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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


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50 minutes ago, azdimy said:

Didn t see anything on twitch non 40k the whole we unfortunately .

I got the list from someone that was at the event

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Lurid Haze Invaders Host (Host of Chaos)
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh (265)*
- Host Option: General
Keeper of Secrets (420)*
- Sinistrous Hand
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Slothful Stupor
Lord of Pain (155)*
- General
- Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
- Artefact: Oil of Exultation
Glutos Orscollion, Lord of Gluttony (475)**
- Lore of Pain and Pleasure: Dark Delusions
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)*
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)**
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)**
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)**
*Warlord
**Battle Regiment

Total: 1955 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 83
Drops: 5

Thanks very much for the list :)

What I really find interesting here is the use of the Painbringers and the KoS successfully. I would assume the KoS was used in conjunction with Sigvald to assassinate important targets, but many on here have found them unreliable for their points. It's good to know they can work, and I wonder if they had any tricks in making them work. 

The Painbringers are the most interesting to me - especially as they could have turned one of the units into 5 Twinsouls, but they chose not to. Of course, this could have been preference, especially for aesthetics, but if not I'd really like to know why and how they did as Painbringers are one of those units I'd love to use more. 

--- 

One thing I did see when searching for more info on the tournament was this Tweet - I've not included the name for obvious reasons, but it's just an interesting microcosm about the view towards Slaanesh in a competitive environment. Screenshot_20210815-233217_Twitter.jpg.d96fb83f716b63540e9b742a442162de.jpg

I'm almost 100% sure this was just a friendly joke and drawing attention to this Tweet is in no way to say "look how wrong this person is", but rather I think it's interesting that the first thought/joke about bringing Slaanesh to a tournament is that it's a risky option very likely to land you at the bottom tables. Obviously this wasn't actually the case in this tournament, but I think it's what I've seen a lot when it comes to the discussion of Slaanesh. You see a YouTube video and someone is commenting "they lost as soon as they brought Slaanesh", you see Twitter threads about how Slaanesh is 'bin guy' at their worst, and a few times when Slaanesh has done well people try to look for excuses as to how the opponents had to be bad or they just got lucky, rather than looking into the why the list may have just worked. 

That's not to say the book is perfect - it's not by any stretch, and I agree with many if not most of the criticisms towards the book in at least some way. I would really like to see more work put into the next iteration of Slaanesh and to try and for the rules team to take on some of the suggestions of fans, and I don't think there's any excuse for warscrolls like the Slaangor. However, I'm also really against this internet zeitgeist where Slaanesh is the worst book to have ever come out and should only be used in casual games - I think a lot of people (though not necessarily on this thread) hold themselves back with the idea that the Slaanesh is helplessly bad. Any loss is because the book is bad, rather than because they played poorly. 

Also, I'm still a bit sore by the first two terrible battletome battlereports from Mini Wargaming and Dark Artisan where they played Slaanesh terribly and then said the battletome was a load of rubbish :P

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1 hour ago, azdimy said:

Didn t see anything on twitch non 40k the whole we unfortunately .

I got the list from someone that was at the event

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Lurid Haze Invaders Host (Host of Chaos)
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh (265)*
- Host Option: General
Keeper of Secrets (420)*
- Sinistrous Hand
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Slothful Stupor
Lord of Pain (155)*
- General
- Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
- Artefact: Oil of Exultation
Glutos Orscollion, Lord of Gluttony (475)**
- Lore of Pain and Pleasure: Dark Delusions
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)*
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)**
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)**
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (160)**
*Warlord
**Battle Regiment

Total: 1955 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 83
Drops: 5

The 4x Painbringers are interesting to see - I suspected the math indicated that their defenses weren't hit as hard as everyone was worried about, and their "MW in addition" would be extremely valuable in 3e.  

The KOS on the table is interesting as well - as noted elsewhere, I assume it was for combing with Sigvald/Glutos.  

I'd be interested to see how it played. 

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Yeah, the maths on re-rolls versus +1 are much more nuanced than I originally thought when it comes to saving throws, and are a part of why it seems like Myrmidesh are still in a good spot. 

