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HERO

AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

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24 minutes ago, NoLifeKing said:

I would like to hear about other peoples experiences or oppinions on the various chariots and their usefulness before i commit to purchasing and painting multiples of them

There were some details a few pages back about them.  Someone mathed out some details regarding damage output per point.  Hellflayers didn't come out great but Seekers (with heroes) weren't terrible, just not super high in wounds for Depravity.  I would recommend scrolling back and reading looking for the post.

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Seekers? Have a 240 gap in my army 1 or 10 or 2 of 5 for support and small unit hunting?

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So i was doing some really heavy point/efficiency mathhammer chart showing survival factor per point and damage output per point for all the slaanesh units, even when the chart will take some more time to finish, i just realized something that may be obvious for most people, and that make me feel like a moron for not noticing before, but this thing is too interesting and i got to share it with everyone right now.

Exploding 6s into two hits got the exact same mathematical value as having +1 to hit.
Exploding 6s into three hits got the exact same mathematical value as having +2 to hit.

Talking about averages:
For every 6 dices you roll at 4+ to hit you get 3 hits and 3 misses.
For every 6 dices you roll at 3+ to hit you get 4 hits and 2 misses.
For every 6 dices you roll at 4+ to hit with exploding sixes into two hits you get 4 hits and 3 misses.
For every 6 dices you roll at 2+ to hit you get 5 hits and 1 miss.
For every 6 dices you roll at 4+ to hit with exploding sixes into three hits you get 5 hits and 3 misses.

Yes, dices does not always score as their averages, and exploding 6s may feel more swingy specially when rolling few dices with MSU and heroes, but got the same mathematicall value while using big samples, so in fact our allegiance ability gives +1 to hit to everything we enlist, wich feels mindblowing to me.

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7 hours ago, Yoid said:

Yes, dices does not always score as their averages, and exploding 6s may feel more swingy specially when rolling few dices with MSU and heroes, but got the same mathematicall value while using big samples, so in fact our allegiance ability gives +1 to hit to everything we enlist, wich feels mindblowing to me.

I have heard this before, but would actually rate it a few % better than a +1 because of how they stack (ex. hitting on 2+ you can add 6s doing 2 hits for a little more awesomeness. It is also possible to do more hits than you have attacks, though unlikely) 

🙂

On another note, do we have any news on Hedonites of Slaanesh point changes in the GHB2020? 

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6 hours ago, Third said:

I have heard this before, but would actually rate it a few % better than a +1 because of how they stack (ex. hitting on 2+ you can add 6s doing 2 hits for a little more awesomeness. It is also possible to do more hits than you have attacks, though unlikely) 

🙂

On another note, do we have any news on Hedonites of Slaanesh point changes in the GHB2020? 

Yesterday i was looking for leaks on points, there are some captions for other factions, but not for slaanesh yet.

One interesting thing may be the anvil of apotheosis, the new character creator wich have rules for narrative, open and matched play. GW didn't pull the trigger on making it matched play official, but include point values and encourage tournament organizers to give it a try in competitive play. The way Hedonites of Slaanesh works is having everything overcosted to compensate for the allegiance abilities, specially summoning, so the anvil point system probably favour us by not having such tax in points, hero points of characters made with the anvil of apotheosis will probably land closer to how slaanesh was priced before the battletome. As far as i have seen with the leaks, there will be no way to give the hero the Hedonite keyword, so no locus, but he will have the Slaanesh keyword.

Creating a Daemon of Slaanesh Hero with 10 bravery, 5 wounds, 5 movement and 5+ save cost 50 points, we still got to see how much points cost the weapons and archetypes just to know how DP efficient is the smaller hero, and then check the skills and mounts, we may be able to build exalted chariots that are better costed. Even so i doubt that we can make a better Keeper of Secrets because it will end looking more like the soulfeaster, not bad, but unable to compete with the excess of violence command ability. Maybe we can make something like the soulfeaster way cheaper tho, and play it fairly costed at least.

