AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Kasper]

18 hours ago, MeSmashDaNoobs said:

hello!

deamon prince of slaanesh have a ability that lets him attack before the first chosen enemy unit in a combat phase.

if 2 different units is 3" away and want to pile in my friend says i need to attack the first unit that he attacks with.

 

i say i can choose to attack any unit i want inside 3" of me.

 

who is right amd who is wrong?

 

please help me with this.

In the future, when people call you out for being wrong and they believe they are right, just ask them to point it out in the rules where it says X. Usually helps for me, since they have trouble finding the thing and they literally just go off based on something they heard somewhere.

[Hellspawn]

Random question - what does the Sword of Judgement do with the Euphoric Killers rule??

If a natural 6 is rolled does it ...

A) give an extra attack that is at the base profile of the model

or

B) add to the sword of judgement's auto-wound ability

Thanks in advance

[MaroSauro]

A and B

You make an addittional attack and do D6 mortal wounds, via FAQ

[SwampHeart]

11 hours ago, Hellspawn said:

Random question - what does the Sword of Judgement do with the Euphoric Killers rule??

If a natural 6 is rolled does it ...

A) give an extra attack that is at the base profile of the model

or

B) add to the sword of judgement's auto-wound ability

Thanks in advance

You would 

-Do D6 MWs via the SoJ's usual ability
and then
-Roll an additional die for a chance at a 2nd wound (following normal rules, to wound, save, etc.)

[Saiken]

On 6/10/2019 at 3:49 PM, Magnus The Blue said:

That is a sweet alternative, but not for me.  Warhammer World is my local gaming store, which is generally great, but I ain't going to rock up with alternative models when they provide such amazing free gaming facilities.

I'm currently working on kitbashing a Keeper of Secret from a Ghorgon and Give Tyrant parts.

I'm pretty happy with the look of the claws so far. Going to try and finish it in the next few days. 

Let me know what you think

[Dr.E]

It’s funny since I’m doing the similar conversion this week  This is my version of ghorgon/cygor, which will be my 3rd KoS.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Dr.E

[Rock Lobster]

3 hours ago, Dr.E said:

It’s funny since I’m doing the similar conversion this week  This is my version of ghorgon/cygor, which will be my 3rd KoS.

I had never thought of kitbashing with the endless spells, what a great idea - Im sure there are all kind of possibilities there.

[SwampHeart]

A bit of discussion - inspired by @CB42's list. Obviously the conventional wisdom right now is to stack characters for DP generation. However I wonder if that doesn't lead to too much focus on summoning and thus begins to ignore the combat and speed strength of the list? I've also been looking at my lists and I wonder if I haven't given up too many bodies to stack characters as well. 

[Midjithero]

Since we are posting Ghorgon Kit bashed Keepers...

 

love the Pendulum addition btw!

[CB42]

3 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

A bit of discussion - inspired by @CB42's list. Obviously the conventional wisdom right now is to stack characters for DP generation. However I wonder if that doesn't lead to too much focus on summoning and thus begins to ignore the combat and speed strength of the list? I've also been looking at my lists and I wonder if I haven't given up too many bodies to stack characters as well. 

I think there are three main directions to go - more alpha strike heavy (which my list is all the way in that direction), more summoning heavy (which a three Keeper list might embody) or something in between (ex: 6 heroes and 50 daemonettes). I personally think alpha strike / board control lists are better against top tier armies right now.

I personally like having tons of bodies for board control and tons of mobility / damage for an alpha strike because it allows me to deny whatever the other player is trying to do and then hit them in the face. Bodies let me deny deepstrike from Evocator/Sequitor/Gavriel bombs; they let me screen against turn 1 charges from other Slaanesh players; they let me deny entire halves of the board from ambush style deepstrike like FEC; and they let me hold objectives for far longer than I should when someone is clearly going to table me eventually and I'm trying to hold onto an early lead.

