AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[AngryPanda]

Truthfully, and I really do t mean to be the pessimist, but so far nothing to me seems to be interesting besides the Lord of Gluttony and Sigvald. Everything is just very overpriced, and doesn’t do anything well. Fiendbloods are the worst example, and I don’t know how they managed to release them with stats and rules like that; the other units are either just ok or below average. 
 

I'm happy to say that painbringers are probably the “best” new unit, but to say they’re good is really stretching it. The +4 reroll save is nice, but only two attacks at damage 1? Plus they only have 2 wounds. 10 painbringers would cost you 300 points, against a Mortek Guard blob of 20 (260 points) they’ll drop like flies. Painbringers are subpar, and fall to dedicated melee units. 

[Enoby]

2 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

Truthfully, and I really do t mean to be the pessimist, but so far nothing to me seems to be interesting besides the Lord of Gluttony and Sigvald. Everything is just very overpriced, and doesn’t do anything well. Fiendbloods are the worst example, and I don’t know how they managed to release them with stats and rules like that; the other units are either just ok or below average. 
 

I'm happy to say that painbringers are probably the “best” new unit, but to say they’re good is really stretching it. The +4 reroll save is nice, but only two attacks at damage 1? Plus they only have 2 wounds. 10 painbringers would cost you 300 points, against a Mortek Guard blob of 20 (260 points) they’ll drop like flies. Painbringers are subpar, and fall to dedicated melee units. 

On the other hand, I think the stats of the units are all workable and it's the price that's throwing people off. Imagine if Painbringers were 100pts for 5, they'd seem a tonne better and I think people would be more upbeat about their rules.

I think we're costed so high as we're paying for our summoning through model cost and they don't want a repeat of 2019 where our summoning was crazy good and just plain unfun. If we try this army out and the summoning is underwhelming or the feel just isn't there, then I think we'll have a much better case to stand on and best thing is that points are by far the easiest thing to fix. I almost think the cost is set at the upper limit and ready to come down, unless we come off as very OP

[Poryague]

4 minutes ago, Enoby said:

On the other hand, I think the stats of the units are all workable and it's the price that's throwing people off. Imagine if Painbringers were 100pts for 5, they'd seem a tonne better and I think people would be more upbeat about their rules.

I think we're costed so high as we're paying for our summoning through model cost and they don't want a repeat of 2019 where our summoning was crazy good and just plain unfun. If we try this army out and the summoning is underwhelming or the feel just isn't there, then I think we'll have a much better case to stand on and best thing is that points are by far the easiest thing to fix. I almost think the cost is set at the upper limit and ready to come down, unless we come off as very OP

The locus has been toned down the army lacks synergy. It's still glass. So summoning would have to be really good. 

[Overread]

Agreed and its encouraging to see GW more cautious about making them overpowered verses underpowered. There's a few that seem rather weak in warscrolls at present, however some synergies might appear that boost them. 

 

On the whole its encouraging that no one has yet seen a super-power combo like before. Because that, as noted earlier, means a greater chance that the army has multiple functional powerful builds from different approaches. Seeker heavy; demon heavy; mortal heavy; leader heavy - etc.... basically multiple different flavours for your plate of excess (see see I did a food pun!) Far better than 1 flavour that overpowers the dish. 

[Slaangor19]

So it looks like my Depraved Drove list is dead in the water. I'm really kinda bummed about how the Slaangor turned out. 

How are Sigvald, Painbringers, and the Archers looking?  Could a phalanx of Siggy and the golden boys with some units of Archers and Cav in support do okay?

[Enoby]

1 minute ago, Overread said:

Agreed and its encouraging to see GW more cautious about making them overpowered verses underpowered. There's a few that seem rather weak in warscrolls at present, however some synergies might appear that boost them. 

 

On the whole its encouraging that no one has yet seen a super-power combo like before. Because that, as noted earlier, means a greater chance that the army has multiple functional powerful builds from different approaches. Seeker heavy; demon heavy; mortal heavy; leader heavy - etc.... basically multiple different flavours for your plate of excess (see see I did a food pun!) Far better than 1 flavour that overpowers the dish. 

