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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


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I'm expecting total rewrites on most endless spells. Some spells cannot simply exist as is with double movement. Our wheels spell will shred. Mirror has double the chances to delete enemy heroes. 

Glutos and Archaon will be popular in chaos armies simply for being tanky to help control a potent endless spell. Imagine taking purple sun with Glutos and he can just the punches as it whirls around deleting models. 

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Remember that they also have Rend -1 and do mortal wounds on 6s to-wound in addition to normal damage.  The initial reaction here and elsewhere (moreso elsewhere) isn't surprising to me in the sl

Okay, I've got the time to go through some changes. I think, at the moment we have a good idea of what's going on with AoS 3. Of course, there could be a huge difference when we get the full rules, bu

Finished the Lord of Pain now

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17 minutes ago, Sorrow said:

Those rules do suggest that AoS 3. rules could lean our way, let us hope we stay on that course.

Aos 3 rules will help some armies and warscrolls a lot. The thing to watch out for are armies that don't need the help and have the cp generation to go ham. 

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2 hours ago, Jaskier said:

This book is not easy to win with, and that's why it is developing the reputation it is, but it is most certainly not weak. 

 

Long time Slaanesh player (since the first GHB) but first time poster here - hello to the wider Hedonites community.

Really comprehensive post & I do agree on most accounts, however I do feel the need to discuss this last point a bit. Having a difficult or high skill floor faction is fine, and in fact should be expected from something like Slaanesh, but the faction should also have a high skill ceiling payoff to match, which I don't think is quite there when compared to other factions with similar levels of skill expression. I have a buddy who plays Blades of Khorne who is probably the best player in our groups has expressed similar frustrations before, where he would have to work much harder and be more meticulous with positional plays just to get the same pay-off as a easier or better faction, and while I don't think Hedonites are nearly as bad as BoK, I do get somewhat similar vibes. 

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New stormcast guy just gained a better version of dexcessas free command ability (daemons only), im expecting synessa and dexcessas command stuff is not going to be unique and will be a fairly basic/standard thing in most forces.

 

New priest rules are cool, shame glutos' friend group doesnt get priest rule

New coherency rules also, might be worth keeping seeker units as only 5 models so they can more actively screen

Edited by MothmanDraws
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16 minutes ago, Cambyses said:

 

Long time Slaanesh player (since the first GHB) but first time poster here - hello to the wider Hedonites community.

Really comprehensive post & I do agree on most accounts, however I do feel the need to discuss this last point a bit. Having a difficult or high skill floor faction is fine, and in fact should be expected from something like Slaanesh, but the faction should also have a high skill ceiling payoff to match, which I don't think is quite there when compared to other factions with similar levels of skill expression. I have a buddy who plays Blades of Khorne who is probably the best player in our groups has expressed similar frustrations before, where he would have to work much harder and be more meticulous with positional plays just to get the same pay-off as a easier or better faction, and while I don't think Hedonites are nearly as bad as BoK, I do get somewhat similar vibes. 

I would have liked something similar to Tzeentch's agendas (so we can show off for Slaanesh) or Necron protocols (as in we call what our 'pleasure' is for each turn). Just to give another layer of rewards for completing great plays and add to the good part of the book, i.e. how it lets us create more synergy through player moves as opposed to just being a mechanical thing you can exploit in list-building.

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This looks promising for us:

"The new board size means their prodigious damage output will be in range of the enemy faster than ever before, giving you even more opportunity to strike hard with their lightning hammers."

Hopefully this means the space between armies will shrink, and not just board size. Our 14" move currently isn't good enough for a reliable first turn charge, but if this shrinks to 18 then...

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2 hours ago, Cambyses said:

 

Long time Slaanesh player (since the first GHB) but first time poster here - hello to the wider Hedonites community.

Really comprehensive post & I do agree on most accounts, however I do feel the need to discuss this last point a bit. Having a difficult or high skill floor faction is fine, and in fact should be expected from something like Slaanesh, but the faction should also have a high skill ceiling payoff to match, which I don't think is quite there when compared to other factions with similar levels of skill expression. I have a buddy who plays Blades of Khorne who is probably the best player in our groups has expressed similar frustrations before, where he would have to work much harder and be more meticulous with positional plays just to get the same pay-off as a easier or better faction, and while I don't think Hedonites are nearly as bad as BoK, I do get somewhat similar vibes. 

I can only say thank you for writing this. Nothing more can I add.

Also, your models are beautiful, Glutos and Slickblades especially!

Welcome!

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Another note on Glutos, if the lifeswarm remains mostly unchanged, the fact it's bound to him means there's considerably less chance it backfires. Glutos getting 4d3 healing a battle round is looking tasty...

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Priest gaining access to generic prayers anyone  can use is nice. Granted warshrine is only way to use it at this time for slaanesh. The warshrine is a totem so benifits from command changes. I wonder if armies will start to see more priests. Because 6+ after save would be nice on Daemonettes and well any unit we have that lacks it.

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We have no priests; we have ONE caster with casting bonuses (talking about our book, no S2D). I absolutely fail to see how these rules changes benefit Hedonites more than several other factions that are not in need of help. 

