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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

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I don t buy the pamphlet explanation gw gave in 2019 but that is my opinion. What it gives them is the ability to print the points after the ghb  is sent to print but it looks like they forget deadlines and let it go to print with preliminary points changes that are now irrelevant or non sense.The Soulfeaster going up 10 point had me floored. What were they thinking?

I am excited for the hero building from the ghb. I have no idea if my local community will allow it in our tournaments but we ll see

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If those point leaks are real I'll be very sad... Someone told me there are no new battalions on this GHB. I was really hoping for a fiends battalion and a bigger point reduction.

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15 hours ago, Yoid said:

Talking about other things, as i expected the anvil of apotheosis heavily favour slaanesh, 

Is that from Wrath of the Everchosen or the GHB 2020?  I not familiar with the name.

8 hours ago, azdimy said:

I am excited for the hero building from the ghb. I have no idea if my local community will allow it in our tournaments but we ll see

Me too.  You could always play friendly games :)

6 hours ago, Goorie said:

I was really hoping for a fiends battalion and a bigger point reduction.

I would love for Shalaxi to allow Fiends as BL or some benefit to match the lore.   At least give us a reason to take some Fiends.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Is that from Wrath of the Everchosen or the GHB 2020?  I not familiar with the name.

Me too.  You could always play friendly games :)

I would love for Shalaxi to allow Fiends as BL or some benefit to match the lore.   At least give us a reason to take some Fiends.

Anvil of Apotheosis is the name of the hero creator in the General's Handbook 2020, it include points and the sugestion to give it a try in tournaments for tournament organizers, plus i remember some tournaments already using a custom "Create your own general" rules some time ago, i remember the youtube videos talking about that tournament. Since all HoS heroes are overcosted due to Depravity Points, but there is no such overcost in the Anvil, it heavily favour slaanesh and allow us to fix some of the disadvantages of our regular heroes. I was preparing my own version of hinterlands when this was anounced, using the Anvil is extremely good as a level up system, i feel like it is the future of path to glory too, would be cool if the path to glory section of the battletomes is changed to a path to apotheosis section with specific rules to create and upgrade your army heroes and troops and this start a new age of path to glory games.

About the Fiends, i tought about some battalions too as a way to fix the "Slaanesh can only be played for Depravity" problem. would like some battalions that includes only troops and give some powerful powerups to them so people start considering playing heavy troops armies with few heroes, while still allowing to take the heavy heroes but weak troops aproach. Like, a battalion that includes all the troops in the battletome but the heroes and heavily increase the offensive or defensive capability of the army. Battallions is the perfect way to fix this problem because you cannot summon troops with the bonuses they give, so you got to strictly choose between summoning focus or battalion focus and cannot heavily lean to both at the same time.

Like, let's say, the offensive battalion give all the troops +1 attack, or -1 rend, or improve the exploding 6 to exploding 5+, that would be really flavourful to slaanesh main themes, we have lost the "Queens of rend" theme to other armies, we got no troops with -2 rend in the army, only the Keeper of Secrets and Daemon Prince got that. Well i guess Infernal Enrapturess have -3 rend but she deal 1 wound per shooting turn on average for a total of 5 wounds at the end of the game... yikes that is not worth 140 points, even when she is worth for the antimagic, she cannot fulfill the rend theme. Also Knights charging with lances got -2 rend... meh, rend used to be the theme of Daemons of Slaanesh back when the battlelines don't used to have rend, now is rare that one battleline dosn't have plain better stats than Daemonettes and rend too, they are simply overcosted due to Depravity and the Keeper of Secrets being actually strong. Would be really cool if the fiends had -2 rend so they could fulfill the role of heavy infantry/monsters made to shred tanks that the regular troops can only scratch, but they got a sad -1 rend in the massive claws and stingers wich make little sense.

Then a defensive battalion, giving +1 save may be what the army need to finally have an anvil, imagine hellstriders saving at 3+, daemonettes at 4+, Fiends at 4+ with the -1 to hit would still be harder to play as anvil because they are extremely overcosted for their wound characteristic, but would still work way better than now. Anyway +1 save may be not so flavourful to our troops, although i can see this battalion as being so masochistic that their bodies endure great pain and wounds that would otherwise kill them, while the other the offensive battalion is the one of the sadistics that enjoy the pain of their enemies to the point of being way more lethal and merciless with them. Anyway, some more flavourful effect and not so generic as giving +1 to save may be to give a 6+ ward save and in addition every time you negate a wound or mortal wound this way the unit does a MW to an enemy nearby while frenzied from the masochistic joy, i just don't like the 6+ ward saves so much because they are too swingy, but it may be a more flavourful way to do an slaanesh defensive battalion.