Yeah, I think it's a very good sign we've not seen any unit or combo that's crazy good. For a while now, there's been a common complaint of power creep within AoS so I'm glad to see that this book doesn't seem to be adding to it. If we'd have ended up with something absolutely ridiculously strong then it may have been cool for a few weeks but it would have only hurt the game as a whole. 

If this is the first AoS 3 book, then it might be a good sign that they're trying to tone things down and maybe even decrease army sizes (like in 9th edition). Pure speculation, mind. 

[Benkei]

Seeing how boring the new warscrolls are i think im gonna hold on the purchases

Edited February 12, 2021 by Benkei

[Overread]

I don't know if this is even a 3.0 book. I'm not picking up any hints that anyone has spotted anything mechanically "new" to 2.0 in the army list or content. I know Daughters have cleaned up on things like "fully within" limits on auras which is a common feature in 2.0. These books might well be closer to 2.5 books than 3.0. Which means either 3.0 is a long way off or it isn't actually going to make huge sweeping changes to the core rules.

[AngryPanda]

18 minutes ago, Enoby said:

On the other hand, I think the stats of the units are all workable and it's the price that's throwing people off. Imagine if Painbringers were 100pts for 5, they'd seem a tonne better and I think people would be more upbeat about their rules.

I think we're costed so high as we're paying for our summoning through model cost and they don't want a repeat of 2019 where our summoning was crazy good and just plain unfun. If we try this army out and the summoning is underwhelming or the feel just isn't there, then I think we'll have a much better case to stand on and best thing is that points are by far the easiest thing to fix. I almost think the cost is set at the upper limit and ready to come down, unless we come off as very OP

I very much agree that if painbringers were 100 point that it would be far more reasonable. 200 points for a 20 wound unit would be something worth considering, and I hope that GW revalues some of the point costs for these units. 
 

So far, as I look at the battletomb more my stance that the units are underwhelming for their point costs is unchanged. However, as you mentioned with the right point adjustments it will be far more balanced. 
 

The only two units I feel they really did dirty were the Fiendbloods and Slickblade Seekers. 
the Fiendbloods need a overhaul in terms of point costs and rules: they’re not the shock assault unit that was promised. The Slickblades are in a better place, however they still need some reworks to make viable on the charge.

Even the battalions don’t play to our strengths, they just seem very boring and out of place. Not to mention the lack of synergy with StD and BoC. I’m going to write an email to them later;  I’m not angry just a bit confused and disappointed at some of the balancing within the battletomb. Fighting chaos of any variety should be scary, not underwhelming.  I’m also not saying we should be overpowered, but there should be a sense of “oh snap he brought painbringers” when you seen them approach. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by AngryPanda

[Inferno]

10 minutes ago, Benkei said:

Seeing how boring the new warwcrolls are i think im gonna hold on the purchases

same here, 

[Poryague]

5 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

I very much agree that if painbringers were 100 point that it would be far more reasonable. 200 points for a 20 wound unit would be something worth considering, and I hope that GW revalues some of the point costs for these units. 
 

So far, as I look at the battletomb more my stance that the units are underwhelming for their point costs is unchanged. However, as you mentioned with the right point adjustments it will be far more balanced. 
 

The only two units I feel they really did dirty were the Fiendbloods and Slickblade Seekers. 
the Fiendbloods need a overhaul in terms of point costs and rules: they’re not the shock assault unit that was promised. The Slickblades are in a better place, however they still need some reworks to make viable on the charge.

Even the battalions don’t play to our strengths, they just seem very boring and out of place. Not to mention the lack of synergy with StD and BoC. I’m going to write an email to them later;  I’m not angry just a bit confused and disappointed at some of the balancing within the battletomb. Fighting chaos of any variety should be scary, not underwhelming.  I’m also not saying we should be overpowered, but there should be a sense of “oh snap he brought painbringers” when you seen them approach. 

Painbringers are in between warriors of chaos (which are 90 pts) and chosen (140 pts) in terms of mechanics. Why are they more then chosen does not make sense. Also those units have option to synergize with other units within there tome and those synergies are good. It seems there are some units that are out of whack point wise.