And regardless of power level I'm still baffled at the absolute lack of fluff for our book, both in new lore or in the warscrolls (usually defaulting to "6s to wound = MW") in what   seems to be unwillingness to come up with fluffy interesting rules -see comet landing Annihilators- or just a rushed product. I would love to field Myrmidons and feel like they are a distinct unit and not just worse Slick blades, f. E. 

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I know Glutos is already very much a grab-bag of awesome abilities, but he explicitly does have a priestess companion who explicitly does cast a 'prayer'. It's honestly nice that prayers are getting some counterplay, being as they were basically non-interactive spells previously. 

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11 minutes ago, CeleFAZE said:

I'm rather surprised that Synessa isn't a priest. I wonder if we'll see that keyword added to some units at the start of the edition.

I might be missing something, but why would she be a priest? 

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39 minutes ago, Carnith said:

I might be missing something, but why would she be a priest? 

As the voice of Slaanesh, she is effectively a direct conduit for the corrupting influence on mortals. Effectively preaching the dark prince to the masses, and her weapon seems more like a symbol of office, like you'd see in the clergy.

Honestly Glutos probably has a better argument for the keyword, though I feel that perhaps the enrapturess might also qualify.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Benkei said:

We have no priests; we have ONE caster with casting bonuses (talking about our book, no S2D). I absolutely fail to see how these rules changes benefit Hedonites more than several other factions that are not in need of help. 

We have two casters with bonuses - Glutos and the Contorted Epitome, both of which are good units.

The priest rules don't benefit us, but the endless spell rules do. Why? Well currently endless spells do damage before the turn and so I don't think interact with depravity besides the first turn they're summoned. 

With the new rules, if we cast something like Wheels of Excruciation, we can run it over the enemy, get depravity from it, and it's bound to us so the opponent can't stop it running over them again unless they dispell. It turns the depravity generation from endless spells from pretty small to quite considerable.

Also, if the opponent chucks one at us, we at least gain depravity points from it. 

Why do you think this doesn't benefit us more than other factions, who are just gaining bonus damage and no interaction with their allegiance abilities?  

Edited by Enoby
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7 hours ago, Benkei said:

And regardless of power level I'm still baffled at the absolute lack of fluff for our book, both in new lore or in the warscrolls (usually defaulting to "6s to wound = MW") in what   seems to be unwillingness to come up with fluffy interesting rules -see comet landing Annihilators- or just a rushed product. I would love to field Myrmidons and feel like they are a distinct unit and not just worse Slick blades, f. E. 

Sorry, meant to respond to this in my previous post above!

Our book could have advanced the narrative more, I agree.

But I've looked at other warscrolls and I think our's have very similar levels of fluff, if we're not comparing them to LRLs.

For example, Painbringers vs Chaos Warriors: big defensive warriors, chaos warriors have a MW save and a way to get rerolling saves if they are in a unit of 10 (which is more awkward with the new coherency rules as 5 won't get to attack), and they lack rend. Painbringers have a rerolling save from the get go as they have very quick reflexes and a massive shield, and they show their skill in combat by doing MWs in addition to damage instead of ending the sequence like most units. Compare them to Blightkings who get better exploding 6s and a low chance to hurt/heal another unit. Compare them to Bloodwarriors, who fight (dissapointingly poorly) after death and do MWs on 6s to save. Tzaangors do have a load more rules though, to be fair. It seems like our Painbringers are comparable to the other semi elite chaos troops ability wise, and they about represent their fluff as highly skilled warriors (they even get -1 rend, which is something 3/5s of true chaos seems to lack). 

Twinsouls have a fluff rule where they constantly switch personalities and so playstyle (and have 8" move, which is easily overlooked), which is more fluffy imo than doing MWs on a charge. Compare them to chosen, who do MWs and let Slaves to Darkness reroll wounds if close, I'd say they were comparable. Compare to Skullrepeaers (who used to have super interesting rules), they now have a conditional reroll to hit, MWs on one weapon choice, and MW chance upon death. Compare to Blightlords, who have the exact same rules as Blightkings but a 5+ ward in addition. Tzaangor enlightened have a battleshock rule and a rule for benefiting from attacking last. 

I won't go through every unit, but I think our new units are about as fluffy as most other Chaos. Could we be fluffier? Yes, certainly. Are some other warscrolls fluffier? Also yes. But I don't think our warscrolls are particularly unfluffy. And I'd say most of our daemon warscrolls (esp fiends) are really fluffy! 

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New coherency rules represent a buff to some units and a nerf to others. Or said in other manner, some units are nerfed and the ones that dont are now more valuable. Specially Twinsouls, since they got 2inch range they can mantain coherency while still fighting in units of 10. Painbrigers got to stay at 5 man squads or they loose half their manpower. Slaangors benefit from it too, but I don't think is enough to make them playable. In fact they are better in Minimum Size Units to have more gilded weapons and to not spill wounds between them since they are so weak. Slickblades got 2inch range, im not sure but i believe you can turn them sideways and fight in two ranks (except for the mounts in the second row). Daemonettes are gonna be hard to maneuver and pile in around the enemy units while keeping coherency. Fiends are a big looser because if you deploy 6 you can fight only with 3 until one of them die, maybe sideways the back row can use the stingers that got 2inch reach.

