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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


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On 8/31/2021 at 8:20 PM, Enoby said:

Okay, so here is the initial post for the survey, including conclusion and results :)

You can find the full document here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1quNymPJ4G7IWBGZqfxjklNbllD2mGsQzP3cSOtA_ErI/edit?usp=sharing

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Hedonites of Slaanesh battletome survey

Overall, there were 281 participants, and 91 comments (which will be included in the bottom of these stats). The comments may well be the most insightful part so I would recommend reading them - offensive or obviously ‘trollish’ comments have been omitted.

While there will be an inherent bias in these answers, considering that this can be an emotionally charged discussion, but it is important to note that not all responses are 100% “this unit is too expensive” and that this should be viewed as a guide to some initially gentle touches. Bias or not, if usually only 50% of people say a unit is too expensive, but for one particular unit it is 85% then there is a higher chance that this is a ‘problem’ unit. I have employed the use of Z values to look into this in more detail. 

Mean number of people who responded “X Unit is too highly costed”

While I will include the stats for every question, I believe it would be useful to give some sort of guidance to what the perceived ‘problem’ units are, and to do that I will calculate the Z value “X unit is too highly costed” differs significantly from the mean number of people answering “X unit is too highly costed”. The Z value looks at the number of standard deviations an individual score is above or below the mean. This does not mean that these ‘significant’ units are actually problems (or that other units are), but rather it aims to give a bit of a steer on what to look at first and also aims to control slightly for the bias that will be inherent to surveys like this. 

Note, not every question got 281 answers.

The reason this just looks at “too highly costed” rather than “too cheaply costed” is because there isn’t a single unit where the highest voted answer is “too cheaply costed”.

The average number of people who answered “X unit is too highly costed” for every unit is: 141.15625, Standard Deviation, σ: 51.506740684473

The formula for a Z value is z = (x-μ)/σ, where x is the raw score, μ is the population mean, and σ is the population standard deviation.

Ranked Z values

I have ranked the Z values calculated from the below questions in order to show the most deviating scores. The more the score deviated from the mean (141.15625), the higher the Z value (a negative value means the score deviated below the mean). 

 

* Significant at 0.1 level, ** Significant at 0.05 level

Unit name

Z value

Slaangors

1.93846**

Keeper of Secrets

1.8608**

Blissbarb Archers

1.82197**

Daemonettes

1.41426*

Shalaxi Helbane

1.41426*

Myrmadesh Painbringers

1.20069

Blissbarb seekers

0.96771

Symbaresh Twinsouls

0.90947

Slickblade Seekers

0.83181

Fiends of Slaanesh

0.67649

Shardspeaker of Slaanesh

0.36585

Contorted Epitome

0.34644

Glutos Orscollion, Lord of Gluttony

0.07463

Infernal enrapturess

-0.02245

Lord of Pain

-0.06128

Bladebringer, Herald on Hellflayer

-0.43016

Hellflayer

-0.48841

Syll’Esske, the Vengeful Allegiance

-0.48841

Exalted Chariot

-0.52724

Wheels of Excruciation

-0.52724

Bladebringer, Herald on Seeker Chariot

-0.54665

Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot

-0.56607

Seekers of Slaanesh

-0.64373

Viceleader, Herald of Slaanesh

-0.70197

Mesmerising Mirror

-0.81846

Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh

-0.81846

Dexcessa, the Talon of Slaanesh

-0.95436

Dreadful Visage

-1.07085

Synessa, the Voice of Slaanesh

-1.14851

Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh

-1.24559

The Masque of Slaanesh

-1.30383

Hellstriders of Slaanesh

-1.45915*

 

With these scores in mind, I would recommend a careful look at all positive values including those that are not significant, but to pay special attention to those which are significant at the 0.1 level (Daemonettes, Shalaxi Helbane) and have a deep look at those significant at the 0.05 level (Slaangor Fiendbloods, Keeper of Secrets, Blissbarb Archers). 

Conclusion

Overall, there is a neutral to negative view of the battletome, with the majority of people saying they like the rules (60.5%) but also a larger majority saying they believe the battletome is below the average quality compared to other battletomes (66.5%) and a significant majority (88.6%) believing the majority of units are overcosted. 