[Benkei]

27 minutes ago, Overread said:

Agreed and its encouraging to see GW more cautious about making them overpowered verses underpowered. There's a few that seem rather weak in warscrolls at present, however some synergies might appear that boost them. 

 

On the whole its encouraging that no one has yet seen a super-power combo like before. Because that, as noted earlier, means a greater chance that the army has multiple functional powerful builds from different approaches. Seeker heavy; demon heavy; mortal heavy; leader heavy - etc.... basically multiple different flavours for your plate of excess (see see I did a food pun!) Far better than 1 flavour that overpowers the dish. 

When most of the new warscrolls are just variations of the same 3+/4+/-1/1 statline with little or no variation of rules I'd say that's no flavour. Hopefully at least Fiends are usable now, Glutos is great and the Sigvald mini is worth the money just to paint him. The rest, meh...  I mean, our ELITE troops are basically Liberators 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Benkei

[Yoid]

Is like the guy writing the points readed Slaangor profile as every model having both weapons, not realizing that only the leader of the unit use the second one.

Slickblades definitely need to have a damage value of 2 or D3 in the spears, even if it is only while charging, they are really weirdly priced. But it seems like movement got an increase in points and we are paying that price across the army.

New Fane is really interesting, it works as a summoning point, so it looks like you no longer need heroes alive to summon, you can use the fane. The sacrificing 1 wound or artifact is the same but now give +1 to hit instead of rerolling. Sacrificing 1 wound now got a really big value in DP since the table of summoning is way cheaper.

Another thing i like (at casual level) is the new rules that generate DP in the three hosts. They generate a lot of DP compared to the price of summoning and seem quite fair (if anything the Godseekers rule seem powerful)

[Enoby]

4 minutes ago, Yoid said:

Another thing i like (at casual level) is the new rules that generate DP in the three hosts. They generate a lot of DP compared to the price of summoning and seem quite fair (if anything the Godseekers rule seem powerful)

I think this is a good point to bring up. Beforehand, D3 or D6 depravity was kind of an afterthought - if you got it, nice, but who cares if not? Now it's a much bigger deal and it seems a lot easier to get too (at least for Pretenders) 

[Jaskier]

1 hour ago, AngryPanda said:

I'm happy to say that painbringers are probably the “best” new unit, but to say they’re good is really stretching it. The +4 reroll save is nice, but only two attacks at damage 1? Plus they only have 2 wounds. 10 painbringers would cost you 300 points, against a Mortek Guard blob of 20 (260 points) they’ll drop like flies. Painbringers are subpar, and fall to dedicated melee units. 

Remember that they also have Rend -1 and do mortal wounds on 6s to-wound in addition to normal damage. 

The initial reaction here and elsewhere (moreso elsewhere) isn't surprising to me in the slightest. These units are all priced because of how the new Depravity system works; that's why we've seen Keepers get a major points drop, and small heroes get a points bump. If you look at those changes in the context of the old book, of course they don't make sense because our old book encouraged one very specific playstyle and type of unit. Once people start to understand that everything - particularly our ranged units - have been priced with the new Depravity system in mind, they'll come around to just how good this book actually is. 

Something I've already noted is that both our healing spells are massively improved, becoming easier to cast and getting an improvement (in Born's case) and our Greater Daemons now have access to a spell that lets them fly. The classic Seeker Cavalcade battalion is about to get a new lease on life thanks to the addition of Slickblade Seekers who, for 50-60 (depending on the variant) points more than Hellstriders, are much tankier and hit way harder (again, like the Myrmidesh, those attacks do mortal wounds in addition to normal damage!) and thus are going to be an absolute nightmare for opponents when they start pulling all the crazy 6" pile-in shenanigans (which also means, on our turns, they will always fight first no matter what.) Slickblades are going to be incredibly popular once people figure this out, mark my words.

Myrmidesh and Twinsouls might not look great compared to Chaos Warriors, but the better comparison is actually to Chosen. They are tougher or punchier than Chosen, and have access to a far greater suite of potential buffs - but don't buff other units, of course. Myrmidesh are better than Chaos Warriors in small units because they retain their re-rolls, whereas Twinsouls are better in bigger units thanks to their 2" reach. 10 Twinsouls with a Lord of Pain is one of those no-brainer choices that will do very well; don't underestimate their lack of Rend or mortal wounds, because if you compare them to Myrmidesh who have both those abilities, the Twinsouls hit harder against every save bracket except the 2+ and will benefit more from other buffs. Slaangors aren't great, yes, but they're workable. That's still a fair bit of damage on the charge from a unit with a small footprint, an advantage a lot of players really underestimate. 