In contrast, replacing those bodies with more heroes, it gives the other player room to start outplaying you. Even if you get the Locus off, if someone drops 10 Evocators into 10 daemonettes, then you fight first with the daemonettes, and then the Evocators can pile a few models within melee range of a Keeper, that Keeper has a high chance of dying before it can fight. If you're fighting Skaven and your heroes are on your front line and 39 plague monks with Death Frenzy are sent into your heroes with Lauchon the Soulseeker, it doesn't matter that you can Locus them and fight first - everything you love is going to die because that's what plague monks do. If you're engaging FEC dragons with your keepers and FEC ghouls with your daemonettes, you don't have the bodies to prevent the 2 archregents from summoning 40 ghouls onto your backline objectives. You might still win eventually through summoning, but you're now playing from behind.

Alpha strike heavy lists let you force the other player to play from behind. With the extreme mobility afforded by Bestigors (4 inches faster than Daemonettes) and Seekers (8+1d6 inches faster than Daemonettes) backed by Chronomantic Cogs, I can choose my fights. I can hit the other person on turn 1 no matter where they are on the board, and I can hit key targets while securing objectives. Most of my alpha strike will die, but they'll kill far more than their points in value first, and in doing so will disrupt whatever plan the other player is trying to enact. From that point forward, the other player is down in points and I have any surviving Seekers plus summoning to steal objectives they don't defend, and I have 60 ungors plus summoning to hold my own objectives or slow down their attempts to take my objectives.

My list isn't perfect - it struggles against Fyreslayers and Nurgle in particular, who have sufficiently tanky units that I can't alpha strike them if they build their list right - but it has good matchups against FEC, DoK, and Slaanesh, and solid matchups against Skaven and LoN, and I'll take a bad matchup against Fyreslayers to get good matchups against all the other top tier armies. I haven't played against fish yet, but I believe that with my 60 models of screen, I'll be able to prevent them from dropping eels onto my valuable units, and if I can charge their eels instead of their eels charging my besties / seekers, then the game will favor me pretty heavily.

[Browncoat89]

11 hours ago, CB42 said:

I think there are three main directions to go - more alpha strike heavy (which my list is all the way in that direction), more summoning heavy (which a three Keeper list might embody) or something in between (ex: 6 heroes and 50 daemonettes). I personally think alpha strike / board control lists are better against top tier armies right now.

I personally like having tons of bodies for board control and tons of mobility / damage for an alpha strike because it allows me to deny whatever the other player is trying to do and then hit them in the face. Bodies let me deny deepstrike from Evocator/Sequitor/Gavriel bombs; they let me screen against turn 1 charges from other Slaanesh players; they let me deny entire halves of the board from ambush style deepstrike like FEC; and they let me hold objectives for far longer than I should when someone is clearly going to table me eventually and I'm trying to hold onto an early lead.

In contrast, replacing those bodies with more heroes, it gives the other player room to start outplaying you. Even if you get the Locus off, if someone drops 10 Evocators into 10 daemonettes, then you fight first with the daemonettes, and then the Evocators can pile a few models within melee range of a Keeper, that Keeper has a high chance of dying before it can fight. If you're fighting Skaven and your heroes are on your front line and 39 plague monks with Death Frenzy are sent into your heroes with Lauchon the Soulseeker, it doesn't matter that you can Locus them and fight first - everything you love is going to die because that's what plague monks do. If you're engaging FEC dragons with your keepers and FEC ghouls with your daemonettes, you don't have the bodies to prevent the 2 archregents from summoning 40 ghouls onto your backline objectives. You might still win eventually through summoning, but you're now playing from behind.

Alpha strike heavy lists let you force the other player to play from behind. With the extreme mobility afforded by Bestigors (4 inches faster than Daemonettes) and Seekers (8+1d6 inches faster than Daemonettes) backed by Chronomantic Cogs, I can choose my fights. I can hit the other person on turn 1 no matter where they are on the board, and I can hit key targets while securing objectives. Most of my alpha strike will die, but they'll kill far more than their points in value first, and in doing so will disrupt whatever plan the other player is trying to enact. From that point forward, the other player is down in points and I have any surviving Seekers plus summoning to steal objectives they don't defend, and I have 60 ungors plus summoning to hold my own objectives or slow down their attempts to take my objectives.