This rule is really good because vastly reduces the power of big blobs. There will be less charge->delete situations and more back and forth, with more minimum sized units engaging and making the game interactive.

The really big bad thing about this. Dosn't affect shooting at all. Is a big big nerf to mele/big big buff to shooting. At least Blissbarb Archers and Blissbarb Seekers become more powerful.

Edited by Yoid
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One big thing to note is the game as a whole will become more about MSU. And considering how our DP system works, and how our wheels endless spell works, we're going to love MSU.

But I agree with @Yoid - we have some winners and losers. Thankfully I don't think Painbringers really get much from being in 10s anyway, so losing the option doesn't hurt much.

Also, daemonettes being the only daemon core troop on 25mm bases is a huge help. Would hate to be a bloodletter...

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Are Dexcessa and Synessa's loadouts on the model and rules mixed up? 

Dexcessa apparently has a scourge but not on her model, whereas Synessa seems to be holding something that could resemble some kind of whip on her lower arms?

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8 minutes ago, Adammck66 said:

Are Dexcessa and Synessa's loadouts on the model and rules mixed up? 

Dexcessa apparently has a scourge but not on her model, whereas Synessa seems to be holding something that could resemble some kind of whip on her lower arms?

The Scourge is the staff. it was described in the first reveal article of the twins.

One use the sceptre to shoot and the other use the staff to melee.

The other stuff is just adornments. Is the same with the wings. Lepidoptera means related to butterflies, but one is obviously a peacock and not a butterfly.

I build my Synessa without the hanging thing in the hands and she looks much better to me. Im reducing the adornments and clothes to minimum so she show more of that incredibly sculpet body.

The model got incredibly detailed thighs, but once you put the crotch clothing they are no longer visible, what a waste.

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Huh, I assumed it would be a whip like most scourges.

Maybe they made a quick u-turn after realising their mistake? Because whatever Synessa is holding looks like I could be some kind of whip.

Would explain Dexcessa having less impaling talon attacks too since she has less free hands

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If buffs cap, these new command abilities look very nice for us:

Screenshot_20210608-163203_Facebook.jpg.f89c288baceef7d65b89a0253c6a651f.jpg

So, a couple of things to note:

1) If buffs cap, then use lacking +1 to hit etc doesn't matter because we have crazy CP generation from Invaders (with the new general ability and hero ability, we're looking at about 6-7 a round, depending on turn order). If CP resets then we can go ham every fight phase

2) Note the wording "That unit must receive this command" this is not on all of the shown command abilities so it suggests something different. This could well be what Synessa's "If this model issues a command to one friendly unit" refers to. Of course, we don't know yet - it may well be that a unit leader can issue commands to their own unit (if this is the case, why have the restriction?). But if not, then Synessa is looking nice at being able to give commands to anyone they feel like

I am concerned about MW shooting from Kruelboyz, but that's one army. Also, overwatch sounds strong until you realise that people are getting like 2-3 command points a round. If they spend it on OW, they're not spending it elsewhere. Also the Masque has a niche use of tying up a unit to prevent OW.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Enoby said:

If buffs cap, these new command abilities look very nice for us:

Screenshot_20210608-163203_Facebook.jpg.f89c288baceef7d65b89a0253c6a651f.jpg

So, a couple of things to note:

1) If buffs cap, then use lacking +1 to hit etc doesn't matter because we have crazy CP generation from Invaders (with the new general ability and hero ability, we're looking at about 6-7 a round, depending on turn order). If CP resets then we can go ham every fight phase

2) Note the wording "That unit must receive this command" this is not on all of the shown command abilities so it suggests something different. This could well be what Synessa's "If this model issues a command to one friendly unit" refers to. Of course, we don't know yet - it may well be that a unit leader can issue commands to their own unit (if this is the case, why have the restriction?). But if not, then Synessa is looking nice at being able to give commands to anyone they feel like

I am concerned about MW shooting from Kruelboyz, but that's one army. Also, overwatch sounds strong until you realise that people are getting like 2-3 command points a round. If they spend it on OW, they're not spending it elsewhere. Also the Masque has a niche use of tying up a unit to prevent OW.

The "This unit must receive it" is just weird ruleswriting to explain that you cannot buff other unit that is not the one being activated. Nothing more. You can issue the command from anywhere, but just that unit can receive it in that specific moment.

Reactive shooting is a direct buff to synessa, she ignores the penalty, so she can shoot an additional time if the enemy charge nearby. That plus the monster stomp make her deal a ton of MWs before the enemy got the chance to activate and fight.

Having some Blissbarbs backing our units got more value now too.

Edited by Yoid
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"On the flip side, you really need to think about Battleshock now, as only one unit can benefit from the Inspiring Presence command ability."

so inspiring presence can be used to save one unit from battleshock from the sound of it. So multiple battleshocks happen better choose wisely.

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