Of the units people are most concerned about points-wise, Slaangors, the Keeper of Secrets, and Blissbarb Archers have highly significant numbers of people believing they are overcosted (P < 0.05), and the Daemonettes and Shalaxi Helbane are thought of as significantly overcosted (P < 0.1). I believe that these units should have another look over as there is a low probability (sub 5% and sub 10% respectively) that these units were considered overcosted due to chance, meaning that these are the units that drew the most powerful reaction from survey answers. No units had the answer “No I think they are too cheaply costed” as a majority. 

While it is expected (if not confirmed) that the units are priced so highly due to the army’s powerful ability to summon, it may be worth revising this or at least giving it another think over as Slaanesh players and opponents alike believe many of the points are too high regardless. Looking at some of the comments, some would prefer summoning to get worse and points to get lower, or for Slaanesh units not to pay for it at all. 

On the topic of summoning, 8.2% of people believe that it should be the main ‘theme’ in a Slaanesh army, though 38.1% of people say they like it when not asked about it specifically, and 46.6% of people like it when asked about it specifically (compared to 45.2% of people disliking it in some capacity). Overall, summoning is a controversial part of the battletome and, looking at these stats, I think it would be beneficial for the focus to be moved from summoning to another part of the faction’s theme. 

In addition to points and summoning, there was also a call for a rewrite on some warscrolls. The most called for was Slaangors, when not asked about them specifically 73% of people liked the idea of them getting a rewrite, and when asked specifically 76.3% of people wanted them to get a rewrite over a points adjustment. Other notable calls for a rewrite, 45.2% of respondents wanted to see a rewrite of the Shalaxi Helbane warscroll. 

From a more financial/popularity perspective, 64.7% of respondents have said that the points costs have negatively affected their purchases on Slaanesh models, with 22.4% of people saying they haven’t bought anything for Slaanesh because of the points costs but would have otherwise, and 42.3% saying they have bought some but would have bought more if not for the points.  

Of the positives of the book, the most popular part of the book was the innate speed of the army, with 62.3% of people saying they liked this aspect of the book. In addition, the other liked parts was the frequency of rend in the faction (45.2%) and the new mechanics of Depravity Points though not necessarily the summoning (45.2%). 

When asked about what the preferred theme of a Slaanesh battletome should be, the responses were mixed but the highest one was “a finesse playstyle” (31%), followed by “speed” at 23.8%.

Looking to the future, a number of responses were given to what they would like to see in the future. The most popular of these requests is a rewrite to the Slaangor warscroll, with 70.8% of people asking for this. Other popular requests included “More support within the allegiance abilities for mortal only armies” (50.2%), “Synessa getting an extra spell” (54.1%), “An alternative way of using depravity points” (48%), “More synergies available” (48.4%), “More hosts/host options to theme an army around” (47%), and “An expanded mortal spell lore” (44.8%). While many of these options may be a struggle to include quickly, I think it would be fantastic if they could be included in the next battletome or in supplementary books (such as Wrath of the Everchosen) or a Tome Celestial.

Overall, I think that there is a good base for future rules in this battletome, but it faces two major issues - the first is oppressive points costs, with some players feeling as if they are restricted in list building. The second is that the tome feels a bit bare bones - it’s a good foundation, but there’s not much meat to get into with lists; e.g. there are very few synergies or combos, the hosts give very minor bonuses, the daemon spell lore is multiple ways to do mortal wounds and the mortal spell lore is weak and very sparse. That said, with a few tweaks (hopefully using some of these answers as a guide) I think that the book could be fantastic and I fully appreciate that the previous battletome was a bit too strong as so a lot of effort had to be spent on toning it down. 

Finally, to move away from the survey for a moment, Slaanesh is not performing particularly well at a tournament level. See below: 

 

n-HCKRsqqH0Rf0i9YJH0_oepyA7uQe7nvsKBFJhtWgMjfVRuL9gRgeGqmMY7E1tbJl1B0XzI_sBvCl5-km6IB5nL3tjFaJT_p_TfIDnf7z4eAwtSkYtf38jzZdRKX2XkcXispQ8=s0

 

While not the lowest win percentage, a 36% win rate is poor and hopefully leads some credence to the idea that the summoning doesn’t need as much of a points buffer to keep it under control. 