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On 7/3/2020 at 7:54 PM, Yoid said:

Yes, dices does not always score as their averages, and exploding 6s may feel more swingy specially when rolling few dices with MSU and heroes, but got the same mathematicall value while using big samples, so in fact our allegiance ability gives +1 to hit to everything we enlist, wich feels mindblowing to me.

This is exactly the issue with Fantasy pre-8th ed.  You could pay a lot of points for an Elf who hit on 3s with 5-6 attacks and goblins who hit on 5s with 5-6 attacks but cost 3-5 times less.  Swingy dice pretty much made the goblins always better.  More dice amortize out issues with a rolling based system.

Another issue is people tend to argue average results on forums as fact over what statistics really explains which is the probably of an outcome.  You are X% likely to have this outcome, ignore the benefits of army synergy, MSU and other hidden factors.  

Exploding 6s is pretty amazing for 40 Ungors.  Tricky to say it's really powerful for Bullgors.  A while ago uh... cb42? argued the strength of his list was forcing opponents to roll dice for saves hence his use of 40 Ungors.   

Ideally you want your exploding 6s to have a reward that's beneficial.  High rend, MW, a lot more dice (40 Ungors exploding to 3 hits for really cheap and have board control and good objective capping capability).  Cause if it was just a +1 to hit vs an exploding hit then Sylvaneth Winterleaf would be really poweful.  And it's not.  Exploding 6s on Bullgors with Great Axes is WAY better than +1 to hit.  It's a MW, another chance for a dmg 3 -2 save hit which has better reliability on wounding also.  

 

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Ihave seen the new points of slaanes. Keeper 380 points. Contorted 210. Salaxi 370. Fiends 190

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Deamonettes lost their horde discount,

hellstriders are up 10pts

battallions are up

Supreme sybarites up 30

Seeker cavalcade up 10 

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Yeah, Slaanesh got hit for really no reason. We were down in terms of tournaments, and with the loss of realm artifacts, we lost a lot of tools that we used. It just feels bad to play the army as the book intended, and I don't feel like buying marauders (probably nerfed) or starting a full Depraved Drove army just to play slaanesh. At least I got this army for 40k, hope the new edition is kinder. 

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1 hour ago, Erfon said:

Ihave seen the new points of slaanes. Keeper 380 points. Contorted 210. Salaxi 370. Fiends 190

 

11 minutes ago, azdimy said:

Deamonettes lost their horde discount,

hellstriders are up 10pts

battallions are up

Supreme sybarites up 30

Seeker cavalcade up 10 

Are you both right? If yes, ouch :/

Oh well... Always claimed I liked a challenge!

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Most things that were used saw 10-20 point nerfs. The best thing that happened was Exalted Herald Chariots didn't get nerfed. 

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Well i made a mistake, shalaxi is 360 points, like an old keeper

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I sincerely expected the Keeper to go up to 400 because is the only real broken piece in the list, and everything else to go down (except the exalted chariot wich is fair priced) I didn't expected everything to go up, specially since triple keeper is like 60 points up now but they still perfom the same while using DP points to summon and no regular points.

Im happy about the fiends, their real price should be closer to 160 (170-ish) but i was worry about GW ignoring them again, going down to 190 is a good start, i really want an elite army of just these things XD

Sadly the changes arent agressive enough to shape the meta, the lists will be the same but with a little less amount of things on them, and i was hoping for non hero heavy armies to become a thing.

This is a massive nerf to the usual competitive list with triple keeper, contorted, supreme sybarites, triple hellstrider, cavalcade. If you add up everything is a 150 points nerf to the list. But fiends aren't cheap enough to be useful. I expect some massive drops to the winrate of the army, it may no longer be a competitive favourite like the other giants, wich is not strictly bad if all the other unbalanced armies get the same nerf hammer, but i doubt so.

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I'm almost sure, considering the time the GHB is written (looking at what battletomes aren't included), these changes were made in response to when we were top of the pack. If these had come out without our previous nerfs and while we were topping most tournaments, they'd have felt much closer to justified. Now they feel like being kicked when down, especially for some of the models (like daemonettes losing their horde bonus). 