Sigvald looks overpriced next to Eltharion, sure, but Eltharion doesn't ignore after-saves - which alone means Sigvald acts as a spoiler choice for certain units/armies in the game (like the newly updated Daughters of Khaine!) - nor does he generate summoning points or exist in an army that can easily heal lost wounds like Sigvald does. Blissbarb are priced in a way that discourages spamming them to farm Depravity; our melee options are more efficient, but lack the means to generate those summoning points from afar - that's what we call a fair trade-off! Glutos also looks like a very interesting centrepiece model, with a command ability that has special synergies with other big monsters. The Shardspeaker is pricey, but consider that her +1 to-wound buff is one of the absolute best buffs a Slaanesh army could get, and -1 to-wound is still one of the best debuffs around. If she's casting, she's worth her points; even if she isn't, that buff of hers is still worth the price of admission. 

Our daemons also came out looking strong. Yes, those small heroes - especially the chariots - got price hikes, but consider the new rules surrounding them. Improved spells. More units for them to buff now that heroes aren't the bread and butter anymore. Heck, an actual place in the army now that Keepers aren't the be-all end-all! Exalted Chariots in particular were absolutely needing a points increase; consider that their insane mortal wound generation did not generate Depravity in the old book, but it does now...and those abilities target multiple units. Side-note; Exalted Chariots come on massive bases. Mmm. What about Keepers, then? Oh yes, they can't target themselves anymore. They also got a lot cheaper, and are possibly even easier to summon than before...and you will actually be running things that aren't Keepers now, so they'll actually have units to buff beyond themselves for a change. They will also have a far easier time healing themselves thanks to the spell changes, and can now freely take a spell that lets them fly. Who needs a Thermalrider Cloak, anyway?

Seekers and Daemonettes remain solid options, with Seekers priced reflective of their incredible mobility and potential to alpha strike. Fiends now finally have a place with the Depravity changes; they can be tough to shift once they reach combat but will most certainly be bleeding wounds, and hit quite hard relative to their points. They fit the new summoning generation to a tee, and happen to be a strong alternative to a Keeper - they always were in a sense, but the old books' focus on heroes rendered them irrelevant; not so anymore!

Lastly, one thing I've not seen mentioned is the change to the Fane. Yes, chain summoning is gone, and that sucks; I've won a fair few GT games with it, but I can also admit it was stupid and needed to go. On that note, we got one really good change in that regard; you can now summon Daemons directly from the Fane! You don't get a 'refund' anymore, but the fact remains that you no longer need a living hero to spend your Depravity points. Gone are the days when you have to hide a hero in a backfield position just for the chance to summon your reinforcements, as are the days when your last hero fails that crucial save and renders all those Depravity points worthless. Of course the Fane can be zoned out, but hey, that's still much better than before, particularly as we don't need (or necessarily want) to invest as much into heroes as we used to. The new buff it gives works out really well once you remember that Slaanesh has perhaps the most widespread access to re-roll 1s to-hit in the game. 

Overall, there's a lot to be excited about. I feel this is a strong book that crucially will give us the diversity everyone has been craving. Many of these units are untested and unproven, and I don't just mean the new ones; Fiends, Seekers and more never really got the chance to shine in the old book because of its pinpoint focus on heroes and heroes alone. That's all changed, so before you come in and cry foul about how weak or even how overpowered the army might seem, remember that this book has opened up a whole new world of possibilities, and will play almost nothing like the old book unless you want it to. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Jaskier

[shinros]

Jaskier, you basically have just said what was on my mind. Good job! Great post!

[umpac]

12 minutes ago, Yoid said:

Slickblades definitely need to have a damage value of 2 or D3 in the spears, even if it is only while charging, they are really weirdly priced. But it seems like movement got an increase in points and we are paying that price across the army.

