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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


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so moving some things around.

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Invaders Host
- Grand Strategy: None Chosen
- Triumphs:
Be'Lakor, the Dark Master (360)
Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (265)
- General
- Command Trait: Skin-taker
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Lord of Pain (155)
- Host Option: General
11 x Blissbarb Archers (180)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (230)
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (370)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Blissbarb Seekers (220)

Total: 1940 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110
Drops: 8
 

At least some units have better saves here, but I do feel i'm on the low end of heroes. Maybe I could remove belakor for a twin and another hero?

 

Another idea could be 

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Invaders Host
- Grand Strategy: None Chosen
- Triumphs:
Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (265)
- General
- Command Trait: Skin-taker
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Lord of Pain (155)
- Host Option: General
The Masque (135)
11 x Blissbarb Archers (180)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (230)
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (370)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Blissbarb Seekers (220)

Total: 1715 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 101
Drops: 8
 but I have 285 points left over. Either twin/exalted chariot/sigvald could fit in here or 2x5 myrmadesh. 

Edited by Carnith
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2 hours ago, Carnith said:

so moving some things around.

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Invaders Host
- Grand Strategy: None Chosen
- Triumphs:
Be'Lakor, the Dark Master (360)
Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (265)
- General
- Command Trait: Skin-taker
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Lord of Pain (155)
- Host Option: General
11 x Blissbarb Archers (180)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (230)
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (370)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Blissbarb Seekers (220)

Total: 1940 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110
Drops: 8
 

At least some units have better saves here, but I do feel i'm on the low end of heroes. Maybe I could remove belakor for a twin and another hero?

 

Another idea could be 

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Invaders Host
- Grand Strategy: None Chosen
- Triumphs:
Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (265)
- General
- Command Trait: Skin-taker
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Lord of Pain (155)
- Host Option: General
The Masque (135)
11 x Blissbarb Archers (180)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (230)
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (370)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Blissbarb Seekers (220)

Total: 1715 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 101
Drops: 8
 but I have 285 points left over. Either twin/exalted chariot/sigvald could fit in here or 2x5 myrmadesh. 

I would add either Synessa or another exalted chariot with a small preference for Synessa as she s a monster. I think Sigvald is too slow outside of lurid haze and Dexcessa seem to always die too early

 

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5 minutes ago, azdimy said:

I would add either Synessa or another exalted chariot with a small preference for Synessa as she s a monster. I think Sigvald is too slow outside of lurid haze and Dexcessa seem to always die too early

 

Another Chariot could be good. But I'll give Synessa another try. 

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Ran this three times today - 


Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Godseekers Host
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (265)*
- General
- Command Trait: Speed-chaser
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Glutos Orscollion, Lord of Gluttony (475)
- Lore of Pain and Pleasure: Battle Rapture
Synessa, The Voice of Slaanesh (260)*
Infernal Enrapturess, Herald of Slaanesh (140)*
Be'Lakor, the Dark Master (360)
- Allies

Battleline
11 x Blissbarb Archers (180)*
11 x Blissbarb Archers (180)*
1 x Seeker Chariots (130)*

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 360 / 400
Wounds: 84
Drops: 3

 

Got a win vs. LRL with Teclis and a 20 block of sentinels after he handed me a shot at a double, with Be'lakor shutting out the sentinels from being able to harass me turn 1.  Teclis also obligingly showered me with DP, because elves are delicious or something?  I got the double, pinned him in his deployment zone and put together a commanding lead very quickly.

Second game was vs. Soulblight with Nagash, which went ok.  I ended up losing, but afterwards during the discussion of the game, determined that it was due to play errors - had I made different decisions at the start of my last turn, I could have grabbed an insurmountable lead and won.  

Third game was hard fought vs. very tough STD, which ended up in a tie.

In general, it was a very good day.

 

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On 8/29/2021 at 5:17 AM, LeonBox said:

image.png.ffe08cfffd21ec17f9cd0073186fbff9.png

According to Goonhammer, our army is trash tier. 