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For me another bad new is what would happen with syll eske host. With the new generals  we cant use the artefacs of the realms and the host doesn't have artefacts. And sincerily the new objects are pretty bad

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, carnith said:

Yeah, Slaanesh got hit for really no reason. We were down in terms of tournaments, and with the loss of realm artifacts, we lost a lot of tools that we used. It just feels bad to play the army as the book intended, and I don't feel like buying marauders (probably nerfed) or starting a full Depraved Drove army just to play slaanesh. At least I got this army for 40k, hope the new edition is kinder. 

This is a little bit of a panic response given we are reading posts from a forum repeated from a rumour leak (not 100% fact but probably true).  The book doesn't need to be 60-70% WR to be good, even 50-55% is still fine.  I think the book settled on 57% WR?  That's still pretty good.  Also we have no clue what the tournament scene will show with the Be'Lakor book (Wrath of the Everchosen?)

The reason Slaanesh got hit was when the points were written Tzeentch wasn't out yet, the data between Dec and March was likely smaller, and then the lockdown happened.  So they are basing this off last year and the information they had at hand.  It wasn't no reason.  And everyone lost those same artifacts.  Think of Cities of Sigmar with 3 items per city.  Living City particularly did well with Ghyran artifacts.

I also assume GW would like Slaanesh to not be strictly hero lists (which I admit is a bit ironic given the mechanic of the army).  I am not saying that's good or bad but playstyles will have to adapt.

Daemonettes loosing their horde bonus is plain dumb.  Cause 2 x 30 doing MWs was the direction I was looking at.  Especially as they were only summoned before.

Edited by Popisdead

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The book was written and finalized back in august. This is the reason books around CoS and beyond have no point changes. If they were increasing our costs while releasing armies that countered our army, then why touch the mechanics in december and not just do the points there as well? They knew the points were going up in december. 

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in boredom, I've made the blender lord. 

Points spent are found below. He is 400 points under new hero system. Play in Aqshy for new rage blade. 6's to hit on his weapon are 4 hits. 

the-blender (3).jpg

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19 hours ago, carnith said:

The book was written and finalized back in august. 

August?  Then how does it have the December points updates?  This makes no sense.  They would release points then adjust them and finalize them in a month and sit on that for 11 months?

I just heard yesterday the split in 40k for book and points is so the smaller points update and be finalized about 3 months closer to the release date instead of the 6 months before.  There is no way the GHB 2021 will be finalized in a month.

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They printed the points in a separate pamphlet with the 2019 ghb to reflect closer state of the game, Why change the approach for the ghb 2020? This whole thing looks like a farce

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Popisdead said:

August?  Then how does it have the December points updates?  This makes no sense.  They would release points then adjust them and finalize them in a month and sit on that for 11 months?

I just heard yesterday the split in 40k for book and points is so the smaller points update and be finalized about 3 months closer to the release date instead of the 6 months before.  There is no way the GHB 2021 will be finalized in a month.

Because why not have point changes for anything past Cities? They said those point changes were not in the book because it had already gone to print. If the point book was printed so soon, then those changes could've also made it in as well. Since they have said that around Cities would've been the last book to come out before the book went to print, it leads me to believe that points were finalized around that time. OBR isn't that much later than cities, so why no point changes for them when we saw how well they were doing? 

Also they even say this. "Like in last year’s edition, we’ll be ensuring that armies released after the General’s Handbook went to print (that’s everything since Cities of Sigmar) will have their matched play profiles updated for free with a set of downloads in the very near future. " That tells me everything was pretty much final and went to print around that time, and December FAQ was more pressing things or to drip some of those changes. 

Edited by carnith

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5 minutes ago, carnith said:

Because why not have point changes for anything past Cities? They said those point changes were not in the book because it had already gone to print. If the point book was printed so soon, then those changes could've also made it in as well. Since they have said that around Cities would've been the last book to come out before the book went to print, it leads me to believe that points were finalized around that time. OBR isn't that much later than cities, so why no point changes for them when we saw how well they were doing? 

All that means is that the book went to print before they were able to decide on the point changes for the next book, not that they shipped it immediately after Cities released. Bonereapers didn't release until early November, so the book may have gone to print around then. Considering that it could take a couple months to gather information and make a proper informed decision on point changes, it could have even gone to print in January. Still makes  likely they knew points would change when they released the FAQ for Slaanesh in December though. 