A good example of this is Archaon. Before, Oracular Visions gave him re-roll saves for a 3+ re-rolling. Now, it gives him +1 - a bit weaker, until you start applying other save bonuses from Mystic Shield and one out of All Out Defence and the Lurid Haze command. Oracular Visions gives him a 2+ save but he'll still fall victim to Rend. However, pair it up with another +1 and he suddenly has a 2+ ignoring -1 Rend, and slap another on and he's saving on a 2+ ignoring -2 Rend. Getting to a 2+ re-rolling was feasible with Lurid Haze in 2.0, but funnily enough once you start accounting for Rend the 2+ ignoring up to -2 Rend works out better than the 2+ re-rolling. In context, this ends up being much stronger in almost all cases outside of massed zero Rend attacks (though good luck killing a regenerating 2+ save model that way) because you pretty much negate what used to be the best way to handle Archaon.

Just to show what I mean, my Archaon died twice in five games I played at the last 2.0 GT I attended, and I was running Syll'Esskan Host (so no +1 save) and had a Sorcerer Lord for Oracular Visions and Daemonic Power. The 3+ re-rolling was extremely tough, but what ended up killing him in those two games were massed Rend 1 and 2 attacks from Idoneth (Morsarr Guard did most of the damage) and Ironjawz (Brutes and Gore-Gruntas over time.) If it had been a 3.0 tournament and I had access to a potential +3 to saves (+2 of which are guaranteed) the math changes dramatically as those Morsarr with their plethora of Rend 2 Damage 2 attacks get stuck against unmodified 2+ saves, and the Ironjawz list I faced fares even worse. Lots of things would have been different obviously, but being able to straight up save on a 2+ negating anything short of Rend -3 (which is almost entirely absent from the game anyway) really starts to make a model like Archaon (who is effective Bravery 12 for Heroic Recovery, and has his own innate D3 heal plus access to a D3 heal spell) seem downright impossible to shift in many matchups. It's a big reason why monsters (as you can deny a +1 via a Roar) and magic defence (to deny the +1 from Mystic Shield) are super important to have when fighting models like Archaon. 

Basically, save stacking negating modifiers in some cases is much stronger than re-rolling saves, and I suspect that's part of why Myrmidesh are still being rated highly despite myself and others writing off that particular change as a net negative - they can save on a 3+ ignoring up to -2 Rend if you absolutely need them to hold something up, and not a lot of Battleline units can claim to do that and output respectable damage with a splash of mortal wounds. 

Edited by Jaskier
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On 8/13/2021 at 5:42 PM, Enoby said:

Out of the following warscrolls, please tick all you feel you would like to have a warscroll tweek or rewrite 

@Enoby little bit late to the party on this. Questions all look good but there's a small typo here -- this should be "tweak". 

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On 8/10/2021 at 3:55 PM, Sorrow said:

That would be a very good Shalaxi, quite lore correct too.

Also, for my fellow Hedonites,

@AngryPanda Thoughts?

image.png.7fa50e016d5476fdb7015f252faf07be.png

My apologies for the late reply, I've recently moved into my new place and have been setting up shop. I took a look at the data, and I'm 50/50 on what to think of it. On one hand, it shows that HoS came in at close to last, proving a lot of predictions from the community. On the other hand, 23 games is a relatively small pool to come to conclusions from, and it's unknown to me what lists are, and how high the players skill levels were.

Based on my experiences since the FAQ that dropped after 3.0 was released, I starting to grow more and more confident that HoS is somewhere in the middle regarding power level. For casual play, I think we're in a good place. Playing HoS competitively would require more finesse than other armies, but I think can be done rewardingly. 

Something else to consider as well are the recent results from the Orlando, Florida tournament that was sponsored by GW. On the Hedonites of Slaanesh discord, there was a list that was posted of a Slaanesh player that brought Glutos, Sigvlad, a LoP, a KoS, and a ton of painbringers (to hold objects). There was also another list posted that incorporated Belakor that had some tournament success, although it was posted a while ago. 

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On 8/13/2021 at 5:42 AM, Enoby said:

As you're all quite active on this thread/have an interest in the survey, I thought I'd run these questions past you. These would all be in addition to the old questions, but I'm wondering about edits and additions :)

It looks great! I've read through it in detail, and the questions that most attraction my attention are the additions of new hosts under "What would you like to see most in a supplement book or tome celestial (tick all that apply)."

Perhaps after answering this question, there could be an open-ended question that allows the survey taker to elaborate? If I were to elaborate, I'd be pretty interested in seeing a Glutos or Sigvlad specific host that uses his famed mirror guard.  

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3 hours ago, AngryPanda said:

It looks great! I've read through it in detail, and the questions that most attraction my attention are the additions of new hosts under "What would you like to see most in a supplement book or tome celestial (tick all that apply)."