AoS_Win_Rates_GT_Only_8-2021.png

AoS_Podiums_8-2021.png

I didn't think things were quite so bad, but then again I'm not a tournament player. 

 

Take a look at this Metawatch stat.

Overall, it does seem that for a newly updated faction, Hedonites are struggling, at least competitively. My own personal experience in casual games has been pretty good, although I would like to field more Painbringers, Slickblades and especially Slaangors.

 

336326922_WhatsAppImage2021-08-23at10_39_02.jpeg.bb07b3d8d1c80cba4cff8fdfa3145c33.jpeg

Edited by Sorrow
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Going to try this list in the coming days. It s full of debuffs and glutos w excess of violence is the hard hitter in the list

Went godseekers for the +1 charge for summoned units (+2 with cogs) but i am unsure on this one as my general is not meant to charge but debuff w slothful stupor and excess of violence glutos

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Godseekers Host
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
Triumphs: Inspired
Infernal Enrapturess, Herald of Slaanesh (140)
Keeper of Secrets (420)
- General
- Sinistrous Hand
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Slothful Stupor
Glutos (475)
Spell: battle rapture
 Be'Lakor, the Dark Master (360)
- Allies
11 x blissbarb archers (180)
5 x hellstriders (135)
5 x hellstriders(135)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Chronomantic Cogs (45)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 360 / 400
Wounds: 82
Drops: 3
Battleregiment

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All of the data for the Slaanesh survey is ready. I would like to share it but there's one thing that's bugging me that I would really like to do but I am just drawing a blank on how to do it.

I'd like to run a statistical test to see if the number of people who voted "is significantly overpointed" on a particular model differs significantly from the mean. This would allow us to show which units have the most significant numbers of people thinking they are overcosted. This could also be ran the other way with undercosted, but just looking at the data we have too few people who voted undercosted. 

It's been a very long time since I've used much besides a two sampled t test, so I thought a one sampled one might work before realising it wouldn't as it would need to look for a mean to compare to the other mean. I'm certain it's an easy test I should be using but it's just slipping my mind. 

If I were to take a guess, I'd imagine I would just need to calculate Z scores using Z = \frac{x - \mu}{\sigma} which would calculate how many standard deviations the raw score is above or below the mean score. It is 1am so there's a good chance I'm missing something obvious, but the mean number of people who answered "too expensive" per question is (μ) 141.15625, σ: 51.506740684473, and the score for Sigvald is (X) 77

So Sigvald's Z score should be Z = -1.24559.

So that's all well and good, but if I'm remembering correctly I'll need to consult the Z score table to show significance (we'll say at the 0.05 level, but may go to 0.1 if nothing/very little is significant) which is a pain to read through. In this example:

The P-Value is .106566.

The result is not significant at p < .05.

Before I do that, I don't suppose there are any statisticians reading who can spot any obvious errors I've just made in my above assumption? I'm almost certain there'll be a major one.

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15 hours ago, azdimy said:

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Godseekers Host
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
Triumphs: Inspired
Infernal Enrapturess, Herald of Slaanesh (140)
Keeper of Secrets (420)
- General
- Sinistrous Hand
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Slothful Stupor
Glutos (475)
Spell: battle rapture
 Be'Lakor, the Dark Master (360)
- Allies
11 x blissbarb archers (180)
5 x hellstriders (135)
5 x hellstriders(135)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Chronomantic Cogs (45)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 360 / 400
Wounds: 82
Drops: 3
Battleregiment

Okay. I think Glutos is super nize for Buff/debuff, a TANK but no "Hitter". His Output is way to low.

If u want to push him a littel bit more u need a "Reroll Hits of 1"

Bela is Always nize. I think he is way too cheap. Why u have the USpellportal and Master of Magic with u ?!?!