Other effects for battalions that may be interesting. A Daemonette/Seekers battalion that increase the chance of the icon summoning back models to a 5+ or a 4+, or even simply a battalion that allow you to recover slain models every turn in a similar way. An exclusively Fiend battalion that give +1 to save or +1 wound per model or -1 rend to their weapons, just any way to actually make them worth their points, maybe a battalion that allow you to regenerate all wounds allocated to a Fiend model in the unit at the end of the combat phase, and if there is no fiend wounded you can summon an slain fiend model instead.

So many ways to make the troops interesting and useful. Would you pay from 100 to 200 points for such an upgrade to the troop roster of the army? And then since battalions cannot be summon with Depravity, this move away from the heavy hero meta problem. (There is nothingb bad with that style of play, im just saying not being able to play any other thing to the same degree of success is a problem in list building variety)

Edited by Yoid
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13 hours ago, Yoid said:

Anvil of Apotheosis is the name of the hero creator in the General's Handbook 2020, ... i feel like it is the future of path to glory too,

...
 would like some battalions that includes only troops and give some powerful powerups to them so people start considering playing heavy troops armies with few heroes, 

Great post!

Thanks for the Anvil explanation.  I was vaguely aware of it.  I actually just asked the local guy in my town if he would try Crusade and he mentioned being interested in PtG.  I used to play PtG  (super imbalanced) so I got tired of it but this sounds like a fresh start.

What I find about the current  battalion is 190 points for the DAemonette one when I only own 60 means I'm not getting those MWs that much, unless I use my Exalted and 2 Hellflayers for MW spamming as well.  Which trades them being used as Heroes.  Is 90 points a unit after loosing the Horde discount even worth it?  Maybe single chariots is an avenue.  The problem is the Benefit of the Keeper Cmd Ability is too good to ignore.  But then she'll be shot off very fast in modern meta.

Anther reason for -2 rend is Lumineth ignore -1?  So paying for no rend Daemonettes.  Maybe GW hates Slaanesh and Sylvaneth now.  They had their hey-day.  You sure notice the difference between BoC getting stackable rend and Slaanesh having no bonus option really.

What if Fiends generated Depravity to a smaller hero nearby?  The Hero languished in the depravity of the Fiends.  

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The ignoring rend is only on the Alarith. What will hurt is when our units get into fighting those spears and if they are in shining company. -1 hit on our daemonettes will not make them a threat. 

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10 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Great post!

Thanks for the Anvil explanation.  I was vaguely aware of it.  I actually just asked the local guy in my town if he would try Crusade and he mentioned being interested in PtG.  I used to play PtG  (super imbalanced) so I got tired of it but this sounds like a fresh start.

What I find about the current  battalion is 190 points for the DAemonette one when I only own 60 means I'm not getting those MWs that much, unless I use my Exalted and 2 Hellflayers for MW spamming as well.  Which trades them being used as Heroes.  Is 90 points a unit after loosing the Horde discount even worth it?  Maybe single chariots is an avenue.  The problem is the Benefit of the Keeper Cmd Ability is too good to ignore.  But then she'll be shot off very fast in modern meta.

Anther reason for -2 rend is Lumineth ignore -1?  So paying for no rend Daemonettes.  Maybe GW hates Slaanesh and Sylvaneth now.  They had their hey-day.  You sure notice the difference between BoC getting stackable rend and Slaanesh having no bonus option really.

What if Fiends generated Depravity to a smaller hero nearby?  The Hero languished in the depravity of the Fiends.  