 

With the fan response being overwhelmingly in favour of reducing points costs and tournament data showing Slaanesh is well below the average win rate of factions in tournaments, I believe this is a good argument to having a rethink of the points, and I am certain many Slaanesh fans would appreciate positive changes being made to both points and rules updates in the future. 

This was an absolutely sterling effort by the way @Enoby and I hope some good comes of it. The further we get past 3.0 release the more obvious it seems that we were done dirty -- we are severely underrepresented on the competitive scene and we don't place well when we do turn up. I hope we don't languish in the Beast of Chaos/Gloomspite Gitz bottom bracket for too long. 

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At this point one can only hope they actually deal with the shooty/magic meta in future books as these are the problem armies. If it turns out as an arms race to create ever more alpha strike armies rather than overhauling those armies this game is going to become a game you win or lose on a single dice roll (priority).

Or maybe, much like when things spiraled out of control in the days WHFB, TOs en masse will start to create army composition rules and custom battle packs to ensure we see a more healthy tournament scene. I remember several tournaments which flat out gave certain armies more/less points to use in their list since they were so obviously poorly pointed (feel somewhat familiar, eh?). The result was that you saw armies which would never be considered as a tournament viable army and as a result a really good mood and atmosphere was created. 

It is also a very effective way to get GW to do something since it looks really bad when the community start house ruling their official rules.

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17 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

Or maybe, much like when things spiraled out of control in the days WHFB, TOs en masse will start to create army composition rules and custom battle packs to ensure we see a more healthy tournament scene. I remember several tournaments which flat out gave certain armies more/less points to use in their list since they were so obviously poorly pointed (feel somewhat familiar, eh?). The result was that you saw armies which would never be considered as a tournament viable army and as a result a really good mood and atmosphere was created. 

I'll die on this hill -- shooting needs to go back to how it was in Oldhammer. No shooting into melees containing your own units (unless you're Skaven). Units already in melee cannot shoot at all. Shooting is far too powerful and needs to be brought in line.

Also save-stacking needs to go because as a -1 rend army pretty much across the board we are even less effective than we used to be. A 4+ save easily goes to 3+/ignore 1 rend, so we pretty much cannot cut through even moderate defences. 

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10 minutes ago, azdimy said:

Don t deamonettes have rend 3 on 6s to wound in 40k? I d like to see that in aos as our Deamonettes are one if not the worst battleline in the game for its points

I haven't found them to be bad in units of 10.  They're not a high priority target, so they don't tend to encounter your opponents big hammers or draw the attention of their buffs (like All out Defense).

Therefore, their bravery 10 means they don't tend to vanish to partial casualties, and their rend 1 means they do slightly better damage than expected (no one is putting AoD or Mystic Shield in front of 10 daemonettes).  They're quick, and they're bodies in the table.  

My issue with Daemonettes comes when you try and invest in them.  30 is not worth the tax at 420 points, and their weaknesses are apparent when they're scary enough for opponents to care and put resources in their way. 

I think they really suffer from the removal of horde discounts, as they're an excellent case of where it makes a lot of sense.  

I worry about buffing their warscroll, as they're already a fantastic 12DP summon, and I've had absolutely zero complaints about their performance when I'm not paying points for them in that quantity.  3 hits on 6s means weight of dice is a terrifying threat to most things. 

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32 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

I haven't found them to be bad in units of 10.  They're not a high priority target, so they don't tend to encounter your opponents big hammers or draw the attention of their buffs (like All out Defense).

Therefore, their bravery 10 means they don't tend to vanish to partial casualties, and their rend 1 means they do slightly better damage than expected (no one is putting AoD or Mystic Shield in front of 10 daemonettes).  They're quick, and they're bodies in the table.  

My issue with Daemonettes comes when you try and invest in them.  30 is not worth the tax at 420 points, and their weaknesses are apparent when they're scary enough for opponents to care and put resources in their way. 

I think they really suffer from the removal of horde discounts, as they're an excellent case of where it makes a lot of sense.  

I worry about buffing their warscroll, as they're already a fantastic 12DP summon, and I've had absolutely zero complaints about their performance when I'm not paying points for them in that quantity.  3 hits on 6s means weight of dice is a terrifying threat to most things. 

