some things out regarding them. It's something I seriously hope GW addresses with AoS 3.0. Sure it might mean a few more words on some abiltiies to specify that they affect Spells and Endless Spells; but at least it would clear the air formally and make it easier for players to work out what is what with the two kinds of spell. 

Yeah They could easily do the whole wound mortal wound thing. We're for a while our summon ability  got faq not to work with mortal wounds contridicting core rules. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed, language clearing up is important. The enrapturess issue is a problem that could've been easily cleared up with "In the hero phase, this model generates 1 depravity point" which allows it to stack with multiple enrapturess and not creating an issue where people obfuscate it to allowing X squared depravity where x is the number of depravity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They could creat more issues on accident what happens to modifiers to cast and rerolls to cast. I could see that geeting messed up if they deliniate the spells and endless spells to much. I think if they dont want endless spells to get depravity they will just say that. It is an easier fix that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, carnith said:

I like the horrorghast with bravery bombs with soulshard slice. 

Mix with a brayshaman using direflock for even more bravery bomb.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are there any interesting combos we've been finding have potential? I haven't had the opportunity to test them yet, but I feel like a lot of the realm weapons that have an effect on a 6 to hit would synergize well with Euphoric Killers. I was eyeing an alpha strike with the Carving Blade and Into the Fray on a Godseekers Lord of Chaos for 4d6 auto-hitting auto-wounding damage with the reaper blade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sword of judgement on the epitome is good. She’s fast. Hits on 3’s and can get rerolls easily to fight the turn after she takes the fanes offer. Sure we don’t get a depravity for her damage on a 2+ but she can go to town. Also she can attack give with a keeper. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, carnith said:

Sword of judgement on the epitome is good. She’s fast. Hits on 3’s and can get rerolls easily to fight the turn after she takes the fanes offer. Sure we don’t get a depravity for her damage on a 2+ but she can go to town. Also she can attack give with a keeper. 

I think the sheer output of damage on what will always be multi-wound targets far outweighs the possibility of losing a point of depravity from damage prevention. That's awesome, and our best source of a reliably high volume of attacks on a single weapon that isn't a mount. 

Edited by CeleFAZE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

Are there any interesting combos we've been finding have potential? I haven't had the opportunity to test them yet, but I feel like a lot of the realm weapons that have an effect on a 6 to hit would synergize well with Euphoric Killers. I was eyeing an alpha strike with the Carving Blade and Into the Fray on a Godseekers Lord of Chaos for 4d6 auto-hitting auto-wounding damage with the reaper blade.

That won't work. You still have to roll one wound roll as each effect is only triggered once as of the Core Rules Designers' Commentary:
 

Quote

 

Q: Sometimes a dice roll will trigger an effect. For example, a weapon might have a rule that says a hit roll of 6 causes two hits on the target instead of 1. What happens if another effect applies to the same roll? For example, the weapon from the previous example might have a rule that says it inflicts D6 mortal wounds on a hit roll of 6 and the attack sequence ends – would I get to inflict two hits that each inflicted D6 mortal wounds?

A: When a dice roll triggers more than one effect, each effect is triggered once. For this example, this means that the hit roll would cause two hits, but only one of the hits would inflict D6 mortal wounds (you would carry out the rest of the attack procedure for the other hit normally)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...