Yeah, i feel like you need at least 90 daemonettes to make the battalion worth it, and im not sure about that now that is even more costly to do so. Why pay so much fot the battalion when you can simply deploy another unit? A regular exalted chariot is gonna do the same job at the same price and even add some more wounds and tankines to the army, i guess you do it for the artifact and CP, but then that lead you to a hero meta again, and running triple keeper is plain better than working your way aroung 90 daemonettes and epicurean. The battalion don't affect Fiends whathsoever, and the mortal wound is instead of your regular damage and not in addition, so is basically increasing the rend of that specific wound to infinite, not increasing the damage output of the unit by much. Regular 30 daemonettes have an average damage output of 16.9 against 4+ save, epicurean revellers 30 daemonettes have an average damage output of 19.8 against 4+ save. So you are increasing the damage output by 2.9 wounds per unit, 8.7 between three units. Meanwhile an exalted chariot have an average damage output of 7.5  aganst 4+ save when not charging and 9.6 against 4+ save when charging, and it  also deal such damage in an hybrid form of regular attacks and mortal wounds.

Regular exalted chariot is deceptively good for the point cost, is what the fiends of slaanesh were supposed to be, but accurately costed for the damage output and survability. yes is not tanky for the cost, but 9 wounds with no damage profile make it hit at full strength until destroyed, wich cannot be told about the fiends, the damage output of the chariot charging is the same one of the fiends when attacking 4+ wound enemies, while the damage output of the chariot while not charging is just 0.5 wounds below the fiends when hitting a 2-3 wound target and 0.6 above the fiends hitting 1 wound targets, the chariot got 4+ save while the fiends got 3 extra wounds and -1 to be hit in mele and 5+ save while loosing 33% of their damage output every 4 wounds.

Exalted chariots are the only accurately costed unit in the army in my opinion, everything else is overcosted except for the keepers who are probably undercosted or maybe actually fine after the nerf.

Got my eye on chaos chosen currently, 140 points 10 wounds 4+ save and an impresive damage output of 8.5 against 4+ save with hybrid regular damage and mortal wounds. Now that is what i wanted the fiends to be. They are slow compared to the rest of our army, but not that slow compared with regular troops in other armies, and their point cost for that output is insane compared with anything, 10 Daemonettes cost 110 and have a damage output of 4.6 against 4+ save, this guys hit almost double hard and survive even more just for 30 more points, you are sacrificing run and charge in the process. Yep they are not battleline but still is an extremely good unit like the regular exalted charior.

About the fiends generating depravity, i already tought of it in the past, just a simple rule like the infernal enrapturess, for each fiend model in the battlefield you generate 1 DP point in your hero phase, may be nice, but then what happen is that they will become staple in the keeper spams list, they will not really unlock a new type of list if simply start generating depravity. I would prefer having the -1/-1 always instead of when they are 4+ models, or being fairly costed at 160 (170ish) points, or a complete warscroll rework, whathever. Imagine the -1 to hit affecting your other units too, like daemonettes figthing alongside fiends are -1 to hit, or their weapons having -2 rend, or their wounds being 5-6 per model, or their save being 4+ or they exploding 6 always counting as having 20+ models so they explode into 3 hits. They may be so awesome, they simply aren't.

The guy who designed the battletome was clearly not a fan of stacking buffs, the old slaanesh warscrolls where all about stacking locust to buff the army, hellstriders having a protection bubble of -1 to hit, i miss those tactical concepts, while now the only buff you can do is rerolling 1s in a million different ways and that's it. Well, i guess we may count excess of violence, but that forces you to play regular keepers all the way. Would be awesome if the old protection bubble of the hellstriders were now on the Fiends, and instead of exploding 6 into three hits when 20+ models having it as a sort of bubble for the heralds so you got to make them fight alongside the daemonettes (or having they explode in 5 and 6 instead) i really love buffs based on tactical formations.

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Posted (edited)

Just wanted to pop in and confirm those Slaanesh points changes discussed earlier are indeed accurate. The increases aren't significant on their own, but given they target almost everything you would want to take in a competitive list (Keepers, Epitome, Hellstriders or Daemonette hordes, and our two most popular battalions) the increases all really stack up. The drop to Fiends is inconsequential and I doubt will really change our list building; the more interesting prospect is potential Slaves to Darkness points drops. I've been eyeing the Chaos Lord on Karkadrak and Sorcerer Lord on Manticore for a while now, and Chosen are definitely the way I'd expand the army if I wanted hard-hitters outside of our Leader slots (as I don't want to invest heavily into Beasts of Chaos to run Bestigors or Dragon Ogors.)