You think? I feel like slickblades are proabably one of the best of the new units. They put 13 wounds into 4+ save which isn't a bad deal for 200pts. They're also 10pts per wound which is better than most cav (though their save is worse). The move is obviously where they really shine, with 14" and RR charges. They're disgusting at stealing objectives and are actually fine even as straight up shock cav. I think the Blissbard seekers are way, way worse.

[Gistradagis]

To have a bit of a break from the discussion, I just wanted to point out that our beautiful prince literally wears his armour like this. Truly a prince of excess. I now want to run him without the lower cape, to show his assets in all their glory while playing.

[Poryague]

5 minutes ago, umpac said:

You think? I feel like slickblades are proabably one of the best of the new units. They put 13 wounds into 4+ save which isn't a bad deal for 200pts. They're also 10pts per wound which is better than most cav (though their save is worse). The move is obviously where they really shine, with 14" and RR charges. They're disgusting at stealing objectives and are actually fine even as straight up shock cav. I think the Blissbard seekers are way, way worse.

6 to wound does a mw in addition. So they can do decent damage.

[Jaskier]

9 minutes ago, umpac said:

You think? I feel like slickblades are proabably one of the best of the new units. They put 13 wounds into 4+ save which isn't a bad deal for 200pts. They're also 10pts per wound which is better than most cav (though their save is worse). The move is obviously where they really shine, with 14" and RR charges. They're disgusting at stealing objectives and are actually fine even as straight up shock cav. I think the Blissbard seekers are way, way worse.

Agreed. The comments in here dissing Slickblades are super confusing to me. They're easily the best cavalry unit in the book - especially in Seeker Cavalcade - and I personally don't think any of our cavalry options are bad overall. In a meta with lots of mortal wounds and high Rend, them having 4 Wounds is actually preferable to having less Wounds and a 4+ save. I'm absolutely certain a lot of people aren't catching on to the fact Slickblades and Myrmidesh do mortal wounds in addition to normal damage. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Jaskier

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

Just to clarify, what was the complaint about Slaangor? Too much glass, not enough cannon?

[Enoby]

6 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

Just to clarify, what was the complaint about Slaangor? Too much glass, not enough cannon?

Yeah, pretty much - they don't do loads of damage on their own and they don't stand up to a punch. We'll see how they perform on the table, though, before calling anything

 

[Fyrenn]

15 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

Just to clarify, what was the complaint about Slaangor? Too much glass, not enough cannon?

i mean, as someone with beasts it's just.. bad. There are a lot of comparisons, but it doesn't have much of an attack profile, or any synergies, no defenses... idk, it's almost like it was intended to have two of the claw weapons or something.  it was compared to be costed higher than dragon ogres, with far less damage output... and those guys aren't the best.

so... for (some points) points you get a few dudes where it's like.. 3 average attacks that do one damage and -1 rend.  one boss that gets 2 extra attacks with 2 damage... and an after battle effect to maybe do a MW per slaangor still alive.  but with a weak save and few HP, it's just.. i dunno.  it seems a waste is all.

I really think they could have twice the attacks for the costs, tbh.  I mean they don't even get brayherd, warherd, or gor keywords.  if they had warherd, for example, they'd at least have bloodgreed in a BoC list.  they've got.... weirdly... nothing.  

Even bullgors get attacks with their horns.  a bonus couple horn attacks per guy. SOMETHING. it just.. seems... so disappointing.

It's legitimately weaker than BOC warscrolls, and that's not easy 🙂

Edited February 13, 2021 by Fyrenn

[Overread]

23 minutes ago, Gistradagis said:

To have a bit of a break from the discussion, I just wanted to point out that our beautiful prince literally wears his armour like this. Truly a prince of excess. I now want to run him without the lower cape, to show his assets in all their glory while playing.

I'm still trying to work out how his - ah - thigh cape works! I can only assume he never spreads his legs that wide in battle.

(yes yes I feel dirty typing that)

[Poryague]

9 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Yeah, pretty much - they don't do loads of damage on their own and they don't stand up to a punch. We'll see how they perform on the table, though, before calling anything

 

Just compare them to bull gors another 3 man unit that's 140. Slaangor are hot garbage at 140. Maybe 100 110 would alleviate some of that.