Perhaps after answering this question, there could be an open-ended question that allows the survey taker to elaborate? If I were to elaborate, I'd be pretty interested in seeing a Glutos or Sigvlad specific host that uses his famed mirror guard.  

You're definitely correct that leaving it an open question would be really useful in this case, and I debated with myself about doing it, but upon reflection of the last survey a lot of the "other" answers watered down the stats (despite adding a richness to the discussion). 

If all of the "other" answers were read by the rules team (though there were hundreds in total), I'd be for it 100%. My worry is the rules team only have the time to look at the immediately obvious stats.

To give an example, in the old survey there was a question about "how do you feel about the rules regardless of points cost", which was meant to assess people's perception of the quality of the rules. I added an "other" answer for this. Despite people often complaining on the forum about poor rules quality, about 61% of people said they liked or strongly liked the rules. However almost all of the "other" responses were negative and about how much they didn't like the rules, and this wasn't immediately obvious from a glance at the pie chart which likely looked more positive than it was, so I'm cautious more "other" options could end up with similar answers getting diluted and so less noticed. This was the same for "how do you feel about the 2021 battletome compared to the 2019 one."

I'll likely add three new answers to cover different ideas a bit better, while still having them easily viewable:

  • None of the above, I want no additions

  • None of the above, I want different additions (add details in the final question)

  • Some of the above, and also ones unmentioned (add details in the final question)

With the final question being "Any other comments", hopefully meaning all ideas can be shared without stats dilution. 

If we're really lucky, as the previous Slaanesh writer left GW, another rules writer may see all of this and make it their mission to make the best Slaanesh book ever, when it comes around again :P

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22 minutes ago, plavski said:

A Slaanesh list came 8th of 94 at Summer Slaughter, going 4/0/1

image.png.0d81228970bf4c4e533c6ee446833314.png

Thanks for the list :) Very interesting to see how different it is from the previous list - in fact, they only share one unit in Sigvald. I'm happy to see that we don't appear to be a one trick pony army.

Even in casual games, I've seen more people have a better time with our army. 

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48 minutes ago, Sorrow said:

Honestly, if only GW could drop the cost of Slickblades and Painbringers and rewrite Slaangors, I would call our faction perfect.

 

I reckon, thankfully, these are relatively easy changes to see. I can imagine we may see slight drops this December, and I think we could see a Slaangor rewrite in the next campaign book we're in.

One thing to look forward to as a Slaanesh player is that our narrative arc is still going so we're likely to get some attention when it begins to ramp up again (whether as a campaign book or just a new battletome). We'll likely not get another massive release, but I can see more work being put into the next battletome if we take our place as 'the big bad'. 

That said, it wouldn't be totally crazy/unthinkable if we were in the starter set in AoS 4e, depending on what road the story takes.

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25 minutes ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the army book went back to it's old points in the next update. It would be annoying as hell that it was done that way but I think overall things would be in a much better spot then. 

God I hope not.   I shelved my DoK because I couldn't not win with them, and I'm still winning/tieing more than losing with my Slaanesh - and not just against players as new as I am,  against players that have years more experience than me including frequent games in tournaments and events. 

I more or less destroyed a Sylvaneth friend yesterday because they made one slip up and I was able to establish an early model count advantage that was going to spiral in my favor quickly. 

If points drop across the board to what they were in the book, I feel like I'd be right back to having a major advantage at army construction. 

Some units may need slight adjustments - but yesterday showed not one but two lists with strongly positive records at events, featuring units widely considered to be unplayably overcosted (KOS, Painbringers, Slickblades).  

While I get some folks don't like how the army plays, I think we're still early enough in the edition that we should be considering that maybe there's a reason points costs shot up and peoples playstyles and army choices need to "catch up".  As a reminder, Synessa was "terrible" initially, and now is showing up everywhere- nothing changed, except she saw play and turned out to be better than she appeared. 

Because if the army is reasonably viable now, what does it look like with what, 20% extra points to start with on the table if they rollback the 3e points hikes?  

Edited by KrispyXIV
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Finished up my Twinsouls, converted up out of spare bits from their box/elsewhere and a box of Namarti Reavers gifted from a friend. Some are definitely better than others, but on the whole I'm really happy with this unit! Plus I still have all the parts I need to build 10 Painbringers. Waste not!

sts6.jpeg

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sts10.jpeg

Edited by dicebod
Edited for higher res pictures
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12 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

God I hope not.   I shelved my DoK because I couldn't not win with them, and I'm still winning/tieing more than losing with my Slaanesh - and not just against players as new as I am,  against players that have years more experience than me including frequent games in tournaments and events. 