My list isn't perfect - it struggles against Fyreslayers and Nurgle in particular, who have sufficiently tanky units that I can't alpha strike them if they build their list right - but it has good matchups against FEC, DoK, and Slaanesh, and solid matchups against Skaven and LoN, and I'll take a bad matchup against Fyreslayers to get good matchups against all the other top tier armies. I haven't played against fish yet, but I believe that with my 60 models of screen, I'll be able to prevent them from dropping eels onto my valuable units, and if I can charge their eels instead of their eels charging my besties / seekers, then the game will favor me pretty heavily.

Hey guys, 

I'm new to this thread, just picked up the new book, I've been dying to jump into Slaanesh for the past few years but was waiting fore more diversity in the model range. I've been debating which type of list to go with as well before I buy any more models. Wouldn't the 3 Keepers really add to the alpha strike capabilities as well though? If you can start with 3 command points through battalions & command traits it could allow up to 3 other units that manage a 1st turn charge to all go twice in the first combat phase almost doubling the effectiveness of that alpha strike. Especially with Locus going off for 3 greater daemons as well. Idk I'm just trying to think of things here, like I said I'm new to the army. Of course you're gonna have significantly less points to dedicate to other units, maybe 2 Keepers or something in the middle. 

I've seen a lot of talk about daemonettes and hellstriders as battleline, are those pretty consistently considered the best battleline right now or is anyone looking at like chaos warriors, seeker chariots, other stuff as well?

Edited June 20, 2019 by Browncoat89

[MeSmashDaNoobs]

On 5/8/2019 at 11:46 AM, Overread said:

The other is that fiends are at the 210 price point which is fair for what they are, but competes with several heroes in the same price slot.

 

I like how GW has limited how Slaanesh can generate depravity points, but I worry that in a bid to avoid having everything generate them they've gone a touch too far to the point where Slaanesh armies are all generals no troops. I wonder if a subtle shift such as allowing the whole army to generate depravity points on wounds caused, but not kills; would even the score. That would still make heroes great to use, but it would at least make troops and regular units more viable to take and balance out the heavy offset in taking more leaders. 

yeah i like this idea alot, not only that but you would also consider slaanesh mortal more. This idea is game changing.

[Magnus The Blue]

I think for pure value Ungor are probably our best battleline (in a deprived drove), closely followed by hellstriders who's speed and relative hardiness is great for our play style.

Daemonettes are feel like they should be maybe 8 points each instead of 11. The Slave to Darkness options are ok, but  mostly lack the mobility to keep up and lose some synergy by not being Hedonites (no Keeper command ability for them).

[CB42]

8 hours ago, Browncoat89 said:

Hey guys, 

I'm new to this thread, just picked up the new book, I've been dying to jump into Slaanesh for the past few years but was waiting fore more diversity in the model range. I've been debating which type of list to go with as well before I buy any more models. Wouldn't the 3 Keepers really add to the alpha strike capabilities as well though? If you can start with 3 command points through battalions & command traits it could allow up to 3 other units that manage a 1st turn charge to all go twice in the first combat phase almost doubling the effectiveness of that alpha strike. Especially with Locus going off for 3 greater daemons as well. Idk I'm just trying to think of things here, like I said I'm new to the army. Of course you're gonna have significantly less points to dedicate to other units, maybe 2 Keepers or something in the middle. 

I've seen a lot of talk about daemonettes and hellstriders as battleline, are those pretty consistently considered the best battleline right now or is anyone looking at like chaos warriors, seeker chariots, other stuff as well?

