AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[TimeToWaste85]

It’s funny, when Syn came out, everybody said she wasn’t good. Now she’s in every list. 😂

[KrispyXIV]

39 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

It’s funny, when Syn came out, everybody said she wasn’t good. Now she’s in every list. 😂

I think its valid to note that a lot of elements that make her good now weren't entirely apparent previously.  

In addition to her obvious toolbox, the power of something like infinite range  Pavane of Slaanesh, which devastates "dragon" type models, skyrockets when everyone is rushing to put those sorts of profiles on the table.  

She's also a 9 wound (sub-commander qualified) Monster in a meta where Monster status matters, where she now counts as 5 models for objective camping, gained Stomp for extra offense/defense in a pinch, and applies precise reliable mortal wounds where a couple of wounds may be the difference between killing a character and that character rocketing to recovery via Heroic actions. 

In short, she gained lot from the new edition and metagame shifts. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[AngryPanda]

In my opinion, some of the problems with Slaanesh aren’t actually problems with us specifically, but are defined by larger balancing issues in the game. Teclis, similar to the OBR Petrifix Elite when they first came out, is op and probably didn’t receive the point increase that he deserved. The same can be said about Sentinels, and shooting overall.

 

Slaanesh does have transparent weaknesses, but there are numerous lists we can make within the casual setting that can go toe-to-toe with most other armies while having a good time, both for the opponent and yourself. Within a competitive setting, the issues begin to materialize more clearly; this is where the debates begin to arise on how to deal with balance.

My best answer is either going some sort of calvary-themed list that takes advantage of our high speed, high damage units, or a list that centers around the numerous named characters we have and one of our best units: Twinsouls. We also have really, really good endless spells that can be used to generate depravity while also dealing scary damage. I personally like Glutos a lot, he’s a beautiful model and is a jack-of-all-trades unit that accomplishes multiple roles (melee, debuff, magic, etc.) I see a lot of people talk about the recent twins that were released, bur don’t see as many people talk about Fatakros. Glutos is a sleeper that people have somewhat forgotten about due the point changes and disruption that the new meta has brought with it. For 475 points, he’s a decent point investment, but brings a lot of value to the table. 

 

I like to pair him with Painbringers because the models are beautiful and it’s fun to have a relatively (if not very overcosted) tanky unit act as a screen for the glutton. If I were playing competitively, I’d swap out the Painbringers for a unit of Twinsouls. From there, I’d explore what option I have. 
 

 

[Enoby]

Had a 2k point against Kruelboyz in Warclans last night; only got to the end of turn 2 and had to call it for time, but even by then I was pulling quite a bit ahead.

I won't go into detail too much and unfortunately no pictures, but my list was:

Lurid Haze 

Glutos (general 1)

Sigvald 

Lord of Pain (general 2)

Synessa (general 3) 

10 Twinsouls

11 Blissbarbs 

5 Painbringers 

1 Spellportal

1 cogs

---

Glutos was a really really good tank, despite doing no damage (he is cursed to be a pacifist), tanking a rogue idol and 10 buffed (2 damage eachs, 2s to hit and wound) arboys together for two combat phases before retreating with 6 wounds remaining. Overall, he took a lot of aggro away from my army which is all I needed. @AngryPanda I can confirm from this fight that Glutos is still very good

Sigvald killed 5 Brutes, 7 Arboyz, and one of the new Kruelboy boss heroes (on foot) without taking a single wound. For whatever reason, the orks were really impressed at him and couldn't hit for the life of them. 

Synessa was on strike and rolled two 6s for their shooting attack, but this is just very bad luck. Did 6 mortal wounds from two stomps though, which was nice. The cogs helped the casting problem thankfully, but their bad look on the shooting attack stung. They died very quickly upon being in combat for two turns (no chance to retreat due to being double turned). 

Twinsouls did 10 damage to the rogue idol even with a 3+ save and 5+ ward, and only lost 2 in return. As expected, good damage. 

Lord of Pain nearly died to Hobgrotz but killed the unit thankfully. 

Blissbarbs did good chip damage.

Painbringers were mostly holding a point; in this case, blissbarbs would have been better, but Painbringers still did 5 damage to a Kruelboyz wizard, which would have helped for round 3. 