I more or less destroyed a Sylvaneth friend yesterday because they made one slip up and I was able to establish an early model count advantage that was going to spiral in my favor quickly. 

If points drop across the board to what they were in the book, I feel like I'd be right back to having a major advantage at army construction. 

Some units may need slight adjustments - but yesterday showed not one but two lists with strongly positive records at events, featuring units widely considered to be unplayably overcosted (KOS, Painbringers, Slickblades).  

While I get some folks don't like how the army plays, I think we're still early enough in the edition that we should be considering that maybe there's a reason points costs shot up and peoples playstyles and army choices need to "catch up".

Because if the army is reasonably viable now, what does it look like with what, 20% extra points to start with on the table if they rollback the 3e points hikes?  

Your results depend on your meta. The whole Depravity point generation is very dependent on the type of army your opponent play which is a problem. it s also one of the only mechanic that is based on things you would not be doing. Some tactics reward you for killing a unit but you gain a depravity point if you failed to kill it. They feel like pity points half the time. We re also the only army where our coalition units don t benefit from our allegiance abilities which is a shame but thei re doing it because of the point for summoning cannot be in the s2d and boc units unless they point them 8n our book

Many  deamon units: Deamonettes fiends, kos, shalaxi are overcosted with our aos 3 points. Having 1 army getting a good tournament result with a keeper does not change that

In my opinion, going back to pre aos 3 points would not make our army top tier but I doubt gw will do it. We ll probably see some small point drop 6 months at a time like they have done with other overpointed units for other battletomes and we won t get to where it needs to be

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35 minutes ago, dicebod said:

Finished up my Twinsouls, converted up out of spare bits from their box/elsewhere and a box of Namarti Reavers gifted from a friend. Some are definitely better than others, but on the whole I'm really happy with this unit! Plus I still have all the parts I need to build 10 Painbringers. Waste not!

 

Those look great, good job!

We need to see more hobby in this thread :)

Edited by Starfyre
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, plavski said:

A Slaanesh list came 8th of 94 at Summer Slaughter, going 4/0/1

image.png.0d81228970bf4c4e533c6ee446833314.png

Thanks for sharing the list :) Someone in the Whatsapp chat offered a bit of info on what they faced:

Wins vs Nurgle, Nurgle, Tzeentch, loss to DoK, win vs Deepkin (so 4 wins, 1 loss).

Tzeentch was screamers and Archaon.

The DoK list (that they lost against) was Gotrek and Morathi, and snake archers. A brutal list

Edited by Enoby
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5 minutes ago, azdimy said:

Having 1 army getting a good tournament result with a keeper does not change that

It's a red flag, though, that the belief that it's unplayably overcosted needs to be tested as opposed to assumed - especially this close to the release of a new edition, shortly after the release of a new book.  

Same with Painbringers and Slickblades.  

There was an immediate, blanket consensus that these units were massively overpriced - but people need to actually play with them and see how they do to determine if that's actually true. 

More than that, they need to be be pushed to determine if there's something being commonly missed - Keepers are clearly not a great beatstick at their cost, but is their CA potentially powerful enough to make them worth it as a support piece if you build around it?  Maybe...

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34 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

It's a red flag, though, that the belief that it's unplayably overcosted needs to be tested as opposed to assumed - especially this close to the release of a new edition, shortly after the release of a new book.  

Same with Painbringers and Slickblades.  

There was an immediate, blanket consensus that these units were massively overpriced - but people need to actually play with them and see how they do to determine if that's actually true. 

More than that, they need to be be pushed to determine if there's something being commonly missed - Keepers are clearly not a great beatstick at their cost, but is their CA potentially powerful enough to make them worth it as a support piece if you build around it?  Maybe...

It s popular yet niche case with lurid haze sigvald and a keeper as support to eliminate the main threat on turn 1. 420pts for a support piece is outrageous but waiting for the depravity to summon it won t work in that list

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Ok, I’m adjusting my Slaanesh super-friends list (cuz I don’t wanna steal someone else’s. Lol)

archaon

be’lakor

synessa

chaos sorcerer lord

3 units of Hellstriders

chronomatic cogs

1995 points. 
Hellstriders screen, Be’Lakor tells the big enemy lynchpin “sit, Booboo, sit” and Archaon and Synessa tear down targets near and far. My only regret is a lack of Sigvald. 