It’s a relative value type of thing on the alpha strike - a Keeper of Secrets fighting twice has the potential to do 38 wounds (plus 6s explode into 2 hits), while 30 Daemonettes fighting twice has the potential to do 120 wounds (plus 6s explode into 3 hits). Obviously they’re not directly comparable like that, but killy hordes tend to be more efficient at dealing damage than behemoths. And when you’re taking 3 keepers, you just don’t have room in your list to go hard on bringing alpha strike units that can consistently cross 18-24 inches to hit someone in their own deployment zone. Daemonettes can do 18 inches about 2/3 of the time, but they can never do 24 inches. And small units of Hellstriders aren’t good alpha strike units. Which is why I like huge units of Bestigors and Seekers for my alpha strike.

What 3 Keepers does is make it really, really hard for enemy units to fight them if the 3 keepers are bunched up - any units that charge them will be fighting last, and going with all 3 keepers first will destroy most units. But it does mean you’re overloading one side of the board instead of contesting both sides unless you break up the 3 Keeper ball of death.

The value of the keeper list is really not in its alpha strike - it’s in the summoning. My alpha strike list generates 18-30 depravity by turn 3. 3 Keeper lists generate closer to 70-80 depravity by turn 3. I tabled a 3 Keeper list and took no damage on any of my heroes or multiwound models, and he still managed to generate 55 depravity, and that’s an absolute worst case scenario for him.

Chaos warriors are garbage right now, although some people have found a use for them as tanky objective holders. The cheapest battleline would be small units of Ungors if you’re taking the Depraved Drove battalion, so they’re good for putting bodies on the field. Hellstriders are good pure Slaanesh battleline because they’re relatively cheap at 100 points and are fast enough to steal objectives. Daemonettes can be used to get 10 bodies on the field, but they work best in larger groups.

Seeker Chariots as battleline are fun but not worth their points, in my opinion. They don’t have the bodies for holding or stealing objectives, and they don’t have as many attacks as Daemonettes or Hellstriders.

Edited June 20, 2019 by CB42

[SwampHeart]

10 hours ago, Browncoat89 said:

Wouldn't the 3 Keepers really add to the alpha strike capabilities as well though? If you can start with 3 command points through battalions & command traits it could allow up to 3 other units that manage a 1st turn charge to all go twice in the first combat phase almost doubling the effectiveness of that alpha strike. Especially with Locus going off for 3 greater daemons as well. Idk I'm just trying to think of things here, like I said I'm new to the army. Of course you're gonna have significantly less points to dedicate to other units, maybe 2 Keepers or something in the middle. 

3 Keepers just doesn't leave you enough points to spend on quality units afterwards - you're talking about 1080 points in monsters, plus the cost of Sybarites if you go that direction. By the time you've got your keepers (and you'll likely still want an epitome) you just don't have enough units to take advantage of all that CP. Ultimately units tend to be more substantive and less swing-y than behemoths (more dice results in less deviation from expected outcomes). I've played two keeper lists and still find myself lacking the remaining tools I want on the table. 

 

[Browncoat89]

3 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

3 Keepers just doesn't leave you enough points to spend on quality units afterwards - you're talking about 1080 points in monsters, plus the cost of Sybarites if you go that direction. By the time you've got your keepers (and you'll likely still want an epitome) you just don't have enough units to take advantage of all that CP. Ultimately units tend to be more substantive and less swing-y than behemoths (more dice results in less deviation from expected outcomes). I've played two keeper lists and still find myself lacking the remaining tools I want on the table. 

 

Yeah I could still definitely see that, so leaning towards like 1-2 Keeper lists for board control and other units. Besides daemonettes what other major units stand out as favorites for the bulk of the army?

[SwampHeart]

15 minutes ago, Browncoat89 said:

Besides daemonettes what other major units stand out as favorites for the bulk of the army?

I'm quite fond of seekers and then the BoC options. Bestigors are an amazing hammer in a HoS army and Ungors make for great battle line slots - either as dirt cheap minimums or in a large unit to give you a double duty screen/chaff clearing unit. 