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@ibel @azdimy Not sure I fully agree there. I think for the points outlay Glutos shouldn't go into your list purely for his offensive output as there are better choices on a points:damage ratio, but it's worth pointing out that on average he out-performs Slickblade Seekers for example so he is one of our better options for things like the Keeper's Command Ability, but I agree it is for his tankiness, debuff and general holding the centre that he should go into lists primarily. Twinsouls outperform him (although not against 2+ saves) and the obvious concern with him is his damage drops off as he tanks stuff for you but he has decent access to healing and his Command Ability stacks nicely with the Keeper to get him some big healing when timed well. 

I think the big concern I'd have if using your list @azdimy is that Glutos is having to do a lot of the heavy lifting and I'd be tempted to look at ways of sharing some of that workload (especially when it comes to dealing with large units etc) but perhaps your summoning can do some of that for you. However, you do have multiple ways to shut things down in your opponent’s army and perhaps that will allow a greater level of tankiness and control play. 

I do wonder if you could perhaps get more leverage out of some different spells though. Particularly the Endless Spells maybe something like Wheels of Excruciation for helping clear some numbers or Dread Visage for the Always Strikes Last and helping maximise your output in key combats. 

Either way curious to hear how you get on with the list. It certainly has a fun Big Hero-hammer look to it! 🙂

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Okay, so here is the initial post for the survey, including conclusion and results :)

You can find the full document here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1quNymPJ4G7IWBGZqfxjklNbllD2mGsQzP3cSOtA_ErI/edit?usp=sharing

---

Hedonites of Slaanesh battletome survey

Overall, there were 281 participants, and 91 comments (which will be included in the bottom of these stats). The comments may well be the most insightful part so I would recommend reading them - offensive or obviously ‘trollish’ comments have been omitted.

While there will be an inherent bias in these answers, considering that this can be an emotionally charged discussion, but it is important to note that not all responses are 100% “this unit is too expensive” and that this should be viewed as a guide to some initially gentle touches. Bias or not, if usually only 50% of people say a unit is too expensive, but for one particular unit it is 85% then there is a higher chance that this is a ‘problem’ unit. I have employed the use of Z values to look into this in more detail. 

Mean number of people who responded “X Unit is too highly costed”

While I will include the stats for every question, I believe it would be useful to give some sort of guidance to what the perceived ‘problem’ units are, and to do that I will calculate the Z value “X unit is too highly costed” differs significantly from the mean number of people answering “X unit is too highly costed”. The Z value looks at the number of standard deviations an individual score is above or below the mean. This does not mean that these ‘significant’ units are actually problems (or that other units are), but rather it aims to give a bit of a steer on what to look at first and also aims to control slightly for the bias that will be inherent to surveys like this. 

Note, not every question got 281 answers.

The reason this just looks at “too highly costed” rather than “too cheaply costed” is because there isn’t a single unit where the highest voted answer is “too cheaply costed”.

The average number of people who answered “X unit is too highly costed” for every unit is: 141.15625, Standard Deviation, σ: 51.506740684473

The formula for a Z value is z = (x-μ)/σ, where x is the raw score, μ is the population mean, and σ is the population standard deviation.

Ranked Z values

I have ranked the Z values calculated from the below questions in order to show the most deviating scores. The more the score deviated from the mean (141.15625), the higher the Z value (a negative value means the score deviated below the mean). 

 