The spell portal went off and I put Glutos's spell through it, which prevented the Idol from charging anyone but Glutos. It paid off, but I'm conscious of the points being spent on endless spells against armies with good dispelling.

Overall, I was happy with the list! 

 

[Selpharia]

Does anyone know if hellstriddr spruces have numbered pieces? Trying to assemble seekers without part numbers drove me half-mad

[Sorrow]

7 hours ago, AngryPanda said:

In my opinion, some of the problems with Slaanesh aren’t actually problems with us specifically, but are defined by larger balancing issues in the game. Teclis, similar to the OBR Petrifix Elite when they first came out, is op and probably didn’t receive the point increase that he deserved. The same can be said about Sentinels, and shooting overall.

 

Slaanesh does have transparent weaknesses, but there are numerous lists we can make within the casual setting that can go toe-to-toe with most other armies while having a good time, both for the opponent and yourself. Within a competitive setting, the issues begin to materialize more clearly; this is where the debates begin to arise on how to deal with balance.

My best answer is either going some sort of calvary-themed list that takes advantage of our high speed, high damage units, or a list that centers around the numerous named characters we have and one of our best units: Twinsouls. We also have really, really good endless spells that can be used to generate depravity while also dealing scary damage. I personally like Glutos a lot, he’s a beautiful model and is a jack-of-all-trades unit that accomplishes multiple roles (melee, debuff, magic, etc.) I see a lot of people talk about the recent twins that were released, bur don’t see as many people talk about Fatakros. Glutos is a sleeper that people have somewhat forgotten about due the point changes and disruption that the new meta has brought with it. For 475 points, he’s a decent point investment, but brings a lot of value to the table. 

 

I like to pair him with Painbringers because the models are beautiful and it’s fun to have a relatively (if not very overcosted) tanky unit act as a screen for the glutton. If I were playing competitively, I’d swap out the Painbringers for a unit of Twinsouls. From there, I’d explore what option I have. 
 

 

Might be a good idea to do one more survey in month or two.

 

[LeonBox]

5 hours ago, Enoby said:

Glutos was a really really good tank, despite doing no damage (he is cursed to be a pacifist), tanking a rogue idol and 10 buffed (2 damage eachs, 2s to hit and wound) arboys together for two combat phases before retreating with 6 wounds remaining. Overall, he took a lot of aggro away from my army which is all I needed. @AngryPanda I can confirm from this fight that Glutos is still very good

You sound like you've got very unlucky with Glutos! I've had the odd game where he just whiffs everything but I usually get decent value out of him against rank and file, where those damage 3 claw attacks really shine. He suffers for lack of rend, but this is true of all of our stuff. 

[Jaskier]

16 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Since everyone is using Synessa it seems, I'd recommend looking at bringing in a Chimera and Varanguard as they pair quite nicely with The Voice of Slaanesh Ability.

 

**actually, does anyone know how The Voice of Slaanesh ability works if I use a second or more command ability on the same friendly unit?**

Am I wrong in thinking a Chimera isn't a bad unit to ambush with Lurid Haze? The big downside I see to ambushing is that it will limit what it can threaten with its breath attack (and that's a big downside, mind) but a monster with a 14" D6 mortal wound ranged weapon that adds +2 to charges and, as you noted, is a unit that actually benefits from Synessa's infinite range commands (+1 to-hit for its nasty but inaccurate melee profile and re-roll charges look super handy) stealing an objective after a charge because it counts as 5 models doesn't seem like a bad use of one. It flies too which can be a real pain for opponents trying to screen it out. The main advantage for ambushing would be keeping the fragile thing from getting shot to pieces before it can act; would definitely be situation-dependent. 

As for the discussion regarding Synessa, the thing to keep in mind about her is that it isn't just her implicit value increasing a lot with the 3.0 meta changes; she was always a decent if uninspiring looking unit stats-wise, but critically that was paired with great utility - the value of which is always hard to judge until you've actually tried her out. In 3.0 in particular, many armies are focusing their strategy on big, flying monsters with stacked saves - the perfect targets for an infinite range Pavane. I still want them to maybe give her a bonus to cast and definitely adjust the command part of her Voice rule, but at least with Coalition units we do have some edge cases where the latter half has some neat applications. 