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2 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

Ok, I’m adjusting my Slaanesh super-friends list (cuz I don’t wanna steal someone else’s. Lol)

archaon

be’lakor

synessa

chaos sorcerer lord

3 units of Hellstriders

chronomatic cogs

1995 points. 
Hellstriders screen, Be’Lakor tells the big enemy lynchpin “sit, Booboo, sit” and Archaon and Synessa tear down targets near and far. My only regret is a lack of Sigvald. 

Looks fun, why the chaos sorcerer lord. For oracular vision on archeon? I would do the chaos lord for archeon to go twice instead since you have the 5 spare points 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, azdimy said:

Looks fun, why the chaos sorcerer lord. For oracular vision on archeon? I would do the chaos lord for archeon to go twice instead since you have the 5 spare points 

After using Archaon, I think the Sorcerer's Daemonic Power is an almost manditory spell on Archaon - he's so many points it's hard to risk a whiff. 

Speaking of, here's a dumb list I put together using Pretenders:

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Pretenders Host
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Keeper of Secrets (420)
- General
- Sinistrous Hand
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Host Option: Hunter of Godbeasts
- Spell: Slothful Stupor
The Masque (135)
Archaon the Everchosen (830)
- Lore of Slaanesh: Born of Damnation
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (115)

Battleline
5 x Hellstriders with Hellscourges (135)
5 x Hellstriders with Hellscourges (135)
5 x Hellstriders with Hellscourges (135)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60) OR Umbral Spell Portal (70)

Probably Battle Regiment Battalion.

Total: 1965 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 74
Drops: 7 (2 with Battalion)

---

Mostly I just think Pretenders is neat and I want to use it to get a universal trait + hunter of godbeasts; I can't remember if you can take enhancements on coalition units (I know they can't be the general, unsure on artifacts) but that would affect battalion choices. Regardless, a bit of a spicy tech is Slothful Stupor + Rerolling Casting. With that, I'll hopefully stand a good chance of shutting down annoying heroes like Morathi and Gotrek.  
 

I'm tied between the Spell Portal and the Lifeswarm. Neither are key, but being able to potentially say 'no' to a character on the first turn may be more useful in the long run, especially against some of our harshest counters. As you can tell, it's super model lite and so I'm going to tend towards the Battle Regiment battalion to stick everything but Archaon in to make this a 2 drop list. 

Edit: I should also say that it's easy to overlook the Pretenders depravity ability, but something important to note is the "Warmaster" ability on Archaon, which treats him as the general. The Pretenders "Warlord Supreme" says "At the end of your battleshock phase, you receive 1 depravity point if your general is within 3" of an enemy unit. At the end of your battleshock phase, you receive D3 depravity points instead of 1 if your general is within 3" of 2 or more enemy units". As Archaon is also the general and it doesn't specify "General with two command traits" or something, he'll count for this which makes it much easier and more consistent to get than normal. 

Edited by Enoby
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2 hours ago, KrispyXIV said:

God I hope not.   I shelved my DoK because I couldn't not win with them, and I'm still winning/tieing more than losing with my Slaanesh - and not just against players as new as I am,  against players that have years more experience than me including frequent games in tournaments and events. 

I more or less destroyed a Sylvaneth friend yesterday because they made one slip up and I was able to establish an early model count advantage that was going to spiral in my favor quickly. 

If points drop across the board to what they were in the book, I feel like I'd be right back to having a major advantage at army construction. 

Some units may need slight adjustments - but yesterday showed not one but two lists with strongly positive records at events, featuring units widely considered to be unplayably overcosted (KOS, Painbringers, Slickblades).  

While I get some folks don't like how the army plays, I think we're still early enough in the edition that we should be considering that maybe there's a reason points costs shot up and peoples playstyles and army choices need to "catch up".  As a reminder, Synessa was "terrible" initially, and now is showing up everywhere- nothing changed, except she saw play and turned out to be better than she appeared. 

Because if the army is reasonably viable now, what does it look like with what, 20% extra points to start with on the table if they rollback the 3e points hikes?  

35% win rate is not even close to what I call reasonably viable, it's literally the 3rd worst result in the game.

 

And before you comment on play rates, there's a reason why people who want to win tournaments aren't picking the faction.

 

I'm all for finding solutions and positivity but let's not overstate things either.

Edited by Cambyses
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