* Significant at 0.1 level, ** Significant at 0.05 level

Unit name

Z value

Slaangors

1.93846**

Keeper of Secrets

1.8608**

Blissbarb Archers

1.82197**

Daemonettes

1.41426*

Shalaxi Helbane

1.41426*

Myrmadesh Painbringers

1.20069

Blissbarb seekers

0.96771

Symbaresh Twinsouls

0.90947

Slickblade Seekers

0.83181

Fiends of Slaanesh

0.67649

Shardspeaker of Slaanesh

0.36585

Contorted Epitome

0.34644

Glutos Orscollion, Lord of Gluttony

0.07463

Infernal enrapturess

-0.02245

Lord of Pain

-0.06128

Bladebringer, Herald on Hellflayer

-0.43016

Hellflayer

-0.48841

Syll’Esske, the Vengeful Allegiance

-0.48841

Exalted Chariot

-0.52724

Wheels of Excruciation

-0.52724

Bladebringer, Herald on Seeker Chariot

-0.54665

Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot

-0.56607

Seekers of Slaanesh

-0.64373

Viceleader, Herald of Slaanesh

-0.70197

Mesmerising Mirror

-0.81846

Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh

-0.81846

Dexcessa, the Talon of Slaanesh

-0.95436

Dreadful Visage

-1.07085

Synessa, the Voice of Slaanesh

-1.14851

Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh

-1.24559

The Masque of Slaanesh

-1.30383

Hellstriders of Slaanesh

-1.45915*

 

With these scores in mind, I would recommend a careful look at all positive values including those that are not significant, but to pay special attention to those which are significant at the 0.1 level (Daemonettes, Shalaxi Helbane) and have a deep look at those significant at the 0.05 level (Slaangor Fiendbloods, Keeper of Secrets, Blissbarb Archers). 

Conclusion

Overall, there is a neutral to negative view of the battletome, with the majority of people saying they like the rules (60.5%) but also a larger majority saying they believe the battletome is below the average quality compared to other battletomes (66.5%) and a significant majority (88.6%) believing the majority of units are overcosted. 

Of the units people are most concerned about points-wise, Slaangors, the Keeper of Secrets, and Blissbarb Archers have highly significant numbers of people believing they are overcosted (P < 0.05), and the Daemonettes and Shalaxi Helbane are thought of as significantly overcosted (P < 0.1). I believe that these units should have another look over as there is a low probability (sub 5% and sub 10% respectively) that these units were considered overcosted due to chance, meaning that these are the units that drew the most powerful reaction from survey answers. No units had the answer “No I think they are too cheaply costed” as a majority. 

While it is expected (if not confirmed) that the units are priced so highly due to the army’s powerful ability to summon, it may be worth revising this or at least giving it another think over as Slaanesh players and opponents alike believe many of the points are too high regardless. Looking at some of the comments, some would prefer summoning to get worse and points to get lower, or for Slaanesh units not to pay for it at all. 

On the topic of summoning, 8.2% of people believe that it should be the main ‘theme’ in a Slaanesh army, though 38.1% of people say they like it when not asked about it specifically, and 46.6% of people like it when asked about it specifically (compared to 45.2% of people disliking it in some capacity). Overall, summoning is a controversial part of the battletome and, looking at these stats, I think it would be beneficial for the focus to be moved from summoning to another part of the faction’s theme. 

In addition to points and summoning, there was also a call for a rewrite on some warscrolls. The most called for was Slaangors, when not asked about them specifically 73% of people liked the idea of them getting a rewrite, and when asked specifically 76.3% of people wanted them to get a rewrite over a points adjustment. Other notable calls for a rewrite, 45.2% of respondents wanted to see a rewrite of the Shalaxi Helbane warscroll. 

From a more financial/popularity perspective, 64.7% of respondents have said that the points costs have negatively affected their purchases on Slaanesh models, with 22.4% of people saying they haven’t bought anything for Slaanesh because of the points costs but would have otherwise, and 42.3% saying they have bought some but would have bought more if not for the points.  

Of the positives of the book, the most popular part of the book was the innate speed of the army, with 62.3% of people saying they liked this aspect of the book. In addition, the other liked parts was the frequency of rend in the faction (45.2%) and the new mechanics of Depravity Points though not necessarily the summoning (45.2%). 

When asked about what the preferred theme of a Slaanesh battletome should be, the responses were mixed but the highest one was “a finesse playstyle” (31%), followed by “speed” at 23.8%.