They can increase their summoning points if that is too strong to summon. The fact they re never in any Slaanesh starting army speak for itself

With a conditionnal rend 3 on 6s to wound 30 Deamonettes provided they can all attack would do 15 damage instead of currently 12 to a 3+ save and would have a lot less impact to units with worse saves as the added rend would not matter .Deamonettes should be scary not be bodies on the table. I like our army being elite but the warscrolls need to reflect that as the points already do

I don t think that would make them too good in any way. Even when summoned for 12 DPs

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I've started work on painting up Glutos (and, coincidentally, started cursing past me's decision to use NMM gold for this slaanesh army...).  I've noticed that each of the character cupolas have little pockets of themed trinkets, the priestess has some scrolls, the painmaster a bunch of coins/treasure, but I can't for the life of my figure out what's supposed to be in the front of the whip guy, it's kind of tiny, squiggly bits, my best guess is that it's supposed to be bits of offal to throw to the mutants dragging the wagon around?  Anyone got any better insight?

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On 8/29/2021 at 5:18 AM, Carnith said:

List I'm going to try out tomorrow. 

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Invaders Host
- Grand Strategy: None Chosen
- Triumphs:
Be'Lakor, the Dark Master (360)
Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (265)
- General
- Command Trait: Skin-taker
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Synessa, The Voice of Slaanesh (260)
- Host Option: General
Shardspeaker of Slaanesh (150)
- Artefact: The Rod of Misrule
- Host Option: General
- Lore of Pain and Pleasure: Battle Rapture
11 x Blissbarb Archers (180)
11 x Blissbarb Archers (180)
5 x Hellstriders with Claw-spears (135)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (230)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (230)
*Command Entourage - Magnificent
**Battle Regiment

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110
Drops: 9
 

It's missing something, but I don't know what

 

or who...

Edited by Khendall
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12 hours ago, Lucentia said:

I've started work on painting up Glutos (and, coincidentally, started cursing past me's decision to use NMM gold for this slaanesh army...).  I've noticed that each of the character cupolas have little pockets of themed trinkets, the priestess has some scrolls, the painmaster a bunch of coins/treasure, but I can't for the life of my figure out what's supposed to be in the front of the whip guy, it's kind of tiny, squiggly bits, my best guess is that it's supposed to be bits of offal to throw to the mutants dragging the wagon around?  Anyone got any better insight?

Yeah I got the impression it was offal. 

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@Enoby@AngryPanda My friend has picked up our survey, it has been sent to proper GW departments.

Quote

Good morning,

Thank you so much for taking the time to organize this survey.

We do take all feedback very seriously from our customers and we listen to your ideas in hope of improving various factions as well as the core rules itself.

This email has been passed on to the relevant heads of departments to look into.

Thanks again for your email, and should you need anything further, please let me know.
Kind regards

 

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So I finally got a win with slaanesh at 2k in 3.0 last night. Champagne! 😀
My list was
Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Godseeker Host
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
Triumphs: Inspired
Infernal Enrapturess, Herald of Slaanesh (140)
Keeper of Secrets (420)
- General
- Sinistrous Hand
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Slothful Stupor
*Glutos (475)
Spell: battle rapture
* Be'Lakor, the Dark Master (360)
- Allies
11 x blissbarb archers (180)
5 x hellstriders (135)
5 x hellstriders(135)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Cogs (45)
1960

I was facing a big waagh list with 180 wounds, rogue idol, 30 arrow boyz, 2 wardokk, maniak, wurgogg prophet.
10 savage boys, 10 savage boys, 5 boarboyz, 10 Ardboys, warchanter

My magic was mostly useless against a list like this. He had between 20 and 30 waagh points always and kept using them to be  on +3 to cast the spells he needed and +2 to dispell my key spells he had 2 casters that could reroll casting and unbind