Also, yeah; Glutos is still very good, even with the big points hike. He might not be a monster but his unique spell is absurdly good now that units can't run and retreat, he's still a great caster, he's insanely tough, has good damage output, etc. His aura arguably isn't quite as useful as it used to be but it's still a great defensive ability. There are far, far worse ways to spend 475 points. I'd argue he went from being easily our best (in-book) unit to just one of our best units - i.e. still at or around the top of the pack, just not as big a gap between him and the rest. I think Archaon's (rightfully) stolen the limelight from him a bit, but if you want a tough centrepiece then you really can't go wrong with Glutos. 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Jaskier

[AngryPanda]

7 hours ago, Sorrow said:

Might be a good idea to do one more survey in month or two.

 

We will see, I’m going to observe a bit longer how we’re doing in the new edition. I’m still salty about my poor Painbringers being reduced to a more expensive, inferior version of chaos warriors; the +5 ward save in addition to the +1 save when taken in larger units is far superior to our weak +1 in combat. 

[Enoby]

7 hours ago, LeonBox said:

You sound like you've got very unlucky with Glutos! I've had the odd game where he just whiffs everything but I usually get decent value out of him against rank and file, where those damage 3 claw attacks really shine. He suffers for lack of rend, but this is true of all of our stuff. 

It was very odd! Loads of 1s and 2s to hit and wound, except off the Painbringer who had all of his attacks saved against. On the other hand, he got very lucky on some of his saves so it balanced out.

9 hours ago, Sorrow said:

Might be a good idea to do one more survey in month or two.

 

I've been thinking on a survey; like @AngryPanda has said, it's probably best we wait a few months, but when the time comes I think it would be good to ask a few extra questions on what people would like to see in future rules, e.g. Mortal focused rules, different uses of Depravity, more synergies and buffs. As well as ask about points on all units, not just mortals this time. 

If we're lucky, we might get a tome celestial to tide us over with some extra rules, in the same way Gloomspite got more rules to help them use trolls, squigs, and spiders more effectively. 

[whispersofblood]

19 hours ago, AngryPanda said:

In my opinion, some of the problems with Slaanesh aren’t actually problems with us specifically, but are defined by larger balancing issues in the game. Teclis, similar to the OBR Petrifix Elite when they first came out, is op and probably didn’t receive the point increase that he deserved. The same can be said about Sentinels, and shooting overall.

 

Slaanesh does have transparent weaknesses, but there are numerous lists we can make within the casual setting that can go toe-to-toe with most other armies while having a good time, both for the opponent and yourself. Within a competitive setting, the issues begin to materialize more clearly; this is where the debates begin to arise on how to deal with balance.

My best answer is either going some sort of calvary-themed list that takes advantage of our high speed, high damage units, or a list that centers around the numerous named characters we have and one of our best units: Twinsouls. We also have really, really good endless spells that can be used to generate depravity while also dealing scary damage. I personally like Glutos a lot, he’s a beautiful model and is a jack-of-all-trades unit that accomplishes multiple roles (melee, debuff, magic, etc.) I see a lot of people talk about the recent twins that were released, bur don’t see as many people talk about Fatakros. Glutos is a sleeper that people have somewhat forgotten about due the point changes and disruption that the new meta has brought with it. For 475 points, he’s a decent point investment, but brings a lot of value to the table. 

 

I like to pair him with Painbringers because the models are beautiful and it’s fun to have a relatively (if not very overcosted) tanky unit act as a screen for the glutton. If I were playing competitively, I’d swap out the Painbringers for a unit of Twinsouls. From there, I’d explore what option I have. 
 

 

I dunno HoS combat had always been meh level up to unpredictably and situationally spikey. It was only double tapping KoS that made it reasonable to make a plan off. 5 Slickblades won't reliable beat 150 point battleline units. Combat units need to be able to bully min battleline without support, or very little support. 

I think HoS excel at getting around the board, and shooting. Which means you need some combat units to block space more than you need them to actually fight. 

The loss of RR saves on the S2D units I think for the most part rules them out of contention, maybe Chaos Knights might be useful still as budget Slickblades. 