[Browncoat89]

A summoning heavy godseeker army could do decent with summoning blocks of 20 or 30 daemonettes at the end of the move phase then pretty reliably charging them in immediately before they get widdled down. Summoning at 9" with +1 to charge and re-rolling failed charges for banners, could even use the cogs if you had to as well. That could be a pretty reliable way to get exploding 6's without shooting armies blasting the unit down too quick. With a well placed Keeper you could easily get exploding 6's going to 3 wounds a piece piling in and attacking twice before the enemy could attack at all with Locus going off.

Just posting my random brainstorming now so you guys can show me the holes in my own thinking now lol, it's a good way to learn I suppose 😂

Edited June 20, 2019 by Browncoat89

[blubearbare]

Been reading a lot of the comments and I made a lists with all the concerns. I would rather not run BoC in my army list (Already have a pure BoC army want to play demons for Slaanesh) is this list viable or should I swap out some demonettes for an infernal enrapturess and cogs

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Pretenders Host
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Keeper of Secrets (360)
- General
- Sinistrous Hand
- Trait: Strength of Goodhood
- Artefact: Sliverslash
- Host Option: Monarch of Lies (Pretenders Host Second Command Trait)
- Spell: Progeny of Damnation
The Contorted Epitome (200)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
- Lore of Slaanesh: Hysterical Frenzy
Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (220)
- Lore of Slaanesh: Phantasmagoria

Battleline
30 x Daemonettes (300)
20 x Daemonettes (220)
20 x Daemonettes (220)

Units
15 x Seekers (360)

Battalions
Supreme Sybarites (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 131

 

[Poryague]

21 minutes ago, blubearbare said:

Been reading a lot of the comments and I made a lists with all the concerns. I would rather not run BoC in my army list (Already have a pure BoC army want to play demons for Slaanesh) is this list viable or should I swap out some demonettes for an infernal enrapturess and cogs

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Pretenders Host
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Keeper of Secrets (360)
- General
- Sinistrous Hand
- Trait: Strength of Goodhood
- Artefact: Sliverslash
- Host Option: Monarch of Lies (Pretenders Host Second Command Trait)
- Spell: Progeny of Damnation
The Contorted Epitome (200)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
- Lore of Slaanesh: Hysterical Frenzy
Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (220)
- Lore of Slaanesh: Phantasmagoria

Battleline
30 x Daemonettes (300)
20 x Daemonettes (220)
20 x Daemonettes (220)

Units
15 x Seekers (360)

Battalions
Supreme Sybarites (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 131

 

We kinda need 4 heroes especially if you want to summon and use the locus to support your units. Another option for horde is chaos marauders marked slaanesh there pretty good 40 for 200 points. 

[Popisdead]

On 6/12/2019 at 7:18 AM, CB42 said:

Hellstriders should always be with clawspears. Always.

While I always side with "rend is king" you don't think there is any mileage with the 3" reach of the whips even with a big unit, you may get them all in attacking.  Just a random thought i had while reading warscrolls.

[jackmcmahon]

17 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

While I always side with "rend is king" you don't think there is any mileage with the 3" reach of the whips even with a big unit, you may get them all in attacking.  Just a random thought i had while reading warscrolls.

If you can pile in from 6" with battalion, you can also attack them at 2.9in away so only 1 rank of the enemy attacks back.

[CB42]

2 hours ago, Popisdead said:

While I always side with "rend is king" you don't think there is any mileage with the 3" reach of the whips even with a big unit, you may get them all in attacking.  Just a random thought i had while reading warscrolls.

They have enough speed that even in a unit of 20 you should be able to spread them out wide enough to get all of them or at least most of them in. Additionally, a large portion of your damage is via the licky tongues, so you need to get them within close range anyways.

[Enoby]

Got some updates on my current army Just the Keeper of Secrets to go, though I am thinking of expanding the army with beastmen - I'm not a fan of the bestigore model (they look too barbaric), anyone know a good GW substitute? I don't mind conversions.  

[Sobakaa]

@Enoby if you don't mind me asking, where are the scull-headed minis from?