We played tectonic interference

My opponent goes first and puts all his buffs
Score all 3 objectives for 4 and ferocious advance for 2
My turn1 I take the alpha objective back  and score ferocious advance with 3 monsters for 5, I block his line with both units of hellstriders
Turn 2
My opponent wins the priority roll and takes the turn
I belakor the rogue idol
He shoots down the hellstriders in the way and make a 13in charge with the ardboyz with +1 damage from the warchanter and mystic shield on them behind my line into the blissbarb archers and engage the keeper as well.He kills the blissbarb to a man, the keeper retaliates and kills 4 of them
He scores aggressive expansion and take all the objectives again for another 6 pts putting him at 12
My turn 2 I declare broken ranks kill the Ardboyz with the keeper and glutos takes back the alpha abjective, I score 5 again putting me at 10
I get the double turn on turn 3
I score agressive expansion taking the alpha and another objective. I summon 30 deamonettes to shield my keeper from the rogue idol charge. I am on 15
His turn 3, he kills 14 deamonettes from his prophet warscroll spell fist of gork. scores savage spear charge the buffed rogue idol into the deamonettes and finish the unit and kill belakor with 90 shots exploding on 6s from the arrowboyz he s on 17
Turn 4 he gets the double declares bring it down on my keeper. I have mystic shield on it and 3 cps. The Arrowboyz do only 2 wounds to it and the rogue idol another 2 which denies him the battletactic he s on 19
My opponents needs to go so we walk through the last turns
On my turn 4 I can keep the alpha and score savage spearhead for 4 putting me at 19
We roll off and I win the roll for turn 5
I score monstrous takover with the keeper for another 4 putting me at 23 and summon 10 deamonettrs t9 block the rogue idol
His last turn he scores 2 for his 2 objectives and fail conquer with glutos and the keeper sitting on the objective and the deamonettes in the way putting him at 21
Final score was 26 to 24

I was very lucky that the alpha obective stayed on my side of the table the whole game  This was a hard list and my ploy to use slothful stupor on the big hero had no place against that list
Glutos and the keeper were the mvps
I was able to use 18 depravity throughout the game which is ok but was still outnumbered the entire game. Having 2 monsters and the ability to make a hero a third with metamorphosis is in my opinion our best option to keep up on the scoreboard. The extra points in the battletactics from monsters and have monsters that are hard to kill to avoid giving away points was key
I am going to remove cogs and go for a mesmerizing mirror instead next time also switch from godseekers to pretenders to get an extra command trait and the reroll 1s to hits for summoned deamonettes

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Nice work with the new survey @Enoby! It’s great to hear that GW heads have seen the survey @Sorrow. Hopefully some meaningful change will come to our book eventually. As it stands, it seems that the majority of the community believes HoS to be one of the weakest books. The tournament data also seems to also indicate this. I’m in the opinion that the book is weak at a competitive level, but can preform alright in casual settings. Regardless, I’ve hadn’t had the time to play many games recently, but I’ve been quietly observing the community’s experiences with the army. 

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5 hours ago, AngryPanda said:

Nice work with the new survey @Enoby! It’s great to hear that GW heads have seen the survey @Sorrow. Hopefully some meaningful change will come to our book eventually. As it stands, it seems that the majority of the community believes HoS to be one of the weakest books. The tournament data also seems to also indicate this. I’m in the opinion that the book is weak at a competitive level, but can preform alright in casual settings. Regardless, I’ve hadn’t had the time to play many games recently, but I’ve been quietly observing the community’s experiences with the army. 

We did our part, the rest is up to GW.

Tournament data from the world places us at Beasts of Chaos level in competitive scene.

For a newly updated army, that is quite bad. People look at armies that got updated such as Lumineth or released such as Soulblight and the difference is truly great. Just take a look where Lumineth and Soulblight end up on tournament data.

Edited by Sorrow
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2 hours ago, docofallplagues said:

Managed to snag a unit of hellstriders for a couple of quid off ebay, is it still in agreement that whips are the way to go? Only used whips so far so just wanna check 

I'd say whips are better by far, purely because you get double the attacks from them. Spears are damage 2, but only on the charge IIRC. 

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3 hours ago, docofallplagues said:

Managed to snag a unit of hellstriders for a couple of quid off ebay, is it still in agreement that whips are the way to go? Only used whips so far so just wanna check 

Whips are horrible to transport and not break in game but they are currently a bit better than claws although I suspect comes winter faq time we ll be back to claw being the cheaper and therefore the better option

 

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If you know anyone with a lot of DoK Witch Aelves they may well have a lot of spare whips which are considerably shorter and less fragile than the proper Hellstrider ones.

That said I find my Hellstriders are very rarely charging anything to activate the weapon bonus in any case, so choice of loadout probably doesn't matter all that much, really.

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