I don't think you want to be fighting with GoS until you start summoning the better combat units; Exalted Chariots, 20+ Daemonettes, etc. My lists at the moment just keep adding more chaff because the diffused combat hitting power of the book hasn't been cutting it. 

[Gorsnik]

12 hours ago, Selpharia said:

Does anyone know if hellstriddr spruces have numbered pieces? Trying to assemble seekers without part numbers drove me half-mad

Yes.

[Selpharia]

Thanks! 

[azdimy]

I finally went through the point changes going though my Slaanesh collection and it went up 15%. Considering most of the S2D I have in my collection saw only a 5-10pt increase, did not go up  or actually went down like the mounted chaos lords or chaos chariots, that is quite a bit of increase for the hedonites

Highest increase being my 90 deamonettes going up from 990 to 1260pts while my 60 chaos warriors went from 1080 to 1200pts

In what world would people bring Deamonettes at these point costs?

[Elazar The Glorified]

Daemonettes are still our cheapest Battleline (in competitive play anyway) for number of bodies but I certainly can't pretend to have given them much thought as something to pay points for rather than summon... 

[Selpharia]

Daemonettes want to be in blocks of 20+ to act as an anvil unit. But doing that means doubling or trebling the premium on them. I’m pretty sure they’re the best option for 12 Depravity though.

[Jaskier]

36 minutes ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

Daemonettes are still our cheapest Battleline (in competitive play anyway) for number of bodies but I certainly can't pretend to have given them much thought as something to pay points for rather than summon... 

Even with the extra bodies, I don't see a good reason to run Daemonettes at their current points cost over Hellstriders competitively. Summoning them in is another story, of course.

To put it into perspective, you can get 30 Gors and 5 Hellstriders (for the Battleline slot) for 360 points versus the 420 points of 30 Daemonettes. The Gors hit less than half as hard as the Daemonettes, but if you're just after cheap bodies (who handily get a 4+ save in combat) I'd rather go down that route and have the spare change plus the extra cavalry unit. 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Jaskier

[azdimy]

8 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

Even with the extra bodies, I don't see a good reason to run Daemonettes at their current points cost over Hellstriders competitively. Summoning them in is another story, of course. 

100% this. My 90 deamonettes is a great summoning pool but will never be in my starting army at the current points

[Elazar The Glorified]

Agreed @Jaskier and @azdimy for Battleline, Blissbarbs and Hellstriders add so much more for similar numbers of bodies or costs. I think the Beasts definitely offer some useful cheap numbers but I'm still finding it tricky to justify the coalition slots to get a couple of Beasts units in (although coalition Chaos Spawn at least help at the list-crafting stage with bulking up the numbers to allow for some!) without instead seeing more use in something they have that we don't such as their monsters. I know the Chimera has been discussed and I keep looking at Ghorgons (more because I have so many of them). Does anyone have any lists (even if just in theory) where they're getting use out of Gors or Bestigors? 

Sometimes I creep a Great Bray Shaman in to some theory lists just for the extra insurance on Prized Sorcery.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Elazar The Glorified

[azdimy]

For comparison to my hedonites 15% point increase going into 3rd edition: my slaves to darkness collection alone went up a mere 3%, my blades of khorne 5%, my gloomspite gitz 8% and my idoneth deepkin 10%

Hedonites were already pointed in the new battletome with gw greatly inaccurate point calculator heavily hurting us based on our summoning. At that point,  our point increase going forward should have been fairly similar percentage wise to other factions which simply was not the case

[Enoby]

15 minutes ago, azdimy said:

For comparison to my hedonites 15% point increase going into 3rd edition: my slaves to darkness collection alone went up a mere 3%, my blades of khorne 5%, my gloomspite gitz 8% and my idoneth deepkin 10%

Hedonites were already pointed in the new battletome with gw greatly inaccurate point calculator heavily hurting us based on our summoning. At that point,  our point increase going forward should have been fairly similar percentage wise to other factions which simply was not the case

I wrote a post a while ago (before points reveals) about how 3e helped us more than many other armies, and while not all of it is updated, I so think most of it is accurate - we are much better (points notwithstanding) in 3rd edition. If GW thought our 2e points were accurate, then it makes sense from their perspective that we went up more than other armies. 