Looking to the future, a number of responses were given to what they would like to see in the future. The most popular of these requests is a rewrite to the Slaangor warscroll, with 70.8% of people asking for this. Other popular requests included “More support within the allegiance abilities for mortal only armies” (50.2%), “Synessa getting an extra spell” (54.1%), “An alternative way of using depravity points” (48%), “More synergies available” (48.4%), “More hosts/host options to theme an army around” (47%), and “An expanded mortal spell lore” (44.8%). While many of these options may be a struggle to include quickly, I think it would be fantastic if they could be included in the next battletome or in supplementary books (such as Wrath of the Everchosen) or a Tome Celestial.

Overall, I think that there is a good base for future rules in this battletome, but it faces two major issues - the first is oppressive points costs, with some players feeling as if they are restricted in list building. The second is that the tome feels a bit bare bones - it’s a good foundation, but there’s not much meat to get into with lists; e.g. there are very few synergies or combos, the hosts give very minor bonuses, the daemon spell lore is multiple ways to do mortal wounds and the mortal spell lore is weak and very sparse. That said, with a few tweaks (hopefully using some of these answers as a guide) I think that the book could be fantastic and I fully appreciate that the previous battletome was a bit too strong as so a lot of effort had to be spent on toning it down. 

Finally, to move away from the survey for a moment, Slaanesh is not performing particularly well at a tournament level. See below: 

 

n-HCKRsqqH0Rf0i9YJH0_oepyA7uQe7nvsKBFJhtWgMjfVRuL9gRgeGqmMY7E1tbJl1B0XzI_sBvCl5-km6IB5nL3tjFaJT_p_TfIDnf7z4eAwtSkYtf38jzZdRKX2XkcXispQ8=s0

 

While not the lowest win percentage, a 36% win rate is poor and hopefully leads some credence to the idea that the summoning doesn’t need as much of a points buffer to keep it under control. 

 

With the fan response being overwhelmingly in favour of reducing points costs and tournament data showing Slaanesh is well below the average win rate of factions in tournaments, I believe this is a good argument to having a rethink of the points, and I am certain many Slaanesh fans would appreciate positive changes being made to both points and rules updates in the future. 

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5 hours ago, ibel said:

Okay. I think Glutos is super nize for Buff/debuff, a TANK but no "Hitter". His Output is way to low.

If u want to push him a littel bit more u need a "Reroll Hits of 1"

Bela is Always nize. I think he is way too cheap. Why u have the USpellportal and Master of Magic with u ?!?!

Glutos hits harder than a keeper and going twice he ll do about 20 wounds to a 4+ save while tanking

He can pretty safely cast metamorphosis on himself to get monstruous actions.

Umbral spell portal and master of magic are for the keeper to cast slothful stupor on the opponent key heroes. In addition to be'lakor and the crippling famishment spell from glutos. There s enough spell/abilities to shutdown the opponent key units and letting me pick my fights. Good shout on acquiescence, I wish it was a lore spell that we could choose rather than a warscroll spell on heralds only but I ll summon 1 early if I can with hysterical frenzy to deal with hordes

In terms of turn order ideally my opponent let me go first (they always do), take the double turn on battleround 2 with be'lakor dark master ability on them for 2 turns and a bunch of other debuffs and I can double turn back  comes battleround 3

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I'm really shocked on people's perception of Blissbarb Archers (Re:Survey).  They're consistently one of my highest performing units turn 1-2, capable of doing real work and fueling my DP engine for the critical early game.  If I need a squishy target dead, a buff or two on them gets that done for me. 

They feel extremely worth the 180 points to me, as they feel like they'd be really good at 140 or so (which is essentially their cost before tax - clearly they're not better than sentinels at 150, but that's also clearly not a fair comparison since sentinels also generally aren't helping summon).

Of all the units I run, Blissbarbs are one of the units that clearly adds more value in summoning than they pay in tax for summoning (30-50 points).

I dont feel like they're even in the same hemisphere of cost issues as Slaangors, Keepers, or Daemonettes.  They're extremely synergistic with the armies mechanics, and it'd shown repeatedly for me in actual play. 