Definitely feeling more of a mortal spin is in the cards, especially after they took away the Malign Sorcery artefacts that were just so darned handy for our Keepers (I still plan on running two of them - they're just way too good even with the increase.) I'm bummed about the Syll'Esskan Host in particular, they can only ever have one artefact now regardless of how many battalions you take. Still, gotta look for the positives - I won't have to carry as many models around at least 😅

Edited by Jaskier
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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

Just wanted to pop in and confirm those Slaanesh points changes discussed earlier are indeed accurate. The increases aren't significant on their own, but given they target almost everything you would want to take in a competitive list (Keepers, Epitome, Hellstriders or Daemonette hordes, and our two most popular battalions) the increases all really stack up. The drop to Fiends is inconsequential and I doubt will really change our list building; the more interesting prospect is potential Slaves to Darkness points drops. I've been eyeing the Chaos Lord on Karkadrak and Sorcerer Lord on Manticore for a while now, and Chosen are definitely the way I'd expand the army if I wanted hard-hitters outside of our Leader slots (as I don't want to invest heavily into Beasts of Chaos to run Bestigors or Dragon Ogors.) Definitely feeling more of a mortal spin is in the cards, especially after they took away the Malign Sorcery artefacts that were just so darned handy for our Keepers (I still plan on running two of them - they're just way too good even with the increase.) 

Starting with mortals and then summoning the daemons and keepers seems viable, almost everything in HoS were nerfed and almost everything in StD were buff. I also read something about StD being a counter of the MW spam meta armies due to the chaos shields that save MW on 5+, so they may be somewhat good vs Tzeench and Lumineth. Im just disappointed about having to play other armies models to make our army worth, having some dedicated mortals for slaanesh like the other gods would help with that feeling.

Edited by Yoid

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Question, is the sylleskkan host from the WD still a legal list for tournament play after the coming of the GHB 2020 or not? 

If not my army got even more useless then it already was 🤣

I mean, Why does GW bring out these lists in WD if they can't be used after a while anyway? 

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Unless they make it legal in a ghb errata, it s no longer match play legal as the warscroll battallions aren t in the pitched battle profile 2020

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On 7/11/2020 at 2:14 AM, Yoid said:

Yeah, i feel like you need at least 90 daemonettes to make the battalion worth it, and im not sure about that now that is even more costly to do so. Why pay so much fot the battalion when you can simply deploy another unit? 

Exalted chariots are the only accurately costed unit in the army in my opinion, everything else is overcosted except for the keepers who are probably undercosted or maybe actually fine after the nerf.

The guy who designed the battletome was clearly not a fan of stacking buffs, the old slaanesh warscrolls where all about stacking locust to buff the army, 

I don't own 3 Keepers :S  My last Keeper I bought when I was a pip squeak in 1987.   I have 3 Ghorgons though and locally I can proxy them.  

Dan Bradshaw (maybe him?) argued the idea of Battalions being poor value and deploying against your opponent is more important than 1/2-drops.  He also said Endless Spells are the best value per game.  Given he was once the UK Grand Master I feel that's valid enough to look at my own playstyle to work on.  Emerald Lifeswarm is still a good spell.  

I would also like to consider  using units in the book even though it goes against the idea of the book.  which.. is depressing the book was so one-dimentional it doesn't support generic builds. 

I have been thinking about Depraved Drove.  Great Bray-Shaman, 3 Doombulls, 3 x 10 Ungors.  If I drop the Daemonette Battalion then I have lots of room to work with.  Thinking about a Contorted Epitome and Masque.  If the Doombulls can get rr 1s, it means i'll roll all three attacks as 2s and miss every time 😉  They aren't bad depravity for 100 points each and I have 3 really nicely painted up.  I also can load up the battalion (I have a HUGE BoC army) but I would prefer to add some actual Slaanesh stuff.  I've tried Centigors and they are okay but better in Nurgle.  I also thought about 20 Seekers but they need the Keeper for that attack twice.

No kidding it lacks synergy for units.  It has long failed in the Daemonettes being viable as a 30-block since you can't do much more than rr 1s.  I think I can scrape together 70 (I have Juan Diaz models only) but still.  