 

48 minutes ago, azdimy said:

They printed the points in a separate pamphlet with the 2019 ghb to reflect closer state of the game, Why change the approach for the ghb 2020? This whole thing looks like a farce

Not sure what you mean? Everything I've heard is that there is a separate points pamphlet for the GHB 2020. You can even see a picture of it in the pre-order article last week. 

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16 minutes ago, carnith said:

Because why not have point changes for anything past Cities? They said those point changes were not in the book because it had already gone to print. If the point book was printed so soon, then those changes could've also made it in as well. Since they have said that around Cities would've been the last book to come out before the book went to print, it leads me to believe that points were finalized around that time. OBR isn't that much later than cities, so why no point changes for them when we saw how well they were doing? 

Also they even say this. "Like in last year’s edition, we’ll be ensuring that armies released after the General’s Handbook went to print (that’s everything since Cities of Sigmar) will have their matched play profiles updated for free with a set of downloads in the very near future. " That tells me everything was pretty much final and went to print around that time, and December FAQ was more pressing things or to drip some of those changes. 

It has the December changes.  That is past Cities.  It actually has post December updates as well ( like Slaanesh,... hence...).   

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2 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

All that means is that the book went to print before they were able to decide on the point changes for the next book, not that they shipped it immediately after Cities released. Bonereapers didn't release until early November, so the book may have gone to print around then. Considering that it could take a couple months to gather information and make a proper informed decision on point changes, it could have even gone to print in January. Still makes  likely they knew points would change when they released the FAQ for Slaanesh in December though. 

 

Not sure what you mean? Everything I've heard is that there is a separate points pamphlet for the GHB 2020. You can even see a picture of it in the pre-order article last week. 

If they print a separate pamphlet but don t take adavntage of the fact that it can be updated and printed at a later date than the ghb what s the point?

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13 hours ago, azdimy said:

If they print a separate pamphlet but don t take adavntage of the fact that it can be updated and printed at a later date than the ghb what s the point?

They explained that the last year, it is so you can keep the core GH for the new rules that come every year but throw away the points section and only keep the most recent one. Basically it make all the rules in the core GH never obsolete for narrative and open play so you can have all your core GH as a neat compendium of optional rules, while you only have one small booklet with all the current points. (This system got some faults, like the points that will come in the errata online, you'll never got them unless you print them as a separate book. They should make all the points adjustments online in a printable format in my opinion, but then, not a lot of people would buy GH as a product)

Talking about other things, as i expected the anvil of apotheosis heavily favour slaanesh, you can make some really fat heroes that are cheap and produce a lot of depravity, and it give access to buffs that we dont usually have, you freely choose between having a command ability of +1 to hit or +1 to save, or being a mage with some interesting  spells. One of the spells is range 12 difficulty 7 does d3 MW and give -1 to save rolls. Other is similar to hysterical frenzy range 12 difficulty 6 roll a dice for each model in the enemy unit and on a 5+ is a MW. Other is difficulty 6 and gives a 6+ ward save in a 12 bubble, The last one range 12 difficulty 6 pick an allied unit and you can return a number of slain models that have a combined wound characteristic of 1d3 or less to that unit. All of this looks really powerful compared to our overcosted mages and their pity aquiescence. It seems like a really basic hero with really basic weapons cost 50 points, then you can equip it with decent weapons from 10 to 30 points including a decent range weapon if you want to play it from a safe distance as a support tool. Then you can make it really beasty and powerful by investing more points, you can make something similar to a keeper of secrets with 250 points, sure it will not have the excess of violence command ability nor locust of diversion, but having a fat killy monster so cheap generating lot of depravity may be a great tool, You can do something like a really fat and unequiped monster with 13 wounds paying 200 points, but then it will hit somewhat soft (It will hit almost as a vanilla keeper of secrets wich is not that bad for 200 points hero that is gonna return at least 12 DP now that i think of it, but he cannot double the activation himself, this is like a soulfester KoS really well priced).

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