Edited by KrispyXIV
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There's definitely some interesting findings. As I expected there are quite a few I don't agree with but like @KrispyXIV I'm particularly surprised by Blissbarbs as agree they're a real staple of my lists.

I think the big challenge is most perception of points costs is based on what other factions get for less and that's not always a great indicator because it doesn't mean that other unit is correctly costed or take into account the value of a unit within a faction. In hindsight would be great if we had a metric for how many collective games this opinion is based on as still think from a lot of the discussions on here that there aren't that many games going on and people are still getting their heads around Battle Tactics and the new battleplans which ought to be the context for the value of units.

Ultimately there's a concern about the army clearly so it needs some tweaking - which points wise will come in time. To my mind the biggest concern is stuff like Slaangor (who might get fixed if BoC get some attention) and Shalaxi (who probably won't be fixed without a new book) as the intent of the mini isn't clear or doesn't play out in practice and points are unlikely to compensate well enough to fix. 

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On 8/28/2021 at 8:17 PM, LeonBox said:

According to Goonhammer, our army is trash tier. 

I didn't think things were quite so bad, but then again I'm not a tournament player. 

Goonhammer at the start of 9th ed 40k decried Orks as terrible,... then Orks went on to dominate the tournament scene for months if not nearly a year?  I don't follow 40k that closely but I play Orks.  

Goonhammer is like,.. some sort of Stocks/Dr Oz tv show where strong comments drive clicks more than thorough thoughtful articles.  They've been,.. okay at best commenting on AoS.  And in 40k a lot derives from fast article turnaround about tournaments results.  

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7 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Goonhammer at the start of 9th ed 40k decried Orks as terrible,... then Orks went on to dominate the tournament scene for months if not nearly a year?  I don't follow 40k that closely but I play Orks.  

Goonhammer is like,.. some sort of Stocks/Dr Oz tv show where strong comments drive clicks more than thorough thoughtful articles.  They've been,.. okay at best commenting on AoS.  And in 40k a lot derives from fast article turnaround about tournaments results.  

Fair, I've previously only been peripherally aware of them. Obviously I play a lot of Slaanesh (almost exclusively; I have a Tzeentch army but prefer Slaanesh's playstyle) and I don't particularly feel like we're super weak, even when playing against T1 armies like LRL. 

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Sry i can`t agree. Against many T1 Armys like LRL, Seraphons, KO i did`nt ever see a Hedonit Army win.

 

Maybe a super early beginner (let`s say a noob) is playing a T1 Army like that. But if my Opponent know how her/his Fraction (KO or Seras) i didnt see a Chance of winning. Maybe with the biggest dice luck u can ever get.

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1 hour ago, ibel said:

Sry i can`t agree. Against many T1 Armys like LRL, Seraphons, KO i did`nt ever see a Hedonit Army win.

 

Maybe a super early beginner (let`s say a noob) is playing a T1 Army like that. But if my Opponent know how her/his Fraction (KO or Seras) i didnt see a Chance of winning. Maybe with the biggest dice luck u can ever get.

I haven't played against KO or Seraphons so I can't comment I'm afraid, but I can definitely see both being huge challenges as we're weak to both shooting and magic. 

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On 8/31/2021 at 3:12 PM, Popisdead said:

Goonhammer at the start of 9th ed 40k decried Orks as terrible,... then Orks went on to dominate the tournament scene for months if not nearly a year?  I don't follow 40k that closely but I play Orks.  

Goonhammer is like,.. some sort of Stocks/Dr Oz tv show where strong comments drive clicks more than thorough thoughtful articles.  They've been,.. okay at best commenting on AoS.  And in 40k a lot derives from fast article turnaround about tournaments results.  

...huh?

Sororitas Bloody Rose, Daemon Monster Mash (Keepers), Eradicator Marine Spam, Necron Silver Tide, and Harlequins were the early boogie men of 9E. In no way were Orks bad but I don't recall them being labeled trash only to present some dominant force on the scene. 