On 7/11/2020 at 12:49 PM, azdimy said:

Unless they make it legal in a ghb errata, it s no longer match play legal as the warscroll battallions aren t in the pitched battle profile 2020

That's an interesting comment.  It sure was a D* move that helped ruin people's taste of slaanesh when they were king.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/11/2020 at 12:49 PM, azdimy said:

Unless they make it legal in a ghb errata, it s no longer match play legal as the warscroll battallions aren t in the pitched battle profile 2020

Rob Symes mentioned on the Honest Wargamer that the rule for a Battalion requiring to be in the GHB was a GHB2019 rule and not in the GHB2020 book (I don't have it, I can't look this up). 

I guess it leaves it to a FAQ, TO or the friendly conversation.  I don't really know as I'm no longer part of the tournament scene.  

 

I was also looking, the Daemonette Battalion is now only 30 points more than the other two.   (or 40?)  If only it had a points drop.  for 30,30,10 Daemonettes, 2 Hellflayers and an Exalted, that picks up a lot of extra MWs.  I'm still wanting to give it a go.  Oh,.. lockdown,..

Edited by Popisdead
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18 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Rob Symes mentioned on the Honest Wargamer that the rule for a Battalion requiring to be in the GHB was a GHB2019 rule and not in the GHB2020 book (I don't have it, I can't look this up). 

I guess it leaves it to a FAQ, TO or the friendly conversation.  I don't really know as I'm no longer part of the tournament scene.  

 

I was also looking, the Daemonette Battalion is now only 30 points more than the other two.   (or 40?)  If only it had a points drop.  for 30,30,10 Daemonettes, 2 Hellflayers and an Exalted, that picks up a lot of extra MWs.  I'm still wanting to give it a go.  Oh,.. lockdown,..

That s in the 2020 pitch battle profile.

 

20200715_080520.jpg

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3 hours ago, azdimy said:

That s in the 2020 pitch battle profile.

 

20200715_080520.jpg

This is talking about units.  Am I mistaken that we are talking about the Sylle Eske battalions?  Is there a rule that says a Battalion is a unit?  Asking for clarity, not being sarcastic.  

 

So I've been mulling around alternate ways to explore Slaanesh (boy howdy,.. go to town on that line) and came up with something loose in a total vacuum.  This is first pass, no games yet.  Just finishing off converting the Hellflayers and painting the last 10 ish infantry girls.

Depraved Drove

3 x Doombulls 

GBS

3 x 10 Ungors

Daemonette Battalion

2 x 30 Daemonettes

2 x Hellflayers

Exalter chariot.  

I think it's 2000 points on the nose.

 

I think it's Invaders that has the +1 to hit banner.  One of my Doombulls used to be a Gorebull BSB so I wouldn't mind making use of that.  I have neglected use of command abilities since the Warherd one won't be that useful past maybe making the Doombulls hit and wound on 2s.

My idea is pushing MWs out there as obviously I won't have a great deal of 6s (lacking 40 ungors and 30 bestigors), and heroes, particularly the Keeper.  

I'm also not sure if Daemonettes need to be 30.  For objectives sure maybe but they'll die quick even if a local guy claims they are insanely powerful.  I think maybe 3 x 20 might be decent.  I don't believe they have the rule for any benefits in any size past min size for command.

Other things I'm thinking about are swapping Hellflayers to take the Epitome, Alluress (possibly more value in the super-caster meta) and Masque (always a good little hero).  I don't dislike the chariots in the book.  

I also have some excess Razorgor chariots I plan on converting to Seeker chariots.  Thinking about the usage of out-of-phase wounds the chariots can do.  I could get up to 5 Seeker chariots without proxying.  

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2 hours ago, Popisdead said:

This is talking about units.  Am I mistaken that we are talking about the Sylle Eske battalions?  Is there a rule that says a Battalion is a unit?  Asking for clarity, not being sarcastic

No sarcasm here. People with other factions are asking similar questions. 

I cannot tell you that battallions are units although they are made of units. But the chaos ascendent battlallions from the wrath of the everchosen are in the document and the white dwarf battallions  are not and for that, I believe the Sylleske host is no longer match play legal unless they errata that

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Posted (edited)

There's a big difference between rules content posted in a monthly magazine issue and rules content from a campaign book. There's also nothing in the GHB itself indicating that those battalions aren't matched play legal - they aren't from a book that's been replaced, nor is there any rule that dictates a battalion is a unit. As such, I'm firmly in the camp they are still matched play legal (but at TO discretion, like always) until GW officially declares otherwise.

 

To put it simply, the onus is on you to prove they aren't legal rather than the other way around, as there's no rule explicitly preventing their use. 