Of course, that's on the assumption that our 2e points are accurate which I think many of them are a bit off. Slaangors should not have got passed quality control, never mind going up in points. Shalaxi and the Keeper were overestimated by GW - yes, they're better, but not as much as GW think. Other models like Glutos went up a lot but they still feel good at their current points (and Glutos is now tankier than Archaon now Archaon's lost his rerolls to save). Sigvald is another who I'm surprised didn't go up more, but I'm not complaining. 

From playing games, we're better than I initially anticipated, though we do rely on summoning more. We look a lot worse than we perform. But on the other hand, we could use some of our units coming down in points (daemonettes, Slaangors, Painbringers, Keeper, and Shalaxi maybe the Lord of Pain, maybe the Shardspeaker - others can come down, but these need it the most imo). In the future, we can hope that we get an alternative to summoning, some more synergy, and a Slaangor rewrite.  

[azdimy]

32 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I wrote a post a while ago (before points reveals) about how 3e helped us more than many other armies, and while not all of it is updated, I so think most of it is accurate - we are much better (points notwithstanding) in 3rd edition. If GW thought our 2e points were accurate, then it makes sense from their perspective that we went up more than other armies. 

Of course, that's on the assumption that our 2e points are accurate which I think many of them are a bit off. Slaangors should not have got passed quality control, never mind going up in points. Shalaxi and the Keeper were overestimated by GW - yes, they're better, but not as much as GW think. Other models like Glutos went up a lot but they still feel good at their current points (and Glutos is now tankier than Archaon now Archaon's lost his rerolls to save). Sigvald is another who I'm surprised didn't go up more, but I'm not complaining. 

From playing games, we're better than I initially anticipated, though we do rely on summoning more. We look a lot worse than we perform. But on the other hand, we could use some of our units coming down in points (daemonettes, Slaangors, Painbringers, Keeper, and Shalaxi maybe the Lord of Pain, maybe the Shardspeaker - others can come down, but these need it the most imo). In the future, we can hope that we get an alternative to summoning, some more synergy, and a Slaangor rewrite.  

I did read your well crafted post relevant at the time. Unfortunately we lost a lot of those benefits on release day with the faq

Invaders generals dying got specifically  targeted to not give a +2 to heroic action for a command point, coalition heroes cannot be a general hurts invaders, painbringer reroll save is gone and makes them a lesser twinsoul in every way

My current game experience so far is that it s really not an msu edition and rend 1 is almost useless in this edition but an edition where 3+ save hero monsters ,rend 2+ hammer units and big shooty block with high rend or mortal wounds ouput are best. We have none of that hence my discontent when I find out we got the highest point increase of 25+ factions

[LeonBox]

I completely missed the amendment to Invaders and have been playing the +2 because of the core rule errata. Why on earth would they make the multiple general thing explicit in the core rules and then specifically exempt us in a different document also released in the same day? How many armies even have multiple generals? 

[KrispyXIV]

32 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

I completely missed the amendment to Invaders and have been playing the +2 because of the core rule errata. Why on earth would they make the multiple general thing explicit in the core rules and then specifically exempt us in a different document also released in the same day? How many armies even have multiple generals? 

Armies with two generals includes Archaon in Chaos god specific list, Morathi, any of the Soul-Blight characters in the right sub-faction...

Its hardly gamebreaking.  At all times this is an 'issue', you're still getting the extra CP having at least one general still alive.  Generally, I feel like the extra CP is a trap compared to Heroic Recovery or Finest Hour anyways...

[LeonBox]

15 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Armies with two generals includes Archaon in Chaos god specific list, Morathi, any of the Soul-Blight characters in the right sub-faction...

Its hardly gamebreaking.  At all times this is an 'issue', you're still getting the extra CP having at least one general still alive.  Generally, I feel like the extra CP is a trap compared to Heroic Recovery or Finest Hour anyways...

Absolutely, but it's such a strange example of the flip-flopping they so often do (battalion boxes released for Kragnos being invalidated by 3.0 mere weeks later, for instance). In this case, though, the flip-flopping happened on the same day!