Goonhammer does have problems but I don't recall this being the case at all. Certainly not for years. 

 

Played a casual game at 1k against a newer player. List was 

Synessa + Syll'esske

Blissbarb Archers + Hellstriders 

Blissbarb Seekers

vs

Eidolon + Akhelian King

3 Morsarr + 10 Thralls

Allopex

 

Went 2nd. Positioned carefully so that he would need massive charge and advance rolls in turn 2 if double failed. I did get the double. Moced forward and Pavane + the Blissbarbs murdered the Eidolon. Opponent felt really dejected by this but I assured him to keep playing.

He doubled in response and tore through the entire army minus Syll'esske. Killed the Thralls and 1 Eel in the fight back but infamous turn 3 double for Idoneth was my doom. 

Closest thing to fun I have had. If I had the chance to take a turn I cold have retreated and screened out Synessa with Daemonettes. But due to the gargantuan threat range of his run and charge on turn 2, I wasn't able to even attempt to play the objective. 

Idoneth feels like a really powerful match up as they are faster than us thanks to flight letting them take shortcuts. 1000 is also agonizing as we don't have any hope of taking something like Gluttos, Keeper, or Bel'akor to help anchor us early game. 

Casual 1000 point game so I shouldn't be sweaty. Opponent had a lot of fun and learned a lesson about playing "on the backfoot," lol...

 

Edit:

Gluttos and Blissbarb Archers are overcosted. That doesn't mean they need a drastic change. They are still mandatory inclusions because they offer invaluable unique options for our army. 

15 points off Gluttos and 10 off Blissbarbs would put them into a healthy catgegory. Same as the Exalted Seekers that need a 5 or 10 point reduction, same as Twinsouls and Painbringers that need 5 point reductions. 

The fact that Keepers, Shalaxi, Daemonettes, Fiends, Contorted Epitome (I'll die on this hill; beinf nearly the cost of Sigvald is appalling) and Slangors are so grossly overcosted that people are recoiling at the idea of "I get some use out of these units, why would we nerf their points?" Is genuinely a fantastic example of how sadly warped and overskewed our points costs are.

That said, thanks Enoby for the work of cataloging all the data.

Edited by Nasrod
Thoughts on points following Enoby report
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On 8/30/2021 at 8:13 PM, Enoby said:

All of the data for the Slaanesh survey is ready. I would like to share it but there's one thing that's bugging me that I would really like to do but I am just drawing a blank on how to do it.

I'd like to run a statistical test to see if the number of people who voted "is significantly overpointed" on a particular model differs significantly from the mean. This would allow us to show which units have the most significant numbers of people thinking they are overcosted. This could also be ran the other way with undercosted, but just looking at the data we have too few people who voted undercosted. 

It's been a very long time since I've used much besides a two sampled t test, so I thought a one sampled one might work before realising it wouldn't as it would need to look for a mean to compare to the other mean. I'm certain it's an easy test I should be using but it's just slipping my mind. 

If I were to take a guess, I'd imagine I would just need to calculate Z scores using Z = \frac{x - \mu}{\sigma} which would calculate how many standard deviations the raw score is above or below the mean score. It is 1am so there's a good chance I'm missing something obvious, but the mean number of people who answered "too expensive" per question is (μ) 141.15625, σ: 51.506740684473, and the score for Sigvald is (X) 77

So Sigvald's Z score should be Z = -1.24559.

So that's all well and good, but if I'm remembering correctly I'll need to consult the Z score table to show significance (we'll say at the 0.05 level, but may go to 0.1 if nothing/very little is significant) which is a pain to read through. In this example:

The P-Value is .106566.

The result is not significant at p < .05.

Before I do that, I don't suppose there are any statisticians reading who can spot any obvious errors I've just made in my above assumption? I'm almost certain there'll be a major one.

Amazing work, thanks!

Edited by Rivener
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