Edited by Jaskier

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11 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

There's a big difference between rules content posted in a monthly magazine issue and rules content from a campaign book. There's also nothing in the GHB itself indicating that those battalions aren't matched play legal - they aren't from a book that's been replaced, nor is there any rule that dictates a battalion is a unit. As such, I'm firmly in the camp they are still matched play legal (but at TO discretion, like always) until GW officially declares otherwise. 

The Big difference is they invalidate content from white dwarf within a year and campaign books have two years?(  See what happened to Malign sorcery)

 I ll reiterate, they are not match play legal because they are not listed. Simple as that

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, azdimy said:

The Big difference is they invalidate content from white dwarf within a year and campaign books have two years?(  See what happened to Malign sorcery)

 I ll reiterate, they are not match play legal because they are not listed. Simple as that

My point regarding White Dwarf /=/ campaign book is that I don't know of any White Dwarf rules content that has received updates/publication in a GHB or Chapter Approved, with the possible exception of the 40k Slaanesh daemon rules (as they still haven't released an updated Chaos Daemon codex.) There's examples of them being expanded on in future content (i.e. Crimson Fists rules being updated and expanded in the Imperial Fists supplement.) 

 

Prove that they're units then, or list a rule that clarifies battalions not printed in the book can't be used. If you can't, I'd say they are legal, simple as that 😛

Edited by Jaskier

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I´m thinking about testing doombulls spam. 100pts each one, 7dp, 8 wounds... 

 

For example something like this:

Keeper

4 Doombulls

Mirror character

3x10 Ungors

6 Bullgors

6 Fiends (to be played on the strong flank with the keeper).

 

Maybe it´s non-sense but...

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2 hours ago, El Antiguo Guardián said:

I´m thinking about testing doombulls spam. 100pts each one, 7dp, 8 wounds... 

 

For example something like this:

Keeper

4 Doombulls

Mirror character

3x10 Ungors

6 Bullgors

6 Fiends (to be played on the strong flank with the keeper).

 

Maybe it´s non-sense but...

I thought about something similar but I do not have any experience with Slaanesh.

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On 7/15/2020 at 12:16 PM, azdimy said:

The Big difference is they invalidate content from white dwarf within a year and campaign books have two years?(  See what happened to Malign sorcery)

 I ll reiterate, they are not match play legal because they are not listed. Simple as that

No it's not as simple as that.  It was tournament legal when it came out and it wasn't listed in a GHB.  I don't even recall GW making a declaration about it shortly after when questions about its validity came up and it featured prominently in tournaments.  

You are stating it isn't based on an assumption, not a ruling.  And it doesn't matter that Battalions have units.  

Malign sorcery was a rulebook not a White Dwarf.  It wasn't invalidated (we still have Endless Spells), they changed how they wanted to handle realm artifacts based on now having nearly all the range with books.  

Was there a definitive statement malign prophecy was removed 2 years after?  It wasn't played much and it was a release kerfuffle.

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On 7/16/2020 at 2:13 PM, Hannibal said:

I thought about something similar but I do not have any experience with Slaanesh.

I´m not sure about it. When I won my place for the ETC Spanish Team, I was using Slaanesh... but the good one.

Now I think we need to start testing strange things. Beast are... well, they´re haha. But the good units are not battlelines (and with the GH2020...).

I think that I will test that list in august for a battlereport for my Patreon (I will open it during the next week, I´m finishing with the sponsors etc...). 

 

Who knows. Maybe it´s the new OP Slaanesh list... haha But I think StD will be better. We need to wait until the PDFs changes.

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2 hours ago, El Antiguo Guardián said:

I´m not sure about it. When I won my place for the ETC Spanish Team, I was using Slaanesh... but the good one.

Now I think we need to start testing strange things. Beast are... well, they´re haha. But the good units are not battlelines (and with the GH2020...).

Who knows. Maybe it´s the new OP Slaanesh list... haha But I think StD will be better. We need to wait until the PDFs changes.

Well Bestigors and Ungors are good, and that's what you would want to cherry pick.   I think StD is the clear winner between those.

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On 7/17/2020 at 6:06 PM, Popisdead said:

Well Bestigors and Ungors are good, and that's what you would want to cherry pick.   I think StD is the clear winner between those.

Yep... unless the new points destroy them.

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